SSB64 Stage Legality - Debate

[Zantetsu]

We don't ever have much good things to debate about here on the ssb64 boards. The only thing that I've seen really debated on is the tier list which has been going on forever. I thought I would bring a new debate in here to add something else to talk about. The boards have been pretty dull lately so why not start another debate?

Stage Legality has always been different in almost every SSB64 tournament. Some put Hyrule neutral while some think it should be completely banned. This thread is for us, as a community, to discuss our opinions on what stages should be neutral, counterpicked, and banned.

I'm interested in what people will bring up and hopefully, this can be a flame free debate. Remember we're a community and this is a thread to post our opinions without having to be worried about getting a hated response. Questioning a persons list and having a non-flamable debate is perfectly fine but bringing up things like "You suck at smash so your list sucks" or "That doesn't make sense. That list is stupid" is uncalled for. Craigg, I'm hoping you'll watch this closely because I'm sure there will be some flamers in here. Keep your infractions and warning ready

 

[Tigerb0mbz]

keep it ftw hyrule is imbahax

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I will go through a list of all of the stages of smash 64 and what I think. I will also include the Gameshark unlocked stages.

Neutral
Hyrule: Large space, no character has a major disadvantage in this stage, It is also the most common stage
Congo Jungle: The bottom of the stage allows bad recoveries to be helped. There is no apparent disadvantage to anyone besides that fact that it is more difficult to combo people

Neutral\Counterpick
Dreamland: The second most common stage. Too small for many characters. Gimps are more presant. Leaning more towards Counterpick

Counterpick
Kirby Beta Stage 2, Basically an smaller version of Battlefield but with a bottom that is like Congo Jungle. The areas that allow people to grab are weird so this is counterpick.
Saffron City: Ness's can whine. This stage allows every character to be gimped and to gimp equally. Large but not overly large. Pokemon aren't powerful enough to warrant a stage ban.

Counterpick/Banned
Peach's Castle: If the stage was more friendly to recoveries, I would say counterpick instantly. However, the odd platforms, the bumper in the middle, and the ungrabbable sides make me think otherwise. Either side, need more input from other people
Battlefield: Very good stage for spacing, Main problem is that Stage DI doesn't help as much here. I am still leaning more towards Counterpick than banned due to it being one of the few normal stages.
Planet Zebes: There is lava, but there are platforms to escape it. Also, this helps many characters due to their poor recovery skills. It is not overly large. Leaning more towards counterpick.
How to Play: Large flat stage, but a very deceptive ceiling and sides make it incredibly difficult to tell where you are going. Leaning more towards ban.

Banned
Kirby Beta 1: This stage was designed for combos. It is ridiculous from the invisible wall to the odd platforms. Plus, it is very large with an odd shaped kill zone.
Mushroom Kingdom, Camp style stage, walk off's aren't as much of a problem here but it is very easy to camp on this stage and just gimp by back throwing.
Sector Z: Hugest stage in the game. Overly large. Allows anyone to camp very well and people sometimes survive to over 150 in this stage. The main problem otherwise are the lasers which do 30 damage and insane Knockback + they can combo into a second laser.
Yoshi's: Clouds allows overpowered camping (looking at fox lasers). too large.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well, im not sure exactly where to start...so ill just state what i think and people can debate from there i suppose?

Dreamland and Hyrule are natural
Yoshi Story and Mushroom Kingdom are banned due to stalling and camping.
EVERYTHING else is a counter pick, Saffron doesnt give Ness a 0:100 match-up so there fore skill can over come (plus if your smart about it Ness' spike can actually be very powerful on Saffron)]

Since KoRo fast posted me (or w.e its called) ill throw into question;

Why do you find Dreamland a counter pick?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I find dreamland a counterpick due to the nature of smash 64.

Super Smash bros for n64 revolves around combos and gimps.

Dreamland is too small of stage and characters such as link, Samus, and in even some ways fox can't space as well due to its size. It makes the gimping aspect of smash bros even more powerful

 

[Superstar]

It's pretty much a given that stages in SSB64 should not be evaluated like stages in Melee. If we did, only stages allowed would be Dreamland and Kongo Jungle.

