Stages are done a little unprofessionally?

[UberAndrew]

First things first, I'm not criticizing the quality of added stages or edited stages, I'm talking about how they HANDLE custom stages.
The PMBR has proven they're a very capable team able to work wonders on Brawl and put in incredible amounts of effort and detail into everything, but does anyone else feel they do stages... a little unprofessional?

Now I think it's fine that they neutered some stages to be competitive like Green Hill Zone and Norfair, but at least they kept them but then they completely remove some stages like Luigi's Mansion Eldin Bridge?

Their policy for new characters was only if they didn't replace any existing character, but they replace and remove stages willy nilly? To me at least it seems they could handle that a little better.

I know there are codes and engines to add stages (See Classic Stage Expansion mod) so why couldn't PMBR incorporate that so we didn't have to LOSE any stages? So we could have Dracula's Castle AND Luigi's Mansion (Or at least an edited version).

So this topic isn't just me complaining, what do you think or would like them to do differently with stages, if anything?

 

[RPGsFTW]

I agree to an extent. I feel that Luigi's Mansion is a good example of a stage that could be made into something really cool, but what they did to it, make it Dracula's Castle, is horrible. The reason it bothers me, besides it being a completely different themed stage, is that it is big and campy.

I feel that we need LESS of those big, awful, campy stages. It personally frustrates me that most of the potential stages made, whether they be based on parts of the SSE or not, tend to fall into the larger size. I'm a bit biased on this, I understand, but larger stages create a better environment for campier, more defensive play, and I feel that that should be frowned upon and changed. Dreamland and Yoshi's Island Brawl barely manage to be ok, despite being a bit large, though that could more so be their boundaries rather than the stage and its platforms themselves.

But, yeah, having viable themed stages, especially viable Mario stages (since they usually aren't very good) that aren't just the Metal Cavern (which is also only to an extent) would be cool.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I remember them saying something about wanting to have every vbrawl stage in in the final version. So I don`t think that they are just removing and replacing, they are just working on the other stages. Kind of like how Mewtwo and Roy are being added even though Yoshi and Samus arn`t finished

 

[Xermo]

If I recall, they said they'll re-add the brawl stages back eventually, or so I've heard.

 

[Kally Wally]

On stage extension codes; the PMBR know about these codes. However, they're somewhat buggy and unprofessional themselves. I don't know the details, but I think it has something to do with random selection. Once they have these codes working satisfactorily, they'll have all the Brawl stages.

 

[UberAndrew]

I'm a bit biased on this, I understand, but larger stages create a better environment for campier, more defensive play, and I feel that that should be frowned upon and changed.

But what a lot of people forget is that Project M isn't only about competitive play, it is suppose to be fun for both casuals and hardcore vets. Choosing their stage selection to push a specific style of play is very unprofessional and favoring a small group of people. One of the reasons why I love Project M is that you do't have to be a skilled vet to appreciate it.
I believe the limit of stages that can be added is around 30ish, so it's very possible they can have plenty of competitive stages while keeping some like Edin Bridge.

My entire point is that they don't HAVE to compromise with stage selection, they can have their cake and eat it too, so why don't they? They can have a large selection of small to medium competitive stages without sacrificing or removing others.

 

[GP&B]

What they'll probably end up doing is custom-building their own ASM code for the stages to work with random selection. Considering the wizards they have on their team, it should be more than possible to have the full Brawl stage list in addition to the tournament stage list by the final release.

 

[UberAndrew]

On stage extension codes; the PMBR know about these codes. However, they're somewhat buggy and unprofessional themselves. I don't know the details, but I think it has something to do with random selection. Once they have these codes working satisfactorily, they'll have all the Brawl stages.

If they can get a working Clone engine I'm sure they can perfect the stage expansion codes.

If I recall, they said they'll re-add the brawl stages back eventually, or so I've heard.

Okay, I have never heard that, so that's some good news.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

If they can get a working Clone engine I'm sure they can perfect the stage expansion codes.

and who said they weren`t?

 

[RPGsFTW]

But what a lot of people forget is that Project M isn't only about competitive play, .

The thing is, I never stated competitive play in the first place. Realistically, and we all know this, being campy isn't very fun even in normal "all items on, hyrule castle only" play. You can have a fun stage like normal WarioWare with the hazards and all that people do enjoy sometimes, but a stage being outright huge to limit the amount of interaction between players isn't a very good idea for casual OR competitive players.

 

[UberAndrew]

and who said they weren`t?

Well as far I know they haven't said anything officially about the stage expansion codes. They very well could be, but as I have no way of knowing I can only assume things.

 

[Ogopogo]

The only stages I don't think should be the way they are is the subspace jungle one and the norfair one. Other than that it's pretty alright.

