Staling FW2 to Punish Projectiles

[Valamway]

Is it worth?

I personally think it is, 100% of the time.
It's free damage and you scare your opponent into being more careful with their spacing.
Plus, it's not like Zelda lacks killmove punishes

Most of the projectiles in this game are punishable on reaction, and all are on read.
So they'll either learn their lesson and keep much farther away or they'll take free damage and possibly free offstage setups from you all set.

But what do you guys think?
FW2 is a good killmove, and it's a shame to use it to punish in situations where it won't kill.
Do any of you wait until the opponent makes a mistake at high percent to punish for a guaranteed kill, hoping they don't know how free it can be?

 

[Rickster]

I do sometimes, but only if I have a good idea of their projectile pattern. If you don't read them right, you're going to eat a big punish and also look like a FG Zelda :^)

But yeah I like to wait until higher %s. I've never had any issues staling it.

 

[ZombieBran]

It works well but anyone who knows the Zelda matchup a little won't throw out laggy projectiles like that.
It's still helpful because it limits their options.

 

[Rickster]

If you want to be as safe as possible trying this, you should try and ledge cancel it. It's nearly free if you do that. Just don't accidentally SD, lol.

 

[PUK]

It's completely useless. 12% max is bad, if something is laggy enough to be punished by FW2 you can get way more.
Unless they are at like 120%, like boom dead, but that's it.

 

[ZombieBran]

It's completely useless. 12% max is bad, if something is laggy enough to be punished by FW2 you can get way more.
Unless they are at like 120%, like boom dead, but that's it.

How can Zelda reach across the distance and punish without getting hit by the projectile otherwise?

You know you're not supposed to start FW as a reaction to their projectile unless they're really laggy (Link, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, etc). You have to read the throw.

 

[Valamway]

I figured it would be assumed that by punish, I meant a safe, close to max range punish.
I realize that your opponent shouldn't be making mistakes like that, but everyone makes mistakes and my question was about that situation arising.

A projectile that is punishable is obviously easily shielded or avoided, but should you let your opponent get away with something like that?
I've never really had an issue with it staling either, per se, but using it for safe punishes that won't kill do stale it a little bit.

 

[KarmaCastle]

It's completely useless. 12% max is bad, if something is laggy enough to be punished by FW2 you can get way more.
Unless they are at like 120%, like boom dead, but that's it.

I think we're underestimating FW2 here.

I once came back from being behind by FW2ing a Rosalina.

She was at 37% before I hit her :^)

FW2 on side-stage kills consistently between 70-90, 50-70 if they're charging a smash. Exceptions being extreme heavyweights, obv.

Though when it comes to punishing projectiles with FW2, I tend to use it as they're charging/holding the projectile. Using it after the projectile has been fired is definitely borderline pointless and will be punished.

 

[Valamway]

Yeah, I posted this as more of a "theorycrafting group-discussion" thing, not so much as a "this should be spammed constantly" thing.

Like, I realize that going for punishes when there's nothing to punish just puts you in a bad spot.
But there are times when Fox or the Mario Bros go for a neutralB within FW range, whether by input error, bad habits, or lack of matchup knowledge.
And when they do, you can react fast enough for a guaranteed punish.

So my question for you gorls is, what are the pros and cons of taking the guaranteed FW2, and is it always worth it to go for?

In a purely theory sense, getting it gives you:

• Free damage
• Positional and frame advantage (or at the very least an instant reset to neutral)
• Possible offstage setups (mid-percents)
• Possible kills (high percent)

I'm trying to think of the drawbacks of going for it, even at low percent.
But other than the slight knockback staling causing later reads or elevators to not kill quite as early (unless you get some rage from taking damage in the meantime, in which case it's pretty much a wash), the only disadvantages I can think of are mental.
Your opponent will most likely be scared into being more careful with zoning correctly around FW.
So not only is the move now stale, it's now less likely that your opponent will make that same mistake for you to get the punish as a kill.
This isn't fully a con, however, because if they are scared into being more careful, then you've probably gotten into their head at least a little and can afford to be more aggressive, which greatly benefits Zelda.

On the other hand, if you let a poorly spaced or timed projectile go unpunished at low percents, they may continue to apply unsafe pressure that way, not realizing that it's unsafe.
This would only be true if they do not have good matchup knowledge at all, but even someone with fantastic Zelda knowledge can make mistakes.
And I feel like even great players are lulled into making them a tiny bit more often if they aren't published for them.

So to me, the only benefit of not going for guaranteed FW punishes is nearly null and void against someone who knows what they're doing.
Meaning that it's always worth going for, when you're positive that it's truly a free punish.
Farore's Wind is a scary move, and if you make your opponent fear it you've already won.