Dreamland and Hyrule are neutral or counterpick, there is no contest.

Agreed with Surri about Saffron. There is disadvantage for Ness, yes, but Ness' spike is deadly on Saffron. Do the pokemon also heal via Magnet? I might need to test XD [Charmander, mebe Venasaur. Chansey heals all]. Ness can be killed down the dents, true, but some can others. The thing to be deathly afraid of, spikes, are problems for a good amount of the cast [even Pikachu]. Ness just has it worse. Still, I feel it's better as a counterpick.

Yoshi Story and Mush Kingdrom should be banned. No ifs and or buts. Also, I feel Zebes is worse than Sector Z, at least when it comes to hazards. And camping is an issue on Hyrule too. If Zebes was banned, I would not feel bad for it. Hell, I still have a video there I'd like to upload. XD

 

[Dash_Fox]

Every stage is legal except Sector Z.

Ness can ban Pokemon stadium because of his recovery.

 

[Blackshadow]

Neutral
Hyrule: Decent size, tornados aren't too much of a problem, no real disadvantages for any characters.
Dreamland: Fairly basic stages, no problems for any character, only obstacle is Whispy Woods winds, but that isn't a problem.
Congo Jungle: No disadvantages to any characters, and any character who uses the barrel is so vulnerable that the barrel doesn't affect gameplay.

Counterpick
Peach's Castle: A fairly neutral stage (bumper isn't much of a problem, and the side platforms are like a more tame version of the **** Tent), but the ungrabbable ledges pose a real problem, and so this stage should be counterpick.
Saffron City: Just because one character has a problem with a stage doesn't warrant a ban, in my opinion. The point of counterpicking is so that you pick a stage that disadvantages your opponent and benefits yourself, so to ban this stage would be silly. The only other objectable content is the Pokemon, which aren't much of a threat, so Saffron should be counterpick.

Banned
Zebes: The lava is like one whole stage tornado, and at low percents is unescapable.
Yoshi's Story: The usual problems of excessive cloud camping, which is aided by it's large size.
Sector Z: Camping, Arwings and it's huge size is more than enough for a ban.
Mushroom Kingdom: Throw gimping and camping on the sides, and pipe camping warrants a ban.

 

[link6616]

Saffron city for Ness is really winnable.
I'm not the highest level player around, although I beat nearly everyone I play online with ness...

I choose saffron as a counter pick. There are SO many places to spike it's just brilliant.

If i's going to be disallowed it should be because of ness being powerful there, not anyone else over powering him.

 

[Zantetsu]

Saffron city for Ness is really winnable.
I'm not the highest level player around, although I beat nearly everyone I play online with ness...

I choose saffron as a counter pick. There are SO many places to spike it's just brilliant.

If i's going to be disallowed it should be because of ness being powerful there, not anyone else over powering him.

Ever been stuck between 2 buildings?

Ever attempted to recover through pkthunder?

Think about it for a sec...

 

[AvengerAngel]

Neutral
Hyrule: Decent size, tornados aren't too much of a problem, no real disadvantages for any characters.
Dreamland: Fairly basic stages, no problems for any character, only obstacle is Whispy Woods winds, but that isn't a problem.

Counterpick
Congo Jungle: No disadvantages to any characters, and any character who uses the barrel is so vulnerable that the barrel doesn't affect gameplay.
Peach's Castle: A fairly neutral stage (bumper isn't much of a problem, and the side platforms are like a more tame version of the **** Tent), but the ungrabbable ledges pose a real problem, and so this stage should be counterpick.
Saffron City: Just because one character has a problem with a stage doesn't warrant a ban, in my opinion. The point of counterpicking is so that you pick a stage that disadvantages your opponent and benefits yourself, so to ban this stage would be silly. The only other objectable content is the Pokemon, which aren't much of a threat, so Saffron should be counterpick.