 

[UberAndrew]

The thing is, I never stated competitive play in the first place. Realistically, and we all know this, being campy isn't fun in even in normal "all items on, hyrule castle only" play. You can have a fun stage like normal WarioWare with the hazards and all that people do enjoy sometimes, but a stage being outright huge to limit the amount of interaction between players isn't a very good idea for casual OR competitive players.

I see what you mean, but under certain circumstances I have enjoyed those stages with friends. They, in my opinion, should keep Eldin Bridge, Hyrule Temple and Corneria, have a few special stages like Wario Ware and have the rest competitive.

I do see your point entirely, but since they can possibly have near double the stages there's no reason why they couldn't throw a few of the larger stages in the mix to have a large and unique selection.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Oh, damn, I forgot Bridge of Eldin even existed, haha. It has been THAT long since I've even heard of the name. That stage is HUGE, Jesus.

Honestly, I really enjoy the troll stages myself, but I feel they are more fun with hazards. One of my honest to god favorite stages was Mushroom Kingdom 2 in Melee. I loved how stupid small it was and how Birdo was always ******* around. The funniest things, too, were when you launched someone behind Birdo, and she drags them off screen to their death. <3

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I see what you mean, but under certain circumstances I have enjoyed those stages with friends. They, in my opinion, should keep Eldin Bridge, Hyrule Temple and Corneria, have a few special stages like Wario Ware and have the rest competitive.

I do see your point entirely, but since they can possibly have near double the stages there's no reason why they couldn't throw a few of the larger stages in the mix to have a large and unique selection.

why not instead of making half the stage select casual play and the other half competitive play, keep what they are doing now with making every stage they make or add both competitive and fun for casuals. that way casuals don`t feel alienated with only a handful of stages catered to them.

 

[F. Blue]

You know, since recent stagelists have been banning Warioware anyway, why not just revert it to it's casual minigame form? That is if there really isn't a presentable stage expansion code coming in the near future.

 

[PhantasyStar]

I'm still unsure why PMBR isn't taking my requests? I just want to have some friendlies at a Seinfeld stage.

 

[RPGsFTW]

You know, since recent stagelists have been banning Warioware anyway, why not just revert it to it's casual minigame form? That is if there really isn't a presentable stage expansion code coming in the near future.

What recent stage lists are you talking about? Big House 3 happened last week and WarioWare was definitely one of the counterpicks there. It is a great stage with a unique platform layout.

 

[Shadic]

If they can get a working Clone engine I'm sure they can perfect the stage expansion codes.

You are aware of the obscene complications that would go along with a "perfect" set of stage expansion codes, right?

On top of the obvious stage selection screen editing, we'd also need to make sure the stages have their own music slots/entries in My Music, their own soundtracks, their own icons/save data on the Random Stage Select screen etc.

We replace stages because there is no feasible professional way to add them, any alternative is far more hacked-together than what we can do by simply replacing stages, for a fraction of the effort. Generally we try and replace unpopular stages with ones that would be thought of highly by fans. How many people really would prefer it if we kept Mario Bros., New Pork City, and 75M?

Hopefully that sheds a bit of light on why we do what we do.

 

[Chzrm3]

I do miss Mario Bros and 75 M a tiny bit, because they were fun to mess around on, but I would play them maybe once every 6 months or so when my younger cousins would come over, or my friends just wanted to get drunk and play ridiculous levels. The stages that replaced them get way more daily use. =)

New Pork City was an atrocity, though - I wonder if Sakurai did that on purpose? : P That'd be pretty meta. Also, the DK Rumble falls level was unplayable, so the level that replaced it is great because now I can actually enjoy some of the awesome DK music, like Bramble Blast.

All in all I love what they've done with stages. I'm also so happy they decided to keep pirate ship, and I hope that never gets replaced. It's a silly level, but it's also gorgeous and really evokes a feeling that no other stage does. It's definitely my favorite "crazy" level - my bro and I play on that one whenever we're 1 v 1ing and just want to have a ridiculous match.

 

[Paradoxium]

Why is getting rid of random stages and replacing them with more balanced stages unprofessional? Wouldn't it be considered the opposite? And I'm not even sure why this is a problem, you can replace any stage in the game, just go to brawl vaults they have a ton for download

 

[GHNeko]

On top of what shadic has stated, I'd like to add on that while P:M is a game that is both for competitive and casual players, that precedence is given to competition to a certain degree. And that has taken effect when it comes to stages.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

The only thing I consider unprofessional is the handling of stages like Saffron City and other N64 stages.
I'd love to see the textures at least edited so they look "cleaner" (Yes I know there is someone doing this unofficially, but I'd love to have a unified look for all the stages adapted by the team officially.) I dunno, I'm just not one for jagged 64x by 64x textures for a stage map.

