Stage you should ban?

[jet56]

Ok, so I feel that a lot of players are confused as to which stage you should ban as little Mac standard or otherwise. Here is the standard stages (remember that each region may have different legal stages so post a stage you would ban if it's legal in your region but not listed)

Final destination
Battlefield
Dreamland
Town and city
smashville

Counter pick:

Lylat
Duck hunt

for standard stages, I typically would ban battlefield, but recently in monthlies and watching other matches, I feel smashville needs the ban. Any character with a projectile can camp the platform, and if the player takes the percent lead with any character, the same can be said with any character. I feel this stage should be banned even with counter pick stages involved.
Let me know what you guys think, and feel free to mention stages like halberd, delfino, etc.

 

[Gavi1195]

I feel that your thoughts on Smashville are justified. (I have seen many of those matches, even though I'm a 3DS player) The only one I think that a Mac player would consider banning would be Duck Hunt. The tree is a pain in the ass and while I do think that, for most of the part, the stage is fair. The moment your opponent gets a good lead (Percentage/stock) and starts camping that tree. A good amount of frustration is coming toward Mac. (This is just my experience and I'm not the go to guy for Tournament stuff. So chances are someone who is more experienced will explain better than me why certain stages are good and others not.)

 

[Laitome]

Hmm. The way my locals do it is 1-2-1 starter striking. I always let my opponent go first then I strike in this priority: Smashville, Dreamland, Battlefield. FD is FD and t&c has super short ceilings and is FD half the time. Smashville is the worst stage imaginable for mac with the exception of a few matchups. If I win I always ban smashville and dreamland, the counterpicks aren't very bad stages for little mac and smashville and dreamland should always be banned. So in short make sure you don't play on dreamland and smashville.

 

[Cagt]

Well, the two stages I ban no matter what are Dreamland and Lylat. Both stages can mess up Little Mac's recovery, and Dreamland in particular has that Battlefield-esque layout that I'm not fond of (i.e. camping on top platform).

If I lose the RPS, I'll ban either Battlefield or Smashville depending on the matchup (Smashville if my opponent's character is projectile heavy, Battlefield if it's an aerial/combo heavy character).

As for G2/3, I usually ban whatever I couldn't ban earlier, since Duck Hunt isn't a bad stage for Little Mac (small blastzones), and while camping on the tree is annoying, they can't abuse it as much as Smashville's moving platform.

If the tourney includes Delfino, Halberd, or Castle Siege, I would definitely ban one of those depending on who I'm playing against.

 

[Alphicans]

^sorry man but if you're banning lylat you're doing something wrong as LM. That stage is godlike for LM. Prioritize getting rid of Dreamland and SV. Honestly, even on a non-LMbias level, try convincing your region to have lylat as a neutral over Dreamland. DL is overly similar to BF, so it's honestly just stupid to have. My region's list is:

FD
SV
BF
LC
TC

I ban SV, they ban FD and TC/LC (depending on who they play), and I choose from there. With DL legal, you're almost for sure going to start on BF, which sucks. BF is fine vs most people, but against people that want to circle camp platforms with a lead, it's really tough. Bottom line? Don't be afraid of lylat, and embrace it. LMs recovery sucks as is, so chances are your opponent has more reason to fear the stage messing with their recovery than you do.

 

[Cagt]

I never liked Lylat personally. The way the stage tilts around messes up my tilts/smash attacks, and I've repeatedly died because of Lylat's (unpredictable?) tilts. It's a stage I never liked or did well on, and even if I don't ban it, my opponent will either ban it for me or not pick it entirely. I still ban Dreamland and SV though, those I agree should be banned as LM.

Also, no offense, but telling me I'm doing something wrong as LM over banning a stage doesn't really say anything about how I play the character...

 

[inconspikuous]

i've had trouble on BF a couple times with the top plat camping when they get the percent lead, but overall, i haven't found it to be too much of an issue. SV is the worst stage for mac, imo, and i would also ban DL64 if it's an option. i usually ban delfino if i don't think they'll pick SV, DL64, or LC (which i ban against pikachu). i think LC is an okay stage otherwise. halberd is a double-edged sword, but i think it's a good stage for mac with the low ceilings and the ability to shark the plats with upsmash. watch out for DKs, Robs, and Rosas trying to jank you on halberd though. i like counterpicking to CS if it's available, but i talk about that every time a stage discussion comes up.

 

[CaliforniaSoul]

I always ban duck hunt and dreamland. Duck hunt because I get camped hard on the tree and there's not much I can do and DL because I just don't like the wind.