Banned
Zebes: The lava is like one whole stage tornado, and at low percents is unescapable.
Yoshi's Story: The usual problems of excessive cloud camping, which is aided by it's large size.
Sector Z: Camping, Arwings and it's huge size is more than enough for a ban.
Mushroom Kingdom: Throw gimping and camping on the sides, and pipe camping warrants a ban.

qft. I think Congo Jungle should be a counterpick tho (I edited the quote )

 

[Blue Yoshi]

My opinion:

Peach's Castle: Counterpick. Not neutral enough to be a neutral, but no reason to ban (other than bumper can save someone from a rest kill with a free kill on puff... )

Kongo Jungle: Counterpick. I see why some want this as neutral, but I think it should stay a counterpick.

Hyrule: Neutral. Probably everyone's favourite stage, and most used stage. There are effectively three parts to the stage, and you don't have to go to one part if you don't want to (I don't go to the right side aka **** tent. I force my opponents to leave, either by shooting a projectile at them or by telling them I'm not going there. Yes, I have typed in the middle of a match that I was not going to go there.)

Zebes: Counterpick. Everyone hates this stage because the lava kills you. I love it because the lava saves you. If you got hit by the lava, you were likely going to die anyways. When the lava rises, you can easily go to the top so that you don't get hit. Defenitely not neutral, but no reason to ban it.

Mushroom Kingdom: Ban. Walk-off edges. If you projectile spam on an edge, you force opponents to go to you, where you can back-throw them for a 0% kill. Too bad... like this stage.

Yoshi's Story: Ban. Cloud camping.

Dreamland: Neutral. Probably the most neutral stage there is. The wind does not hurt recovery, only pushes those already on the stage. Proof: face an edge when the wind is blowing and mash the taunt button. you will taunt cancel on every ledge except the far right one (wind doesn't reach). No reason not to have as neutral.

Sector Z (MY OPINION): Counterpick. I honestly don't see why this is banned. You can avoid projectile spam by going behind the fin. The wall on the right side is not as bad as the **** tent in Hyrule. The ships that come are predictable. If you play this stage 5 times, you'll know where each ship goes, what it will do, when it will shoot, etc. There's even a warning sound telling you that a ship is coming (sounds like the wind?). When it shoots from the back, you can dodge the shots by moving anywhere. If you stay still, you get shot. If you move a little, you don't get shot (best if you jump). I think I covered all the reasons people want this stage banned...

Pokemon Stadium: Counterpick. No reason to ban. Ness players who don't like this stage can use their alts, or if they don't have an alt, then their fault. Banning a stage because it might be bad for one character... If that's the case, why not make melee Yoshi's Story a counterpick, since Marth has soo many advantages on that stage? I see more reason to make Yoshi's story a counterpick than Pokemon Stadium banned. Don't worry, I think Yoshi's Story should stay neutral. Just using it as an example.

*gameshark stages*

How to play: Neutral / counterpick. If I remember right, the bottom is like Congo Jungle where you can pass through the bottom onto the stage. It's flat with one platform. Pretty neutral in my opinion. I don't remember if how wide the side boundaries are... If I remember right, they barely exist. If that's the case, this stage should be counterpick. Otherwise, neutral.

Kirby beta stage 1 (aka SMALL): neutral. It's a smaller Dreamland, with a Congo Jungle bottom.

Kirby beta stage 2 (aka NEW): Ban. Melee Hyrule effect, too many obstacles, etc.

Metal Mario: Counterpick. Too small to be neutral (there's not much on this stage). Yet, there isn't any reason to ban it.

Battlefield / Polygon stage: neutral. Basically Dreamland.

Final Destination (If it ever gets fixed for multiplayer use): Neutral. No explanation necessary.

Race To The Finish: Neutral. Come on, who doesn't want to have an epic fight on this stage? KOing someone is hard (they basically have to let themselves be killed). And yes, KOs are possible on this stage.

.
.
.

So... the only stage I would change it's state would be Sector Z. Please read my reasons. Maybe I missed something that makes it banned, or maybe I have a flawed reason. Or maybe people want it banned because the don't like the ships' lazers, just like people don't like the lava. If you play it enough times, it's just like hyrule. I'm only suggesting it as a counterpick... let me know your side of the story. I'm not a pro, but I'm not a banned-stage-in-tournaments noob.

