SSB4 should be a Smash-style Fighter

[Kyu Puff]

This is an idea I had when SSB4 was first announced, and I think it's more likely now that Namco is on board. (Maybe not likely, but I really hope this is the direction they take it in...)

I don't know if it's been discussed already, but I kinda hope SSB4 takes on some traditional fighter elements in addition to what makes it unique. Final smashes might work if they were charged super-meter-style (and toned down a lot). Weaker moves could cancel into other moves (or just have shorter IASA on hit), each character could have a few weaker specials, etc. I just think a fighter with smash-style movement, DI, shields, and % would be really cool.

Revolver Action is a combo system used in many fighting games that allows players to chain weak moves into stronger moves. In Smash terms, this means you might be able to cancel jabs into tilts into smashes (but not the other way around). In my opinion, this type of combo system would make the game more fun and fast-paced, for beginners and competitive players alike.

Are these epic combos? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvxa9-ozThc

This is an exhibition from one of my favorite games. Like Kuma said, these kind of combos definitely aren't button mashing; they actually require a lot of precision and are usually situational (a combo might be completely different depending on what move you lead with, or how far away you are when you start it). Also note that in smash, there are no corners to get stuck in, only edges, so a lot of those corner loops wouldn't be possible.

But one thing that is true about fighting games is that the other player usually loses control of their character during a combo. DI is one of my favorite aspects of smash because it means that no combos are guaranteed, and it ensures interaction between players (even during long chains). I did mean fast-paced combos, like a mix of melee/fighting games, but also combos that are always escapable and depend on the decisions of both players, not just one. They would just be another expression of smash's depth.

To reiterate: DI is a really cool system that is, as far as I know, unique to Smash.

This is how I would implement DI to the Smash-style fighter:

SDI (smash DI) and ASDI (automatic SDI) are types of DI typically useful against moves that hit more than once. SDI lets you move around by inputting directions during the hitlag of a move. ASDI is similar, but you hold the direction before getting hit. (Hitlag are the frames when both characters are frozen, before any knockback takes effect, and SDI moves you a set distance during those frames.)

First, I would make moves cancellable during their hitlag, and make hitlag last a little bit longer. This way, smash could easily incorporate fighting-game-style revolver action without hindering normal smash-style combos, because hitlag doesn't really affect anything else.

Next, I would standardize SDI and ASDI--limit the number of inputs you can do for SDI to one, and make it interchangeable with ASDI (so they both take you the same distance, and there's no particular reason to use one over the other; SDI is just harder and stresses the limitations of human reaction time). During normal chains, the defending character could 'control' their trajectory even though there isn't any knockback. The goal would be to give the defending player some control over how long the combo lasts and where it takes them, but not necessarily force either player to guess. Hopefully if it was implemented well, the other player could use their mix-ups midcombo and compensate somewhat for DI. Normal, trajectory-changing DI would still take effect during knockback (i.e. for stronger moves like you said, launchers, or moves that aren't canceled).

tl;dr normal chains would be treated like multi-hit moves, and you could smash DI/ASDI around to some extent, but normal DI would still affect smash-style combos, aerial chains, or whatever.

Proration is basically damage scaling during combos (kind of like staled moves in smash, but it only lasts for as long as the combo is unbroken); the more consecutive hits you land on an opponent, the weaker your hits become, until eventually it doesn't combo anymore. In smash this could amount to staling moves really fast--if you cancel a move, the next move is significantly weaker, so it has less damage, less hitstun, and will make it easier for your opponent to escape. Proration would reset whenever your opponent gets out of hitstun, and wouldn't decrease if you avoid canceling moves.

This could be used as a really interesting way to balance the combo system. For example, you could tweak the proration on jabs -> tilt -> smash so that that chain would actually do the same amount of damage as landing the smash outright, rather than doing extra damage and sending the opponent further (more like hitconfirming a jab into a smash). Or if you try to waveshine someone with Fox, shine prorates every time you cancel it with a jump, so the next shine would have less stun, and it wouldn't be an infinite.


