SSBU... Sakurai still let us PM players down

[Deleted member]

Lmao. I have to make this post just once more cause of how funny this is.

I never said anything about Sakurai doing exactly what I wanted. Here's the same kind of arguments you were making earlier. And saying I don't wanna have a discussion is the pot calling the kettle black my friend. You literally complained about others complaining. You attacked others, and put words in peoples' mouths again here in this quote, and you're assuming arguments all over. Do you not see the sheer irony of your statement, dude? And last I checked I don't hate Ultimate lol. I hated the AI specifically (should've specified that earlier a bit more). I still play it on a buddy's system when he asks me to. The game is alright. Again, you're completely assuming my arguments and beliefs for me, man. That's not how you make an argument lol.

Context.

Context is important. I thought these were the Ultimate boards, not the PM ones. There's a distinct difference of intent between someone making a thread like this on the Ultimate boards (to rile up attention from people enjoying the game), and someone making it on the PM boards, where really, only people who play PM are gonna see it.

Again, feel free to do whatever you like. The only thing I had issue with was someone seeming like they wanted to circlejerk contrarian opinions amid people's enjoyment. Over here it's like 'whatever, do whatever you like.'

You're in your private little hang out, far be it from me to dictate what you should talk about, or how you should say it. Hell, far be it from me regardless really. But if someone was coming into the Ultimate boards, whining complaining that "Sakurai let them down" cause the game isn't like Melee/PM, that's just asking for trouble, and yeah, I'd call that out, using whatever tone I please really.


Regardless, I don't really see the point of carrying on this discussion. I made a mistake, I apologise. I disagree with your opinions, but I don't really feel like combatting them if I'm honest. It just seems rather pointless to keep on with the back and forth.

oof

Anyway, this has me wondering where players are going to go from here.
Being realistic, people aren't going to be satisfied with Melee and the later games' mods that exist right now forever.
At some point, there'll have to be a new game to scratch the itch, but who knows what that'll be like.

This is an interesting question, and I wanna address this and the points you made below it.

As far as Melee goes, like you posited, it'll eventually die down enough to go back to being niche. How long that'll take? Who knows really, but it's an inevitability, just like you suggested. I mean, look at other competitive games which once had big scenes, Starcraft, Red Alert 2, hell the whole RTS genre.

Now, that doesn't mean Melee will 'die' persay. No, I think it'll always retain it's hardcore audience of loyal fans. I mean, people still play Third Strike and Accent Core plus and DarkStalkers to this day, and those games, some of them at least, are older than even proMelee. As for Project M, that's a different story. I do think the mod is on its last legs now, and without proper community support or growth, it'll inevitably die out completely.

Now, I don't agree with the notion that "traditional 2D Fighting Games are relics of the past" especially since, as you yourself said it, they're still flourishing currently, and the genre still evolving, and there is zero evidence at all to suggest that the public consciousness as a whole sees them that way. Intimidating and really difficult to get into? Sure. But not obtuse relics of the past waiting to be replaced by platform fighters. I believe there's room for growtg, and genre experimentation among fighting games, but in now way should that style of play ever be replaced by Smash-likes.

Which brings me to another point I wanna cover, not one you explicitly said, but one that seemed implied by your post, and it's an idea I see rather frequently among Smash communities. And that's: the erroneous idea that Melee is the gold standard for all platform fighters.

I spoke about this plenty when Icons was being development, and why the idea that " if someone just made a game like Melee, but with their own IP..." is fundamentally flawed.

Three things:

1. Melee already exists

2. Competitive platform fighters are very niche, they're SMALLER, than the already niche FGC

3. A huge draw factor for Smash Bros IS the characters, and any platform fighter entering the mix will inevitably be competing with that


Thus, with those three points in mind, the only logical conclusion we can draw, is that in order to survive, not only must a game have a VERY high degree of creativity and polish, but this creativity must ALSO exist mechanically, and this game must do whatever it can to craft it's OWN identity as something unique and original. Do what Smash CANNOT do, and this goes well beyond saying "we'll we're gonba balance and support the game in ways Sakurai refused to." A general sentiment I see amid the Smash community from time to time is the one that "Sakurai doesn't know what he's doing" or that "Sakurai neglected us." Both of which are wrong, and which eventually lead to "I could do a better job than Sakurai." Which is horribly misguided. Look at Icons. Sakurai knows perfectly well what he's doing, however, he understands things that the competitive Smash community willfully ignores. He sees the bigger picture, and designs with that in mind.