 

[marthmaster04]

Counterpick: hyrule

Pro counterpick: why? cuz im sick of the wall and the camping which is hard to get past in any case, its a runners stage. Its a easy stage that makes easy combos even easier. And combos that shouldnt be present become 0-deaths because of something thats not even part of a character or a players skill. I've abused this myself yes and it makes hard situations easier, its a aid for situations beyond your control and gives players control of a match easier.

the tornados are another issue, its like having a item on that..tho the points of spawn are known, it is STILL A RANDOM FACTOR IN A MATCH. and LIKE items, gives a player a temporary unfair advantage they didn't earn.

----------------------------------

reasons against: Though some or near all aspects of the stage are gay, its a good overall stage for being creative with your combos, and the amount you're pressured by camping, and wall combos is completely in your own power to avoid.

The sides offer many more uses for grabs, tilts, fairs, bairs, and uairs and sometimes dairs creating combo potential beyond the characters physical thresh hold for keeping a character in a combo with moves that would normally knock them away.
-------------------

Battlefield: Neutral

the good stuff: Just like battlefield in melee, this is a balanced stage with not many bad points. High platforms allow for different approaches and different combos others wouldnt expect. Its just a good overall stage and really needs to be more neutral.

bad stuff: Cuz i know SOMEONE will pout about this, the edges. Just like in melee, like i said. It has gay edges that CAN **** you up. But its entirely up to the user to recover, any character can edgegaurd any character on any stage regardless, there is no exception. So No johns.


Hmm thats all, in b4 butthurt, elitism, angry ppl, etc.

 

[marthmaster04]

Counterpick: hyrule

Pro counterpick: why? cuz im sick of the wall and the camping which is hard to get past in any case, its a runners stage. Its a easy stage that makes easy combos even easier. And combos that shouldnt be present become 0-deaths because of something thats not even part of a character or a players skill. I've abused this myself yes and it makes hard situations easier, its a aid for situations beyond your control and gives players control of a match easier.

the tornados are another issue, its like having a item on that..tho the points of spawn are known, it is STILL A RANDOM FACTOR IN A MATCH. and LIKE items, gives a player a temporary unfair advantage they didn't earn.

----------------------------------

reasons against: Though some or near all aspects of the stage are gay, its a good overall stage for being creative with your combos, and the amount you're pressured by camping, and wall combos is completely in your own power to avoid.

The sides offer many more uses for grabs, tilts, fairs, bairs, and uairs and sometimes dairs creating combo potential beyond the characters physical thresh hold for keeping a character in a combo with moves that would normally knock them away.
-------------------

Battlefield: Neutral

the good stuff: Just like battlefield in melee, this is a balanced stage with not many bad points. High platforms allow for different approaches and different combos others wouldnt expect. Its just a good overall stage and really needs to be more neutral.

bad stuff: Cuz i know SOMEONE will pout about this, the edges. Just like in melee, like i said. It has gay edges that CAN **** you up. But its entirely up to the user to recover, any character can edgegaurd any character on any stage regardless, there is no exception. So No johns.


Hmm thats all, in b4 butthurt, elitism, angry ppl, etc.

OH i forgot to add, the no clouds yoshi story should DEFINITELY be neutral, it has good sides, plat forms are fine, and it doesnt lead to anymore gimping than any other stage. PLUS ITS SO KAWAII DESU NE OMG

bad points: ppl will john about it being too cute, srsly stage 4 stocks your eyes

EDIT: why the **** did i qoute instead of edit?....oh well

 

[Lawrencelot]

Hyrule: I'm gonna come out and say it: I don't like Hyrule as a neutral stage (at least for singles, for teams it's perfect). The size is not the problem, but the several areas with a wall between them are (on the left side I mean the really low wall that seperates the diagonal ground with normal ground). Hyrule's main ground with the three platforms is a great level, and so is the left edge, but the wall in between makes it possible to just wait on whatever area is best for you, and do nothing or spam projectiles until your opponent has the gut or makes the error of coming towards you. And then I didn't even speak of the right side. This is how I play when I'm on Hyrule: "oh, I got high percent, let's hide in the tower. Then if the opponent joins me, either he combos the hell out of me but I still survive twice as long as in a normal stage, or I combo the hell out of him and his percentage is suddenly 100+%." The thing is: in friendlies this is no problem, you just recklessly join the fight, but for a 'real' match it is more advantegeous to stay in the area that is best for your situation, which the opponent should do also, resulting into a campfest.