TL;DR--What makes Smash unique, in my opinion, is its freedom of movement, its percentage system (which replaces the stamina mode-type HP in most fighters), the existence of directional influence, and its shielding system. If you combined these elements of Smash with traditional fighter-style combos, what would you get? A really cool game.

Is anybody else hoping for this kind of game? Please share any ideas you have about traditional fighters and Smash, or how other elements of traditional fighters might be incorporated into the next game.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I've never given this kind of thing much thought, mostly due to the fact that I rarely play traditional fighters, but the ideas posted definitely sounds interesting and can take Smash Bros. in a new direction as far as fighting mechanics go, but without alienating its fanbase, so I definitely approve, especially with the way the stale move negation system proposed would work out, as it can lead to potentially great, creative, and fun combos.

 

[UltiMario]

Way to use rare and not even entirely correct forms of common fighting game terms. Revolver Action is literally used by 1 of like 45234652564356346 fighting communities. Everyone else just says chains, and chains is a much better universal term anyways since Smash already has them (some may know them as IASA). Also like way to use Proration even though that term, while not technically dead, has been replaced by "damage scaling" or just "scaling."

Also while I do realize SCV is a 3D fighter, Imma throw out there it has DI. It works basically just like Smash DI does. Hold a direction when knocked back, you fly moreso in that direction, to an extent. Other fighters with Air Teching is sort of like DI, too (ground teching is just teching lol).

I wouldn't honestly mind if there was a more traditional fighter smash, but not as something that would replace a main title. Smash needs a spin-off I guess?

 

[Kyu Puff]

chains is a much better universal term anyways since Smash already has them (some may know them as IASA)

What did you mean by this? IASA just means that you can interrupt the move before its animation is completely over. Chaining is fighters is like IASA, but only on contact, and only into other specific moves.

Sorry if I offended you with my outdated terminology.

I wouldn't honestly mind if there was a more traditional fighter smash, but not as something that would replace a main title. Smash needs a spin-off I guess?

Well, Sakurai said he wanted to take each game in a different direction. I think they could easily develop a game that looks and plays like a Smash game, but still incorporates some of the things I mentioned.

 

[Big-Cat]

Glad to see I'm not alone in this. I had a crazy assortment of ideas for this kind of thing. Some of these include but are not limited to:

• Various cancelings of attacks on hit into various actions such as running, jumping, specials, other normals, etc.
• Having two attack buttons to choose from. Maybe make it like Virtua Fighter where you have even more attacks to choose from for combos and other things.
• DI only on certain attacks. This encourages a reset game with combos. This would allow for combos to be escapable, but can be pulled back in with a proper read.
• Tech grabs and the inability to grab airborne enemies outside of command throws to kill off chain grabs for good.
• Include strings/chains for every one that depend on the character. Strings are like 3D fighters and Mortal Kombat games. You use these to rack up your damage and are not DI-able.
• Shields to cover only the front side of the character so as to have crossups (would probably lead to diversity).

 

[Osric]

I pretty much agree with everything in the OP, but I'll try to add a few things of a slightly different flavor.

I'm going to preface this by saying that my experience is really only with Soul Calibur (admittedly not a traditional fighter), but I still have a few ideas to throw out, especially since Bandai Namco is working on this game.

- Change shield mechanics so that shield-breaking is a viable strategy (especially for harder-hitting characters). Greatly reduce time spent stunned (free ftilt on reaction, not free fully charged smash of choice)
- Introduce special stances (and everything that comes with them).
- Add diagonal moves (e.g. not ftilt variants), at least for normal attacks.
- Remove spot-dodge and replace with the ability to crouch out of shield (grabs and high hitting moves would whiff but low hitting moves would still land). Increase the viability of crouching as a defensive option.
- Remove rolling and replace with "wave-dashing." No invincibility and continue to face in the same direction.
- Introduce unblockable attacks. (Falcon Punch of course)
- Add a meter?