 

[inconspikuous]

oh and a couple notes about DH. first, let's get it out of the way, yes the tree camping sucks. upB sharking into the bottom branch can work, but that's a lot of commitment. riding the dog (kill a duck, wait) can help you reach the tree. also, when hanging from the left ledge, you can jump from ledge to get added height to reach the tree with your second jump or upB. still lots of commitment. tl;dr: being camped on the tree sucks. how to beat it: get the percent lead and don't give it up.

however, if you're on the tree and can catch an upB oos, you can get an early stock. also, there are wall jumps available on DH, which makes mac's recovery better than most of the tourney legal stages. upsmash can shark the bush on the right (iirc). 'hiding' in the grass patches can sometimes effectively conceal the options you're choosing -- dtilt and/or uptilt are good for using behind the grass because of their low commitment and high reward on hit.

tl;dr: DH isn't the best stage for mac, but it has redeeming factors that make other stages more important to strike. (dependent on your opponent, of course, so if you know they're going to camp you out and you don't think you can get the percent lead, use your discretion)

 

[jet56]

thanks for all your replies guys this really helps. i think ill kinda lay out a stage advantage and disadvantage for mac on each stage:

FD/Omega Stages: flat, with no platforms, ideal for mac. there is no platforms to help you recover, or save you from juggles though.
BF: A standard stage for mac. in my opinion a neutral stage, as camping on the top platform is easier to deal with than other stages. you can usmash through the lower platforms on this stage. can also kill earlier if you are on platforms.
DL64: Similar to battlefield, except for the fact the tree may hinder combos and recover, this goes for both players. otherwise, same things as battlefield.
SV: One of macs worst stages, as you must use a double jump, or a ledge jump to get to the platform, and you can't pressure it on the ground. very bad against campers and projectile users. however, the platform can help in recovery on occasion.
TC: A solid second stage choice for mac against most characters, since it is a FD stage half the time, with a smaller blast ceiling for earlier kills, and platforms can save you. however, platforms can also kill you, and other characters with powerful kill moves off the top can do the same to you.
Lylat: A bit of a wonky stage, that can do wonders or hinder mac greatly, you can usmash the platforms, and get easy pressure. also, it can make it easier or more difficult to recover depending on how lylat works, but the smaller blast zone off the side gives you an advantage in the fact that you can get back to the stage easier, and can kill easier off the side.
Duck Hunt: as mentioned above, this stage has the tree, which is the biggest problem, but otherwise, it can be treated as an omega stage, if you have a percent lead, they have to approach you, and the small blast zones off the side will aid you in recovery and in killing.
Halberd: a scary stage for both mac and the other player. its small blast ceiling can net you early kills, but stage hazards and stage transitions can also take a stock from you if you are not wary. also, recovery from below can be difficult.
CS: a stage not used often in tourney, that can be very useful as a counterpick for mac. the first stage is a small stage, where mac can keep close and pressure his opponent. the transitions are walk offs, as well as the second stage, and the 3rd stage is a pseudo FD.

in my opinion, the stages from best to worst for mac in general are in this order:
FD/Omega
TC
CS
Lylat
Halberd
BF
Duck hunt
DL64
SV

if we are talking just neutral stages then:
FD/Omega
TC
BF
DL64
SV

again, i really appreciate all of the inputs, and if you disagree on anything i said, please post it. i love discussion, so we as a mac nation can learn our stage choices as well as we can. I should also mention that this is a general idea, and character matchup can change this list dramatically.

 

[Laitome]

thanks for all your replies guys this really helps. i think ill kinda lay out a stage advantage and disadvantage for mac on each stage:

FD/Omega Stages: flat, with no platforms, ideal for mac. there is no platforms to help you recover, or save you from juggles though.
BF: A standard stage for mac. in my opinion a neutral stage, as camping on the top platform is easier to deal with than other stages. you can usmash through the lower platforms on this stage. can also kill earlier if you are on platforms.
DL64: Similar to battlefield, except for the fact the tree may hinder combos and recover, this goes for both players. otherwise, same things as battlefield.
SV: One of macs worst stages, as you must use a double jump, or a ledge jump to get to the platform, and you can't pressure it on the ground. very bad against campers and projectile users. however, the platform can help in recovery on occasion.
TC: A solid second stage choice for mac against most characters, since it is a FD stage half the time, with a smaller blast ceiling for earlier kills, and platforms can save you. however, platforms can also kill you, and other characters with powerful kill moves off the top can do the same to you.
Lylat: A bit of a wonky stage, that can do wonders or hinder mac greatly, you can usmash the platforms, and get easy pressure. also, it can make it easier or more difficult to recover depending on how lylat works, but the smaller blast zone off the side gives you an advantage in the fact that you can get back to the stage easier, and can kill easier off the side.
Duck Hunt: as mentioned above, this stage has the tree, which is the biggest problem, but otherwise, it can be treated as an omega stage, if you have a percent lead, they have to approach you, and the small blast zones off the side will aid you in recovery and in killing.
Halberd: a scary stage for both mac and the other player. its small blast ceiling can net you early kills, but stage hazards and stage transitions can also take a stock from you if you are not wary. also, recovery from below can be difficult.
CS: a stage not used often in tourney, that can be very useful as a counterpick for mac. the first stage is a small stage, where mac can keep close and pressure his opponent. the transitions are walk offs, as well as the second stage, and the 3rd stage is a pseudo FD.