 

[BackwardCap]

Hey, I love those jagged 64 textures. Infact, I wish they would replace corneria with the 64 version. That stage was awesome.

 

[PseudoTypical]

The only thing I consider unprofessional is the handling of stages like Saffron City and other N64 stages.
I'd love to see the textures at least edited so they look "cleaner" (Yes I know there is someone doing this unofficially, but I'd love to have a unified look for all the stages adapted by the team officially.) I dunno, I'm just not one for jagged 64x by 64x textures for a stage map.

The funny thing is that there are already hacks, and entire projects, dedicated to making these stages with HD textures, at least one of which is older than Brawl itself. Not that they have to pull from these places to get the textures, because they might prefer to do things their own way, but they're out there. Maybe there's a general preference for the low-quality textures, but I don't see the appeal. Here and here are comparisons between the original and the HD (just hover your mouse over the pictures).

Layouts and simple platform design is one thing, but the clash of different quality levels (Brawl versus 64) is no good IMO, and look at those pictures!

 

[Phaiyte]

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but quite frankly, a lot of stages were TERRIBLE and needed to be gotten rid of. Stages where you can just walk to the blast zone are just plain stupid, and /those/ are what's unprofessional.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

The only thing I consider unprofessional is the handling of stages like Saffron City and other N64 stages.
I'd love to see the textures at least edited so they look "cleaner" (Yes I know there is someone doing this unofficially, but I'd love to have a unified look for all the stages adapted by the team officially.) I dunno, I'm just not one for jagged 64x by 64x textures for a stage map.

So by that logic, the Past Stages in Melee were unprofessional and unappealing as well?

And seriously, what is "professional" to you people when it comes to this game? What literally defines something as professional or unprofessional?

People tend to throw this word around a lot, but it really just amounts to them saying "It's not how I would have/want it to look and therefore is bad". Can we have a little bit more insight to this? Is it just that lame 'I want it to look like the official developers made it" excuse? In that case, the 64 stages looked like this in Melee too, so wish granted.

Seriously, I don't feel like people are putting enough thought into the words they use sometimes, let alone their meanings.

 

[Kati]

Or... you could always add or restore any stage you want into the game. Project: M doesn't take any stage away from you. Locked characters are permanently inaccessible, for a good reason, but it takes less than a minute to add and remove stages.

 

[Chzrm3]

Hey, I love those jagged 64 textures. Infact, I wish they would replace corneria with the 64 version. That stage was awesome.

Yeah! That stage was amazing.

I also really miss Samus's N64 stage. The acid/lava mechanic has been used in several other levels, but for whatever reason, none of them are nearly as fun as that original one.

 

[PseudoTypical]

So by that logic, the Past Stages in Melee were unprofessional and unappealing as well?

And seriously, what is "professional" to you people when it comes to this game? What literally defines something as professional or unprofessional?

People tend to throw this word around a lot, but it really just amounts to them saying "It's not how I would have/want it to look and therefore is bad". Can we have a little bit more insight to this? Is it just that lame 'I want it to look like the official developers made it" excuse? In that case, the 64 stages looked like this in Melee too, so wish granted.

Seriously, I don't feel like people are putting enough thought into the words they use sometimes, let alone their meanings.

I would have preferred higher quality textures, sure.

I think something ought to be defined as professional in this context if it provides a seamless and natural play experience, so that the player finds all of the components of the game to "work" together, if that makes sense. Anything outside of that definition is, of course, unprofessional if we accept the definition.

I think that's an is/ought problem. We're using a mod that changes things from what the developers did, so obviously that isn't our goal. lol We want something that follows the definition above, I think, which is what the "ideal" developer would make.

I hope I clarified what he meant, or at least my understanding of it. I agree with it if this is what he means by it.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I would have preferred higher quality textures, sure.

I think something ought to be defined as professional in this context if it provides a seamless and natural play experience, so that the player finds all of the components of the game to "work" together, if that makes sense. Anything outside of that definition is, of course, unprofessional if we accept the definition.

I think that's an is/ought problem. We're using a mod that changes things from what the developers did, so obviously that isn't our goal. lol We want something that follows the definition above, I think, which is what the "ideal" developer would make.

I hope I clarified what he meant, or at least my understanding of it. I agree with it if this is what he means by it.

Who is "we"? Quite frankly, I can't find myself agreeing with you at all. -.o'

 

[PseudoTypical]

Who is "we"? Quite frankly, I can't find myself agreeing with you at all. -.o'

The first "we" was referring to P:M players; the second was Ninka_kiwi and I. I should've been clearer about that.