Thus, for a new platform fighter succeed, it needs to be inspired by Smash, sure, but more importantly DIFFERENT. Let go of the notion that Melee is the gold standard for the subgenre, and expand your mind to really think outside the box for what actually defines a platform fighter, and stop viewing traditional fighting games as old relics, as the genre has continuously evolved over the decades, and for designers, offer a lot of brw ideas, solitions, and options to further experiment with.

Platform Fighters, are basic a subgenre of Fighting games as a whole, a genre that encompasses a lot more than just "Street Fighter" including many untapped genres as well like Arena fighters and so forth.

So, while I do agree that people will inevitably start to work on other Smash-likes, well, the actually have, several attempts have been made, some more successful than others:

Icons
Rivals of Aether
Earth Romancer
Melee Masters
Brawlout
Brawlhalla
Slap City
Air Dash Online
etc... etc...

I think, that success lies in what I said above. Not in simply copying your favorite game, and hoping to cater to an already niche audience, but in being inspired but crafting something truly original that can draw a new audience.

 

[Nohbl]

persay

per se

Now, I don't agree with the notion that "traditional 2D Fighting Games are relics of the past" especially since, as you yourself said it, they're still flourishing currently

Precisely what I said was that interest in Fighting games as a concept is at a high point now. What I meant was that people are dissatisfied with traditional 2D fighting games, and that those are actually in danger of losing fans, if they aren't losing them already.

and the genre still evolving

In what way? I cannot think of many games about which this could be said. I would consider Under Night In-Birth's momentum gauge to be a good example, if developers don't treat it as if it's just a gimmick.

and there is zero evidence at all to suggest that the public consciousness as a whole sees them that way.

Perhaps. It is not an easy thing to admit, even if it turns out many have the gut feeling that it is true, or that the subgenre is stagnating and becoming outdated. Not obsolete yet, however.

Intimidating and really difficult to get into? Sure. But not obtuse relics of the past waiting to be replaced by platform fighters.

I didn't complain about obtuseness. The simplicity of inputs in SSB is something someone else could point to as a superior evolution of fighting games that trad2D should adopt, but I'm not necessarily one of those people. But it isn't difficult to come up with a list of things platform fighters do that make the games "better" than trad2D either because of being more fun, more fair, or adding a layer of depth that makes them more challenging and rewarding to play.

I believe there's room for growtg, and genre experimentation among fighting games, but in now way should that style of play ever be replaced by Smash-likes.

You pique my curiosity toward understanding your adamance. I don't know why you seem to think traditional 2D fighting games couldn't or shouldn't take influence from platform fighting games. Maybe you haven't considered them comparable, and so have not been able to judge the merits of one style vs another---if you did, you would see plenty of places where trad2D comes up short.

Which brings me to another point I wanna cover, not one you explicitly said, but one that seemed implied by your post, and it's an idea I see rather frequently among Smash communities. And that's: the erroneous idea that Melee is the gold standard for all platform fighters.

I address this below, where you repeat this.

the idea that " if someone just made a game like Melee, but with their own IP..." is fundamentally flawed.
Three things:

1. Melee already exists

And? You seem to think that Melee cannot be improved upon nor expanded (whilst still retaining its core identity) more than its own fans do!

2. Competitive platform fighters are very niche, they're SMALLER, than the already niche FGC

Yet still draws impressive enough numbers at EVO despite being held up by practically only two games. It surpasses the entries of games like GG, even.
But forget that, and focus on why they are niche: because the poster child of the genre---SSB---also happens to be one of the only worthwhile products in the genre currently existing. If indeed "someone just made a game like Melee, but with their own IP", why could it not succeed on its own merit by having as much charm in its presentation and experience, and depth in its gameplay as SSB, and thereby eventually become popular to expand the audience for platform fighters?
This second point is just not a very good one.

3. A huge draw factor for Smash Bros IS the characters, and any platform fighter entering the mix will inevitably be competing with that

I believe this is true.

Thus, with those three points in mind, the only logical conclusion we can draw, is that in order to survive, not only must a game have a VERY high degree of creativity and polish, but this creativity must ALSO exist mechanically, and this game must do whatever it can to craft it's OWN identity as something unique and original. Do what Smash CANNOT do

This is very correct, and I've posted as much a long time ago when Icons was more revealed and Brawlout added Hyperlight Drifter, when we were discussing here on the website the (lack of) potential for these games' success.

Look at Icons.

Icons was made by incompetents who lacked creativity among other things.