in my opinion, the stages from best to worst for mac in general are in this order:
FD/Omega
TC
CS
Lylat
Halberd
BF
Duck hunt
DL64
SV

if we are talking just neutral stages then:
FD/Omega
TC
BF
DL64
SV

again, i really appreciate all of the inputs, and if you disagree on anything i said, please post it. i love discussion, so we as a mac nation can learn our stage choices as well as we can. I should also mention that this is a general idea, and character matchup can change this list dramatically.

Hmm I agree with this list with the exception that Halberd is a better stage for LM than Lylat, can't say much for CS as it isn't legal where I'm from, but if I had to pick Lylat or Halberd, Halberd would be my first pick. My reasoning being that with Lylat LM's U-smash either just barely or can't reach the middle platform without the stage tilts while with Halberd there is a long period of time (when you are on the ship) where nowhere on the stage is your opponent safe from U-smash pressure.

 

[ZartZu]

Hey, this is the map pool in Finland and the ban order is 1 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 2 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 2 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 1 (P1)
example: first player bans 1, then secondary bans 2, then first player 2 etc...
Stages that I want to play: Green
Stages that I want to ban: Red

*Final Destination (*Omega Stages)
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Pokémon Stadium 2
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Dream Land 64
Skyloft
Wuhu Island

My personal favorite stage for Little Mac: Delfino Plaza (Reason being: small blast zones, water game is amazing with Little Mac if you both are in the water [side-b all day] and in only one scene you can drop, which is Shine Gate and ofc the middle part of the map (Rooftop) but you never end up down there, you always lose stock there because you get pushed back to the blast zone.)

My personal worst stages for Little Mac: Pokemon Stadium 2, Halberd and Skyloft

What you guys think about my bans?
What stages do you guys think I should learn?

 

[Laitome]

Hey, this is the map pool in Finland and the ban order is 1 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 2 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 2 (P1) -> 2 (P2) -> 1 (P1)
example: first player bans 1, then secondary bans 2, then first player 2 etc...
Stages that I want to play: Green
Stages that I want to ban: Red

*Final Destination (*Omega Stages)
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Pokémon Stadium 2
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Dream Land 64
Skyloft
Wuhu Island

My personal favorite stage for Little Mac: Delfino Plaza (Reason being: small blast zones, water game is amazing with Little Mac if you both are in the water [side-b all day] and in only one scene you can drop, which is Shine Gate and ofc the middle part of the map (Rooftop) but you never end up down there, you always lose stock there because you get pushed back to the blast zone.)

My personal worst stages for Little Mac: Pokemon Stadium 2, Halberd and Skyloft

What you guys think about my bans?
What stages do you guys think I should learn?

Wow that is a big map pool. I think your bans are okay, but not optimal.

First off is that FD is Mac's best stage by far. In Delfino the water could spell death as you have no options to defend yourself with while you are in it. This is along with the fact that it is very easy to camp LM on Delfino and only the plaza and island transformations are good for mac the rest can be camped out.

One thing I don't get is that you have battlefield listed as ban but Dream Land listed as good, why? Dream Land has higher platforms making it impossible to hit someone on the lower ones with a U-smash unless you are pixel perfect. Sure the blast-zones are smaller but that doesn't matter when even more of the stage is safe from Mac.

Also Lylat and Halberd are good stages for LM with Halberd being his third best stage. As I have always said if there is are period of time where there isn't a single spot on stage that is safe from U-smashes then it is a good stage. The low ceilings are just a plus.

Overall not a bad list but I would replace Dream Land with Halberd and Delfino with Lylat, but I am curious why do you think Halberd is bad for LM and what makes Dreamland a better stage for LM than Battlefield in your opinion?

 

[ZartZu]

Wow that is a big map pool. I think your bans are okay, but not optimal.

First off is that FD is Mac's best stage by far. In Delfino the water could spell death as you have no options to defend yourself with while you are in it. This is along with the fact that it is very easy to camp LM on Delfino and only the plaza and island transformations are good for mac the rest can be camped out.