Not ban-worthy, but I say Hyrule should be counterpick for singles and neutral for teams.

Dreamland: A perfect stage, if it wasn't so small. I hear people complain about the wind sometimes, but I find the tornadoes in Hyrule much more irritating, and I didn't even mention that above. It's just a minor hazard. About the size: I don't think it's too small to not let it be a neutral stage. At least, the ground (the level border is something different, you can easily throw someone to his doom but I'm not sure if this results into a really big advantage for some chars). The ceiling is not too low, so DI up will often save Link's or other chars with bad recovery. The stage is good for comboing but also leaves options to escape combo's (platforms). The horizontal ground gives this stage a plus when you compare it to Kongo Jungle for example. I think if you don't look at cheat stages, this one is the most neutral.

Peach Castle: funny stage, don't think there's a huge advantage for any char, but it's everything besides normal, so counterpick.

Kongo Jungle: Normal or counterpick, I don't know too much about the stage.

Other stages I don't know, I think Mushroom Kingdom, SectorZ and Yoshi's story should be banned, but I never play on Zebes or Saffron so no opinion on those two.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Even though both Marth an Law are right about the tower...due to the fact that EVERY char can take advantage of it, its still neutral

Personal preference doesn't make for a counter pick stage

 

[Lawrencelot]

Even though both Marth an Law are right about the tower...due to the fact that EVERY char can take advantage of it, its still neutral

Personal preference doesn't make for a counter pick stage

Hm that's the best point I've heard in favor of it. So you're saying: either ban it or let it be neutral? In that case, I agree it should be neutral, unless there would be a similar stage without the disadvantages I mentioned (like Final Destination with some platforms in the middle)

 

[Superstar]

I immediately respect Marth for putting up alternate views, except for Battlefield. That one was biased.

Ever been stuck between 2 buildings?

Ever attempted to recover through pkthunder?

Think about it for a sec...

Indeed I have. It's not too bad. Like once a match does that happen [times when I actually did get really spiked, I would have died with other chars too]. Still, it's worse for Ness than better. -_-

Also, in one series of matches where my recovery was ***** every single time I returned on every stage, Saffron left edge was the only point I could actually make it back [though he was still better so knocked me off again].

 

[Surri-Sama]

Hm that's the best point I've heard in favor of it. So you're saying: either ban it or let it be neutral? In that case, I agree it should be neutral, unless there would be a similar stage without the disadvantages I mentioned (like Final Destination with some platforms in the middle)

Sounds like you're talking about Dreamland

the OTHER neutral stage xP

 

[NixxxoN]

1. Neutral: Hyrule, Congo Jungle
2. Counterpick: Dreamland, Saffron City, Peach Castle
3. Banned: Yoshi's story, Sector Z, Mushroom Kingdom

4. Hard to say: Planet Zebes (counterpick or banned for lava?)

 

[Nintendude]

Zebes shouldn't be banned. The acid follows the exact same pattern every match and is easy enough to get away from.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Zebes shouldn't be banned. The acid follows the exact same pattern every match and is easy enough to get away from.

I agree, if your foe cannot adapt to a stage that has no char bias, its a counter pick!

Saying that I feel i should also say that Saffrons Ness bias isn't strong enough to make it ban able, and for a few reasons

1) It can be avoided to some degree...obviously you may end up getting stuck between buildings during some point in the match, but it you play defensively (omg camper!) it'll happen less

2) Holes all over the place only help Ness' super combo of Utilt-->Nair-->Dair...use it...it works!

 

[Fireblaster]

Neutral

Congo Jungle - Nothing bad happens here except a lucky save every once in a while

Dreamland - Sure it's easy to gimp here, but it just means you can't get hit first.

Counterpick

Zebes - The lava always goes through the same pattern every time and you can always tell how high it's gonna go by the initial drop it takes.

Saffron - Pokemon can really disrupt the pace of the match.