A general sentiment I see amid the Smash community from time to time is the one that "Sakurai doesn't know what he's doing" or that "Sakurai neglected us." Both of which are wrong

In a sense, yes it is wrong. Sakurai intentionally made the newer games as he did, for the purpose he has stated before of keeping the potential for skill gaps between players as low as possible, and the gaps themselves as small as possible.
In a sense, it is also wrong that he neglected a certain segment of the fanbase. Aerial lag was reduced (generally, to a certain extent), and a new mechanic of dash cancelling was added.
But in another sense, Sakurai does not know what he is doing. He doesn't know how to push the boundaries of gameplay without making a broken mess. At least, he does not seem to believe he could make a game with Brawl Minus, tr4sh [the mod], or CH4OS levels of power and freedom that was still easy enough for newcomers to compete in and make sense of---hence gimped characters like Fox and especially Falco, and Jigglypuff, compared to Melee.
Indeed in another sense, Sakurai has neglected some of the fanbase---at least, they feel neglected. Fans of characters who remain weaker than they should be, with movesets that they shouldn't have; fans who see Sakurai would rather implement the inability to move past shields than give characters more new out of shield options---removing player choice rather than expanding it.

which eventually lead to "I could do a better job than Sakurai." Which is horribly misguided.

I'd imagine for most people, it amounts to "I'd change this and that, remove that, add that, and it'd be perfect." Not everyone has a grand vision of what SSB could or should be without framing it almost entirely in the context of one which already exists. It really is just a small batch of ideas that grows into an enormous pile of fans' collective speculation and expectations.
The issue people have with Sakurai is that these small ideas they have, they feel are superior to what he has done---and they see others sharing as much the same sentiment. Furthermore, they believe these changes are obvious, and felt they took little to no effort to come up with, so cannot see how they'd be difficult to implement.
Therefore seeing him fail to implement these changes the fans have collectively decided are superior leads people to bitterly conclude that Sakurai is either lazy, stupid, or spiteful.
Yet even if this conclusion compelled one to try their hand at making their own game, why would it be misguided for them to say, "I could do a better job than Sakurai"? Simply because, again, they lacked a grand vision---only a smattering of ideas for tweaks. As far as they were concerned, they thought "I could do a better job than Sakurai at this particular thing". Still, I am sure, they almost certainly are right.

He sees the bigger picture

He sees *a* bigger picture. A bigger picture that detractors are not incapable of beholding, but merely do not share. On the same token, Sakurai does not share the fanbases he shuns' bigger pictures, though he may comprehend them to one extent or another.
It may be inaccurate to claim that he does not understand, but not at this point to claim that he does not care. He has listened and replied as he deemed fit.

Thus, for a new platform fighter succeed, it needs to be inspired by Smash, sure, but more importantly DIFFERENT.

I'll agree, although we could argue for a long time about what "different" should mean.

Let go of the notion that Melee is the gold standard for the subgenre

I personally do not do this. I in fact believe the Brawl mods are superior in almost every way.
The reason why we don't appeal to them is because their mod status carries with it a stigma of illegitimacy, beside the fact that most people do not explore them to any depth enough to understand what is being communicated when the mods are mentioned in passing (i.e., not heavily explained, just referred to); in other words, they do not know really what "Project Melee" and "Brawl Minus" means. Indeed, people barely know what "Melee" means. But unfortunately, that is one of the closest frames of reference to the actual gold standards---which it must be said, STILL are not perfection themselves. For me, tr4sh's customs are part of the second half of what should define an ultimate Smash game and platform fighter. But it is complicated to draw out the nuances of all these farflung parts in most discussions, while it is much easier to use Melee as a shorthand and foundation for thinking about what a good and new Smash game would look like.
Hardly anyone genuinely believes Melee is a flawless game and should be "ported" 100% faithfully to the new age.

expand your mind to really think outside the box for what actually defines a platform fighter

Agree.

stop viewing traditional fighting games as old relics

I will not. You have assumed you know why I consider them so when I haven't mentioned even one reason why.
You don't know why. Maybe you should ask.

the genre has continuously evolved over the decades

And yet this evolution has led up to an industry which many fans regard as perhaps the most stagnant it has ever been.
The changes that have been implemented have not addressed all the long-standing concerns people have had for decades now, and have introduced new issues of their own.
Hence why, again, fans are starting to take notice of SSB and reevaluate their earlier judgments about it. It is a shame that tr45h could be many of those peoples' introductions to the potential of future fighting games, considering how unambitious it is itself.