I just find it jarring that we have such fantastic models and other work in Brawl, and more added in P:M, and then we have stages that are pretty low quality, even if it's intentional.

 

[Chzrm3]

And seriously, what is "professional" to you people when it comes to this game? What literally defines something as professional or unprofessional?
.....Who is "we"? Quite frankly, I can't find myself agreeing with you at all.

You asked how 'you people' defined professional, and he gave it to you pretty concisely. To then respond by stating "who's 'we'? I don't feel that way!" is just being argumentative. You asked for him to clarify what he meant. : P

For the record, his definition of professional is one I agree with - I just think that PM nailed it in their design of the game. It's always felt really well done, polished, and "professional" to me.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

The first "we" was referring to P:M players; the second was Nika_kiwi and I. I should've been clearer about that.

I just find it jarring that we have such fantastic models and other work in Brawl, and more added in P:M, and then we have stages that are pretty low quality, even if it's intentional.

Let me rephrase that.

Saying "we" implies that absolutely every P:M player agrees with your exact definition of what's "professional" and what isn't, or whether or not something is even if they agree with the definition, like the person above me who I'm conveniently ignoring and not responding to.

I'm saying that as another P:M player, I don't fully agree nor do I find it that important either. I don't see why people feel the need to nitpick about things of such miniscule importance when all that really matters is how well the game plays and how well the gameplay works on the stages, which thanks to the changes made, is rather solid.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Let me rephrase that.

Saying "we" implies that absolutely every P:M player agrees with your exact definition of what's "professional" and what isn't, or whether or not something is even if they agree with the definition, like the person above me who I'm conveniently ignoring and not responding to.

I'm saying that as another P:M player, I don't fully agree nor do I find it that important either. I don't see why people feel the need to nitpick about things of such miniscule importance when all that really matters is how well the game plays and how well the gameplay works on the stages, which thanks to the changes made, is rather solid.

I think something ought to be defined as professional in this context if it provides a seamless and natural play experience, so that the player finds all of the components of the game to "work" together, if that makes sense. Anything outside of that definition is, of course, unprofessional if we accept the definition.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone agreed with my definition. I simply meant that if we accepted it, there were certainly arguments in favor of improved textures. In addition, if the things that you (and any others that share your opinion) care about can generally be boiled down to strict gameplay, and the resources are available as shown in my earlier posts, how does P:M not win by appeasing more of its members by putting in the HD textures?

 

[Comeback Kid]

If you mean actual improved textures that retain the same art style of the original, then yes.

If you mean that flat and uninspired newgrounds flash background style you were posting earlier Dmickolas, then no. I rather have the originals without texture touch ups compared to that butt ugly art you linked to.

 

[PseudoTypical]

If you mean actual improved textures that retain the same art style of the original, then yes.

If you mean that ugly flash background "HD" style you were posting earlier Dmickolas, then no. I rather have the originals without texture touch ups compared to that butt ugly art you linked to.

lol I was not expecting a response like this, I admit. I respect your right to think of them what you will, of course, but which ones are so different to you? Maybe they seem more cartoony/"Flash" than the original, but I think that may just be the result of the upscaling with objects that are still blocky and two-dimensional. Personally I like the look; it seems charming to me. If you want to cite specific differences, I'd like to go over what things you disapprove of.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

Alright I guess I wasn't too clear.

Melee stages are fine for the fact that they don't really have many jagged, unclean textures to them, where as the N64 stages it's blatantly obvious and not very nice to look at.

While I have great nostalgia for classic stages, I have to agree with the sentiment that they weren't included in brawl for a reason, and that was due to them not looking nearly as clean as Brawl's and Melee's stages.

While I don't think it necessary that the stages get updated, I think they could benefit with some texture tweeks to make the stages fit better with the art style of brawl, nothing major, just updates to make it look a bit more clear.

As far as the nitpicking part Wave, the PMBR are basically perfectionists, while I doubt editing textures on a stage are priority, it'd add to the overall presentation of the project.

Nika_kiwi

Also, Why is it that when ever anyone seems to refer to me on Smash boards, they seem to misspell my name? Is it really that hard?

 

[PseudoTypical]

While I don't think it necessary that the stages get updated, I think they could benefit with some texture tweeks to make the stages fit better with the art style of brawl, nothing major, just updates to make it look a bit more clear.

Also, Why is it that when ever anyone seems to refer to me on Smash boards, they seem to misspell my name? Is it really that hard?

Yeah, this is what I meant. I can see how the texture pack I showed off could be a little bit further than what some would like, but it was only an example. I do like it though.

lol I'm sorry, man. I'll go fix it now.

 

[himemiya]

Nah they just forgot shadow mooses they need to get rid of that for a better one then they're good.