Peach's Castle - Only because the edges can't be grabbed

Hyrule - Tornados.... oh those ****ING tornados. Maybe we don't realize it, but these things cause way too much damage during matches. They ruin combos, they help combos for no reason, and for light characters automatically lose a stock if they get near it and have 120%+. They can also assist/disrupt edgeguards. Not to mention this stupid crap speeds up randomly. Oh and how bout that there tornado on that high platform which can kill jiggz at 40% and luigi at 60%? That's fair right? If this stage was in melee it would have been banned a long time ago. Only reason people have been keeping it is because frankly ssb64 has very few stages.

Banned

Yoshi's Island - Too big, campfest
Sector Z - See above + lasers that combo you to death.
Mushroom Kingdom - Only because of the pipes (not the pirahna plants). Slow characters like Luigi can almost never hit someone else running away through the pipes.

 

[Zantetsu]

Neutral

Congo Jungle - Nothing bad happens here except a lucky save every once in a while

Dreamland - Sure it's easy to gimp here, but it just means you can't get hit first.

Counterpick

Zebes - The lava always goes through the same pattern every time and you can always tell how high it's gonna go by the initial drop it takes.

Saffron - Pokemon can really disrupt the pace of the match.

Peach's Castle - Only because the edges can't be grabbed

Hyrule - Tornados.... oh those ****ING tornados. Maybe we don't realize it, but these things cause way too much damage during matches. They ruin combos, they help combos for no reason, and for light characters automatically lose a stock if they get near it and have 120%+. They can also assist/disrupt edgeguards. Not to mention this stupid crap speeds up randomly. Oh and how bout that there tornado on that high platform which can kill jiggz at 40% and luigi at 60%? That's fair right? If this stage was in melee it would have been banned a long time ago. Only reason people have been keeping it is because frankly ssb64 has very few stages.

Banned

Yoshi's Island - Too big, campfest
Sector Z - See above + lasers that combo you to death.
Mushroom Kingdom - Only because of the pipes (not the pirahna plants). Slow characters like Luigi can almost never hit someone else running away through the pipes.

This has to be my most agreed list so far.

 

[Superstar]

*Faps to Fireblaster's list*

Yar, I change my mind, Zebes >>> Sector Z. But lava combos are fun, right? XD

 

[Lawrencelot]

Sounds like you're talking about Dreamland

the OTHER neutral stage xP

Dreamland is not nearly as big as Final Destination, or melee even melee Dreamland

 

[Superstar]

What are you talking about, Final D is small in 64.

:3

 

[Lawrencelot]

I've never seen FD in 64... does it even exist? (with gameshark?)

 

[Surri-Sama]

I've never seen FD in 64... does it even exist? (with gameshark?)

The stage you fight MasterHand on is Technically FD :o

 

[NixxxoN]

not agree with fireblaster, because of the tornados, Hyrule is counterpick and not the small dreamland? lulz no...

 

[Surri-Sama]

not agree with fireblaster, because of the tornados, Hyrule is counterpick and not the small dreamland? lulz no...

This is a debate, if you’re going to say someone is wrong, post why with valid points….don’t just say

“LULZ NO WTF DUMMY!”

That doesn’t prove anything, and actually it lessens your credibility

 

[Nintendude]

Has anyone considered the possibility of implementing a neutral stage strike procedure for choosing the first match? Basically you can have 3 neutrals: Congo Jungle, Dreamland, and Hyrule. Each player strikes one of those stages and the one remaining is the stage for the first game of the set. People have been doing this kind of thing in Brawl tournaments recently since some of the "neutrals" are kind of iffy.

 

[marthmaster04]

Even though both Marth an Law are right about the tower...due to the fact that EVERY char can take advantage of it, its still neutral

Personal preference doesn't make for a counter pick stage

Its not JUST personal opinion. Its my 3-4 years of experience playing this game, watching the community and evolving with it. The community in general is the focus of what i meant. And each characters abuses and camps of said wall. it being my opinion or preference doesn't change the fact everything i said is a definite truth from LOTS of experience against the very best players. This is why i gave a valid counterpoint so the subject wouldn't be changed to avoid a direct counterpoint to what i said.