I think, that success lies in what I said above. Not in simply copying your favorite game, and hoping to cater to an already niche audience, but in being inspired but crafting something truly original that can draw a new audience.

I'm sure we have different mindsets that fill in the blanks of this statement, but on the face of it, we can agree here.

 

[Zoa]

That was really cool of you to do. I'll accept your apology and move on from the discussion.

 

[Zoa]

Hahaha. Nohbl, I got Brawl Minus. You mentioned Dedede, so I gave him a surface level analysis in training mode. Just messing around and whatnot. I love how he can whistle and command his Wadde Dees/Doos to jump, attack, or fall down. Is there anything else I'm missing with him?

 

[Nohbl]

Hahaha. Nohbl, I got Brawl Minus.

That's cool; glad you're trying it out. It's super fun.

I love how he can whistle and command his Wadde Dees/Doos to jump, attack, or fall down. Is there anything else I'm missing with him?

You start off using the whistle to make use of the Waddles as attacks. First it's just pressing the whistle to make them spin or shoot lasers. Next it evolves to making them jump to get on to platforms, so that they can attack there---and then using the jump as an attack itself.
Then, once you get more comfortable, you don't use the whistle to order attacks directly, but instead to position the Waddles such that you can attack them yourself to use them as attacks.
You smack them around with f-tilt, up smash, f-smash, d-tilt, bair, even nair and dair (which is his weirdest, most challenging move)---and all of these have different trajectories.
Really, King Dedede has just a ridiculous amount of options. You can get by and have fun perfectly fine just by throwing them out and just spamming neutral B. But you might get the itch to do more wild, brain-expanding stuff, and let me tell you---he has it waiting for you. For me, that's the spirit of Brawl Minus---maximizing your characters' options in ways safe and sane developers would never dream of.

Beside that, up throw up tilt, and down throw dash attack are the cheese that replaces the butter for your bread. You can use them at 0% all the way to kill percent. He has a chain grab with down throw.

That's all you would need to know for now. He's just an amazing, and unique character. I guess you can imagine Rosalina & Luma on steroids, and that's him.

Don't sleep on your boy Lucario, though.
https://forums.brawlminus.net/threa...s-way-forward-or-an-over-convoluted-fix.1627/
But don't feel obligated to play him. More than a few characters in here who feel too weird for me even though I use them in other games.

 

[Zoa]

That's cool; glad you're trying it out. It's super fun.

You start off using the whistle to make use of the Waddles as attacks. First it's just pressing the whistle to make them spin or shoot lasers. Next it evolves to making them jump to get on to platforms, so that they can attack there---and then using the jump as an attack itself.
Then, once you get more comfortable, you don't use the whistle to order attacks directly, but instead to position the Waddles such that you can attack them yourself to use them as attacks.
You smack them around with f-tilt, up smash, f-smash, d-tilt, bair, even nair and dair (which is his weirdest, most challenging move)---and all of these have different trajectories.
Really, King Dedede has just a ridiculous amount of options. You can get by and have fun perfectly fine just by throwing them out and just spamming neutral B. But you might get the itch to do more wild, brain-expanding stuff, and let me tell you---he has it waiting for you. For me, that's the spirit of Brawl Minus---maximizing your characters' options in ways safe and sane developers would never dream of.

Beside that, up throw up tilt, and down throw dash attack are the cheese that replaces the butter for your bread. You can use them at 0% all the way to kill percent. He has a chain grab with down throw.

That's all you would need to know for now. He's just an amazing, and unique character. I guess you can imagine Rosalina & Luma on steroids, and that's him.

Don't sleep on your boy Lucario, though.
https://forums.brawlminus.net/threa...s-way-forward-or-an-over-convoluted-fix.1627/
But don't feel obligated to play him. More than a few characters in here who feel too weird for me even though I use them in other games.

Lmao this sounds awesome. I gotta give it a try. I saw that thread last night actually. I'm guessing they had to do something about DT spam because of the intangibility spam? While on the subject, I was trying him out a lot actually. Aerials out of Extremespeed is soooo bonkers. Especially when that momentum is actually retained, and not having to use an aura charge for it.

I dig a lot of the stuff BM did for Luc. His Aura Sphere is particular. I like it much more than what PM did with it. I have never been fond of the changes to it. Especially charged Aura Sphere. I really don't like the zigzag path it takes, and it loses speed plus distance as it's charged. Really only baby Aura Spheres are useful if you ask me. Charged AS just doesn't kill even remotely quick enough to make up for the shortcomings. Plus there's really no need to use it either when you're going to be using ASC so much. It's just so bad in PM.