One thing I don't get is that you have battlefield listed as ban but Dream Land listed as good, why? Dream Land has higher platforms making it impossible to hit someone on the lower ones with a U-smash unless you are pixel perfect. Sure the blast-zones are smaller but that doesn't matter when even more of the stage is safe from Mac.

Also Lylat and Halberd are good stages for LM with Halberd being his third best stage. As I have always said if there is are period of time where there isn't a single spot on stage that is safe from U-smashes then it is a good stage. The low ceilings are gust a plus.

Overall not a bad list but I would replace Dream Land with Halberd and Delfino with Lylat, but I am curious why do you think Halberd is bad for LM and what makes Dreamland a better stage for LM than Battlefield in your opinion?

I really loved your reply, I thank you a lot for that :3 Many people start reply with something like this "your opinion SUCKS, I don't understand how ******** you are and why are you doing things like that, etc.." but not you <3 once again ty ^^

Anyway...

Let me start by saying some reasons why I hate Halberd and Battlefield.
Many players in my country play character that has spike (Dair mostly) like zss, captain falcon, sheik etc... With that ability they can spike me when I try to recovery from under the Battlefield. They can just hit the floor with Dair and get a free kill from me. That is one of the main reasons why I hate that stage, ofc there are other ways to recover but I end up in many situations where I have to go under because it's too risky to go from above. Good points for Battlefield if I need to Usmash under platform, but here comes more answers why I prefer Dream Land 64 over Battlefield.

Many people in Finland don't own Dream Land 64 and I have practiced in it a long time. I have been saved by the tree many times when it blows players away from the center. Blast zone is one thing yes but mainly I really hate the spike in Battlefield.

Halberd on the other hand is very annoying with the ramps, just like Lylat. Those little ramps many times fu** my side-b and combos. Mostly I don't need to ban them because my opponent doesn't want to go there either. Also Lylat's ledges move and is sometime bad for me... Also Halberd is bugged map sometimes on the second phase.

But why I want to go play in Delfino Plaza and Wuhu Island?

Many players ban omegas and stages that has small amount of details (platforms, straight floors) from me as possible. So I wanted to learn the hard stages for me as they would be my favorites. They think that Little Mac sucks in those stages but if you know your stage pretty well, you will surprise them easily.

But you are right, I should learn to play in other stages like Battlefield, Lylat and Halberd.
But from my experience in Finland, this ban system works best for me atm.
------------------------------------------l
30mins after I saw your reply V

I'm learning how to play Halberd and Lylat atm, I think those maps are really good for mac when I can easily kill them with D-tilt -> up-b ^^ Thanks for reply, Like REALLY

Leave more questions if you like, I will answer as soon as possible ^^

 

[jet56]

Now that we know what the evo stage list is, this topic i feel is worth bringing up again. in particular:

Starter (For EVO):
Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield
Town & City
Lylat

Counterpicks:
Dreamland
Duck Hunt

the notable change? Lylat is a starter stage now. in my opinion, this helps mac out, as Dreamland was a worse battlefield for mac, and lylat has more benefits for him than flaws. not to mention, people will not want to go on that stage to start, which gives you a much higher chance on starting on Town and City or Battlefield (they will always ban FD, and you should always ban smashville, which leaves Lylat, Battlefield, and Town & City.) however, against certain characters, i feel lylat would be a better stage over Battlefield, as circle camping is much harder on that stage than on Battlefield. What are your guy's thoughts?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Now that we know what the evo stage list is, this topic i feel is worth bringing up again. in particular:

Starter (For EVO):
Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield
Town & City
Lylat

Counterpicks:
Dreamland
Duck Hunt

the notable change? Lylat is a starter stage now. in my opinion, this helps mac out, as Dreamland was a worse battlefield for mac, and lylat has more benefits for him than flaws. not to mention, people will not want to go on that stage to start, which gives you a much higher chance on starting on Town and City or Battlefield (they will always ban FD, and you should always ban smashville, which leaves Lylat, Battlefield, and Town & City.) however, against certain characters, i feel lylat would be a better stage over Battlefield, as circle camping is much harder on that stage than on Battlefield. What are your guy's thoughts?

Personally I'm more towards banning Battlefield against a Mac. More problems there fighting them than anything else, even with my best non-Mac character. So, they might get a free FD pick and I hate Smashville even when playing as non-Mac, so usually I just let my opponent pick the stage.

I think that's the main reason why I lose a lot when doing friendlies on 3ds or Wii U: I don't specialize in any stage and hate most of them (Barring Battlefield. I ****ing love that stage.), so usually I have no clue what to ban.

But this sounds nice that Lylat can be a starter, I'll need to practice at a friend's house on Thursday/Friday.

 

[Zethoro]

Always
Ban
Duck Hunt