 

[Superstar]

Has anyone considered the possibility of implementing a neutral stage strike procedure for choosing the first match? Basically you can have 3 neutrals: Congo Jungle, Dreamland, and Hyrule. Each player strikes one of those stages and the one remaining is the stage for the first game of the set. People have been doing this kind of thing in Brawl tournaments recently since some of the "neutrals" are kind of iffy.

Hot **** I <3 this idea.

And marth, Surri just meant that it's neutral because every char can take advantage of it. A stage is counterpick when it benefits some characters more than others more than it should [and indeed it does].

 

[NixxxoN]

This is a debate, if you’re going to say someone is wrong, post why with valid points….don’t just say

“LULZ NO WTF DUMMY!”

That doesn’t prove anything, and actually it lessens your credibility

I thought i already stated the points, Hyrule is neutral stage, good size, doesnt affect much poor recovery characters, and tornados are there and you avoid them, theres no unfairness for anyone. And dreamland certainly is crap for bad recovery characters like Link, Ness and Fox... Plus the spacing

 

[Surri-Sama]

I thought i already stated the points, Hyrule is neutral stage, good size, doesnt affect much poor recovery characters, and tornados are there and you avoid them, theres no unfairness for anyone. And dreamland certainly is crap for bad recovery characters like Link, Ness and Fox... Plus the spacing

well if you would have said this as a counter point itd be fine...but i dunno...anyways

your forgetting one thing when you say its bad for poor recovering chars...

Dreamland doesnt ONLY affect recovery

Link, really gets a big help from the platforms, giving him more combos, plus its easier for him to pressure with projectiles on DL

Ness, its much easier to gimp with Ness on DL, all the simple, killer combos become more abundant

Fox, Laser spam becomes almost unavoidable and due to the platforms he can easily combo his aerials in all areas of Dreamland.

 

[Fireblaster]

tornados are there and you avoid them, theres no unfairness for anyone.

You must not have read the part of my post where I said that tornados cause way too much damage to be considered a "neutral" part of the stage. And yeah, it's so EASY to avoid a tornado when you walk into one that's offscreen or when it speeds up and hits you when you're comboing someone or when you're trying to edgeguard. Or hell, even when you do a laggy move and a tornado appears right there. Only NOOBS get caught like that, m i rite?

And dreamland certainly is crap for bad recovery characters like Link, Ness and Fox... Plus the spacing

Ness has very deadly combos on Dreamland, are you kidding me? Not to mention Fox with his freaking SHDL, there's no running away from that one. Oh, and Link will have a garbage recovery no matter which stage he's on, unless it's Mushroom Kingdom. Just because Hyrule is big enough that Link can play gay and run away the whole time doesn't mean that Dreamland makes Link worse. It just means that Link can do the same thing other projectile whores can do. Link's still dead if he gets grabbed/hit in either stage.

 

[NixxxoN]

Well, im not sure about fox... but fox players always told me that dreamland isnt good for Fox. You gotta be the first that says otherwise if i remember well. And about Ness and Link, you throw them out, and they're pretty much dead (if you can edgeguard)

Edit: If someone feels the tornados really annoy him so much, theres the tornado cheat (for online).

 

[Superstar]

Link, if you throw him out, will die. Ness as well, but he needs a higher % [he still has a second jump you know, with more height than Link's, not to mention he's floatier, since Link is the fastest faller]. Still, on Hyrule, as Link, I find the fight very often on the left, just from shifts in the match. Once there, you die just the same.

Also, tornados are not easy to avoid. Hell, I remember one situation when I was Mario, on the right side of Hyrule, opponent near tent. Tornado came from offscreen, and killed me. And in the words of Matt, nado always wins. XD

 

[Lawrencelot]

I get mindgamed by tornadoes. When I was fighting AA, he was somewhere on the right edge trying to recover. I was on the main ground, and I wanted to go right into and past the tower to edgeguard. I saw a tornado slowly going to the right so I waited. Then I moved into the combo area, and suddenly the tornado's speed went up and it went left while the tornado wasn't even at the edge yet. For a moment I thought AA was cheating lol.