I like the Close Combat addition a lot. Plus the graphical effects on a fully charged FE are something I've wanted on Luc for a long time. FE seems alright to me despite the creator of the thread saying quite a few things against it. Maybe tone down a couple things from what I read, but the idea doesn't seem bad in practice to me. Just multiplying attack damage by 1.2x isn't that big of a deal on Luc. Especially since his damage output isn't amazing to begin with.

That aside I found the craziness that is his held up taunt. This is bonkers. It turns him into the ultimate glass cannon. I love it. So much damage, and it stacks with the FE multiplier. It's a gamble, but can pay off if ahead in stocks, or make it the ultimate comeback.

Is there anywhere I can find the changes that happened to individual characters from Brawl to BM? I looked at ssbwiki, but it seemed clearly outdated. I'd love to look into each character.

 

[Nohbl]

Is there anywhere I can find the changes that happened to individual characters from Brawl to BM? I looked at ssbwiki, but it seemed clearly outdated. I'd love to look into each character.

http://blog.brawlminus.net/characters#_=_ (not the most up to date either, but largely accurate

Brawl Minus Character Introductions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQqYqMyxI3k&list=PL2qMQNz0t2iEcdhDHUCdiqobhbw6ClMSO

Spoiler

Need any recommendations on who to get started with? Pichu is hard, but really good.

 

[Zoa]

http://blog.brawlminus.net/characters#_=_ (not the most up to date either, but largely accurate


View attachment 183275


View attachment 183276

Brawl Minus Character Introductions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQqYqMyxI3k&list=PL2qMQNz0t2iEcdhDHUCdiqobhbw6ClMSO

Spoiler

Need any recommendations on who to get started with? Pichu is hard, but really good.

Thanks again, Nohbl. Can't say I need help choosing who to main, but any recommendations for others I'll take like a secondary or tertiary. Still going with Luc in this game. He's really the only character aside from Mewtwo or a Link I'd main in Smash as I go by favorites. Also that Luc gif is way outdated. Now it maxes him out at 999% lol.

 

[spinalwolf]

Glad to see Brawl minus getting some love here! One of my favorite brawl mods. Back to the topic at hand however. Wavedashing actually does exist in Ultimate but sadly its not really practical. Dash dancing is actually pretty useful and pretty good in neutral. Not amazing like it is in say Melee for example but still solid and honestly this game really doesn't need L-cancelling since Landing lag has been reduced drastically. In fact I would argue L-cancelling is a terrible mechanic since there's no reason not to L-cancel aerials in Melee and PM. Just make landing lag reduced. The new speed and movement makes the game much more offensive and fast paced. Also I'm not sure where this misconception comes from that Ultimate has no combos. Ultimate actually has even more combos than smash 4 and there's even been tons of 0-death combos from a good chunk of the cast (Metaknight, Ice Climbers, Belmonts, etc). I agree that the game isn't perfect and for sure its not my ideal of a perfect smash game. Its a huge step in the right direction though and I think people are being way too harsh on the game simply because it doesn't have everything they want.

 

[Zoa]

Glad to see Brawl minus getting some love here! One of my favorite brawl mods. Back to the topic at hand however. Wavedashing actually does exist in Ultimate but sadly its not really practical. Dash dancing is actually pretty useful and pretty good in neutral. Not amazing like it is in say Melee for example but still solid and honestly this game really doesn't need L-cancelling since Landing lag has been reduced drastically. In fact I would argue L-cancelling is a terrible mechanic since there's no reason not to L-cancel aerials in Melee and PM. Just make landing lag reduced. The new speed and movement makes the game much more offensive and fast paced. Also I'm not sure where this misconception comes from that Ultimate has no combos. Ultimate actually has even more combos than smash 4 and there's even been tons of 0-death combos from a good chunk of the cast (Metaknight, Ice Climbers, Belmonts, etc). I agree that the game isn't perfect and for sure its not my ideal of a perfect smash game. Its a huge step in the right direction though and I think people are being way too harsh on the game simply because it doesn't have everything they want.

Yeah, Ultimate isn't bad, but still falls short in some areas which is why I'm not an active player of it. Most of what you said I've always agreed on about the game, or just the mechanics in general

-Wavedashing isn't practical because 18 frames of end lag versus ten in Melee and PM. Plus you can't immediately just jump and diagonally air dodge into the stage IIRC.
-DD being back will help out neutral a lot. This really needed to come back more than wavedashing anyways. It's just a more consistent tool in neutral because it's used a lot more.
-L-cancel has always been a bad mechanic because it's just an arbitrary button press. You'll never see me say that Ultimate didn't get landing lag right because it did get it right. I've always been saying this was on of the best changes about it. That and the frame three jump squats.

But to the combo thing, zero to deaths have always been common just as a game starts out because people have to learn to DI in each new game, and learn the MUs. As time goes by they get much rarer, and generally stopped happening altogether/for the most part past Melee once the meta has reached a certain point. The games lack the speed of 64 and Melee, plus the ability to hitstun cancel into a really good air dodge for Brawl and Smash 4 limited follow ups overall. Bayo was the only character capable of doing it consistently just because of how bonkers toxic her kit is overall. I would say give the game much more time before using this as an example. Let the meta develop, and if these are still a common occurrence, then it would be a good point to use.

I agree Ultimate is a step in the right direction, but the game still isn't enough if you ask me. These are what I have problems with:

-Everything just lives forever. It is so absurdly common for a character to live past 150%. It slows the game down constantly. It's not fun. Plus given the lack of follow ups at higher percents, you can't really get many kill confirms, which I go into my second point.
-Lack of mid percent to high percent combos, and lack of kill confirms. R3D3MON said this already in the same thread a long while back, but this game really lacks combos past low percents unless this character has a low knockback move that can chain into itself like Meta Knight uair. Balloon knockback sees to this. Plus moves in general just have high base knockback/knockback scaling/combination of the two. This isn't a traditional fighter where chipping will work. There have to be follow ups into kill moves at higher percents, or else we have the same exact defensive problem with Brawl and Smash 4 where the game devolves into neutral constantly, get one or two hits in, then resets to neutral.
-Recoveries are still WAY too good.

 

[R3D3MON]

Quick Disclaimer: Dash Dancing does not exist in Ultimate. What is happening is an easier-to-utilize version of fox trotting. The only dash dancing mechanic in Ultimate is the same one from Smash 4, where you have to rapidly jerk your control stick left and right to basically dash dance in place. Granted, the new fox trotting mechanic in Ultimate is much more practical and effective for ground pressure than the one from Smash 4, so it is a very welcome change, but I would highly suggest people to stop misusing terminology, or we might get more situations like "perfect pivots".

 

[Zoa]

Quick Disclaimer: Dash Dancing does not exist in Ultimate. What is happening is an easier-to-utilize version of fox trotting. The only dash dancing mechanic in Ultimate is the same one from Smash 4, where you have to rapidly jerk your control stick left and right to basically dash dance in place. Granted, the new fox trotting mechanic in Ultimate is much more practical and effective for ground pressure than the one from Smash 4, so it is a very welcome change, but I would highly suggest people to stop misusing terminology, or we might get more situations like "perfect pivots".

Hm. Interesting. What were the differences between fox trots and DD again? Been a while since I had seen that term. Is it something about how the initial dash animation is played out?

 

[R3D3MON]

Hm. Interesting. What were the differences between fox trots and DD again? Been a while since I had seen that term. Is it something about how the initial dash animation is played out?

Basically, dash dancing results from the ability to cancel your initial dash animation with another initial dash animation through some range of frames. This range is significant because you can control your dash dancing distance, so you have a much more precise control of your movement without being locked into some set distance.

Fox-trotting is the movement that results from inputting a dash at the end of your dash animation. This is good because some characters have better dash speed than run speed, so characters like Melee Marth can effectively move across the stage. However, fox-trotting is a set distance based on your dash animation length, so you cannot control how far you can go.

Combination of DD + fox-trotting allows effective bait and punish, precise ground control, and efficient movement (esp. for some characters more than others), but one does not replace the other like what some uninformed Sm4sh people might think, unfortunately. I used to be in this boat and now I know better.

 

[spinalwolf]

Quick Disclaimer: Dash Dancing does not exist in Ultimate. What is happening is an easier-to-utilize version of fox trotting. The only dash dancing mechanic in Ultimate is the same one from Smash 4, where you have to rapidly jerk your control stick left and right to basically dash dance in place. Granted, the new fox trotting mechanic in Ultimate is much more practical and effective for ground pressure than the one from Smash 4, so it is a very welcome change, but I would highly suggest people to stop misusing terminology, or we might get more situations like "perfect pivots".

My apologies. I use the term however because of how similar it is to dash dancing. Though I'm aware its mostly fox trotting.

 

[spinalwolf]

Yeah, Ultimate isn't bad, but still falls short in some areas which is why I'm not an active player of it. Most of what you said I've always agreed on about the game, or just the mechanics in general

-Wavedashing isn't practical because 18 frames of end lag versus ten in Melee and PM. Plus you can't immediately just jump and diagonally air dodge into the stage IIRC.
-DD being back will help out neutral a lot. This really needed to come back more than wavedashing anyways. It's just a more consistent tool in neutral because it's used a lot more.
-L-cancel has always been a bad mechanic because it's just an arbitrary button press. You'll never see me say that Ultimate didn't get landing lag right because it did get it right. I've always been saying this was on of the best changes about it. That and the frame three jump squats.

But to the combo thing, zero to deaths have always been common just as a game starts out because people have to learn to DI in each new game, and learn the MUs. As time goes by they get much rarer, and generally stopped happening altogether/for the most part past Melee once the meta has reached a certain point. The games lack the speed of 64 and Melee, plus the ability to hitstun cancel into a really good air dodge for Brawl and Smash 4 limited follow ups overall. Bayo was the only character capable of doing it consistently just because of how bonkers toxic her kit is overall. I would say give the game much more time before using this as an example. Let the meta develop, and if these are still a common occurrence, then it would be a good point to use.

I agree Ultimate is a step in the right direction, but the game still isn't enough if you ask me. These are what I have problems with:

-Everything just lives forever. It is so absurdly common for a character to live past 150%. It slows the game down constantly. It's not fun. Plus given the lack of follow ups at higher percents, you can't really get many kill confirms, which I go into my second point.
-Lack of mid percent to high percent combos, and lack of kill confirms. R3D3MON said this already in the same thread a long while back, but this game really lacks combos past low percents unless this character has a low knockback move that can chain into itself like Meta Knight uair. Balloon knockback sees to this. Plus moves in general just have high base knockback/knockback scaling/combination of the two. This isn't a traditional fighter where chipping will work. There have to be follow ups into kill moves at higher percents, or else we have the same exact defensive problem with Brawl and Smash 4 where the game devolves into neutral constantly, get one or two hits in, then resets to neutral.
-Recoveries are still WAY too good.

Agreed, the meta is still developing and I think its too early to judge anything. We'll either see more combos as the game progresses or less of them once people master DI. Its hard to say but either way the disadvantage state in this game will help make stocks fly by much quicker once people get use to abusing disadvantage state. Though that's just my prediction. I agree with you for the most part though. There needs to be more combos and kill confirms in this game. I also agree that recoveries are still too good. While edge guarding has been buffed overall. Its still common for characters to get back to the ledge for free. Though not nearly as often as smash 4.

 

[Zoa]

Basically, dash dancing results from the ability to cancel your initial dash animation with another initial dash animation through some range of frames. This range is significant because you can control your dash dancing distance, so you have a much more precise control of your movement without being locked into some set distance.

Fox-trotting is the movement that results from inputting a dash at the end of your dash animation. This is good because some characters have better dash speed than run speed, so characters like Melee Marth can effectively move across the stage. However, fox-trotting is a set distance based on your dash animation length, so you cannot control how far you can go.

Combination of DD + fox-trotting allows effective bait and punish, precise ground control, and efficient movement (esp. for some characters more than others), but one does not replace the other like what some uninformed Sm4sh people might think, unfortunately. I used to be in this boat and now I know better.

Thanks. So the major difference is basically fox trotting is inputting another dash input at the end of the dash animation.

 

[.Marik]

are you ****in' people really still here postin' this ****

>user was warned for this post

Oh thank goodness the valiant moderators are around to hand out infractions for literally nothing. Guess that's what happens when you spend all your time online circle jerking others in your little clique and don't actually play Smash.

Never change Crashboards.

 

[Zoa]

I got an e-mail asking for my input about Ultimate, so I gave it to them.

 

[Nohbl]

imo remove ledge trumping and recoveries are no longer an issue

 

[Zoa]

imo remove ledge trumping and recoveries are no longer an issue

How so? Would be interested in your thoughts on this, as I hardly noticed any major differences in this game aside from multiple recoveries now requiring spacing to auto snap.

 

[Nohbl]

How so? Would be interested in your thoughts on this, as I hardly noticed any major differences in this game aside from multiple recoveries now requiring spacing to auto snap.

Take Villager for example.
One of the farthest recoveries in the game, but hardly safe and not dangerous.
Unless your character has a sword, you'd be hard-pressed to release ledge and pop their balloons without missing one or allowing Villager to take the ledge you've left open.
However, if you do nothing, Villager not only takes ledge from you, but also leaves you in a compromising position.

If Villager could not ledge trump, then they'd be forced to recover over you, on to stage, because exiting the balloons puts them into freefall.
In either case, you are either able to punish their high recovery fairly easily, or else punish their landing a little less easily---both of which still allow you to punish, versus not at all when you get ledge trumped.

So, despite Villager's "strong" (in some sense or another) recovery, that recovery in a game without ledge trumping (in other words, with ledge hogging reinstated) would be far from free.
The same applies to any character that just floats up without a hitbox (like K. Rool & Duck Hunt?).

So I say that removing ledge trumping would make recoveries less free. Doing that alone won't "fix" everything, because wonky hitboxes and grab boxes still could save a character in many situations where your ledge-hogging invulnerability or your ledge-climbing ledge intangibility runs out. However, it would fix the main issue of it being entirely too easy for characters to return to the stage safely, which slows the game down by making characters live longer than they would otherwise.

Auto-snap is another matter. Brawl-like games have it, Melee-like games don't. Arguments could be made for or against either.

 

[Zoa]

Take Villager for example.
One of the farthest recoveries in the game, but hardly safe and not dangerous.
Unless your character has a sword, you'd be hard-pressed to release ledge and pop their balloons without missing one or allowing Villager to take the ledge you've left open.
However, if you do nothing, Villager not only takes ledge from you, but also leaves you in a compromising position.

If Villager could not ledge trump, then they'd be forced to recover over you, on to stage, because exiting the balloons puts them into freefall.
In either case, you are either able to punish their high recovery fairly easily, or else punish their landing a little less easily---both of which still allow you to punish, versus not at all when you get ledge trumped.

So, despite Villager's "strong" (in some sense or another) recovery, that recovery in a game without ledge trumping (in other words, with ledge hogging reinstated) would be far from free.
The same applies to any character that just floats up without a hitbox (like K. Rool & Duck Hunt?).

So I say that removing ledge trumping would make recoveries less free. Doing that alone won't "fix" everything, because wonky hitboxes and grab boxes still could save a character in many situations where your ledge-hogging invulnerability or your ledge-climbing ledge intangibility runs out. However, it would fix the main issue of it being entirely too easy for characters to return to the stage safely, which slows the game down by making characters live longer than they would otherwise.

Auto-snap is another matter. Brawl-like games have it, Melee-like games don't. Arguments could be made for or against either.

Wait, not sure I'm following you. Were you initially saying that recoveries in Ultimate are far from free? I get you're saying that without trumping, his recovery and others would be much less lenient, but I'm not following the initial context of your post prior to this. That's throwing me off.

 

[Nohbl]

Wait, not sure I'm following you.

One of your complaints is that recoveries are too strong in this game.
My opinion is that the recoveries being strong is not the main issue and shouldn't be the primary focus.
Instead, you should look toward mechanics like ledge trumping.
Ledge trumping and the like are what really prolong the time of a match by making it more difficult to take stocks.
Removing ledge trumping would make the strong recoveries in tr45h less of an issue by making it easier to edgeguard, more dangerous to recover, and thus quicker to drop stocks.
It is not a perfect fix to the "issue", but it would be a major step towards a complete fix.

Were you initially saying that recoveries in Ultimate are far from free?

No.

I'm not following the initial context of your post prior to this

"Recovery options are way too strong in this game.... Because of this edgeguarding is very hard to do when a lot of moves cover so much distance... prolongs the issue of people living forever."

 

[Zoa]

One of your complaints is that recoveries are too strong in this game.
My opinion is that the recoveries being strong is not the main issue and shouldn't be the primary focus.
Instead, you should look toward mechanics like ledge trumping.
Ledge trumping and the like are what really prolong the time of a match by making it more difficult to take stocks.
Removing ledge trumping would make the strong recoveries in tr45h less of an issue by making it easier to edgeguard, more dangerous to recover, and thus quicker to drop stocks.
It is not a perfect fix to the "issue", but it would be a major step towards a complete fix.

No.

"Recovery options are way too strong in this game.... Because of this edgeguarding is very hard to do when a lot of moves cover so much distance... prolongs the issue of people living forever."

That’s actually one of the reasons why I was saying recoveries are way too strong. Aside from that, magnet ledges are another contributing factor. Plus most recoveries have very far reach, with lots of the cast having mixups as well. It’s a culmination of all those issues that just makes recovering in general way too safe.