As far as the meter goes, I would rather see it have to be used creatively throughout the game in different ways than to be used as some kind of "super move." The problem with "super moves" is that you just figure out a situation in which you can set it up and that's when you use it (e.g. hit confirm ftilt -> super move). I was thinking it would be cool to have the meter contribute in smaller, more varied ways. Here are a few really poorly thought out examples:

- Add an ice effect to Samus's missiles
- Let Link move back and forth while using grounded spin attack
- Increase the duration of a natural combo (e.g. Dancing Blade)
- Increase the range of a recovery move
- Refresh shield
- Add knockback to a move

I guess you could just hit the specific button (default left bumper, perhaps) at some point during the move or combo to initiate the effect. I didn't think this last part through very much, but here we are.

I didn't want to make a long post, but this seems pretty long anyway. My apologies. Hope something in there makes sense.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't see how Soul Calibur ISN'T a traditional fighter, but I'll pick at your post.

- Change shield mechanics so that shield-breaking is a viable strategy (especially for harder-hitting characters). Greatly reduce time spent stunned (free ftilt on reaction, not free fully charged smash of choice)
Sure.
- Introduce special stances (and everything that comes with them).
This should be something that is available to certain characters and it makes sense. These stances can include weapon switching as well such as Zamus switching between plasma whip and stun gun.
- Add diagonal moves (e.g. not ftilt variants), at least for normal attacks.
I'm good with this.
- Remove spot-dodge and replace with the ability to crouch out of shield (grabs and high hitting moves would whiff but low hitting moves would still land). Increase the viability of crouching as a defensive option.
So you mean a high-low game? I can see something like that, but it would have to be based more on hitbox positioning than a traditional fighter's high-low property since the sizes of our characters are so much more varied.
- Remove rolling and replace with "wave-dashing." No invincibility and continue to face in the same direction.I think it should be where the hitbox is greatly lowered for the wavedasher.
- Introduce unblockable attacks. (Falcon Punch of course)
IDK because this has the potential to be really good, or useless. Maybe it would make more sense for these moves to have very small hitstun.
- Add a meter?
Sure.

- Add an ice effect to Samus's missiles
- Let Link move back and forth while using grounded spin attack
- Increase the duration of a natural combo (e.g. Dancing Blade)
- Increase the range of a recovery move
- Refresh shield
Maybe something like Marvel's advancing guard instead?
- Add knockback to a move

All these but the second to last one are examples of EX moves in other fighting games. Maybe what could be done is to have a 5 meter system and EX moves and supers both have the same cost like in KOF XIII.

 

[Osric]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't think most people considered SC a traditional fighter due to 8 way run and ring-outs, but whatever.

I was initially going to say that a low/mid/high system would be cool, but, as you pointed out, I realized it would be impossible for Bowser to duck under a MK high move. I mostly just want to get rid of these catch-all invincibility options. In Brawl, it's on the aggressor to try and guess which defensive option is going to be used instead of the other way around. I think that's a big reason why Brawl can be so frustrating to play. We don't really need defensive mix-ups that catch multiple offensive options, we need offensive mix-ups that catch multiple defensive options.

I'm totally cool with everything else you said/added. I really don't care about unblockable attacks, but I think it could add a useful gimmick to historically useless moves. I mean, think about Ganon's utilt. Do people really need to be able to block that? If you could cancel it during the start up, you could possibly catch someone overreacting to it, instead of, well, just being useless.

 

[Big-Cat]

Alternatively, that move could be replaced along with the vast majority of his moves save for the flame choke.

And ring outs are not exclusive to Smash and SC. Virtua Fighter is one of, if not the, first fighting games to have ring outs as a KO option.

For blocking, cross ups are more suited for Smash than high-low.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think I have ever heard chain combos referred to as "revolver action." The first thing I thought of was Noel's air 236C.

I've been suggesting an overhaul to the shielding and dodging mechanic for quite some time. Reduce shield drop speed, increase shield stun, decrease natural shield degeneration, and regeneration decrease overall shield damage, make shield stun be a variable controlled on a per-move basis, decrease shield size by a small amount compared to Bawrl, increase the degree to which shields can be angled, increase shield DI potency to accompany the higher shield stun, have rolls, and jumps, and sdiesteps be done by smashing the stick, instead of whatever sensitivity it is at right now, and make dodges sub-optimal defensive options that have frame 1 or 2 invincibility - I believe most have frame 2 and some have frame 3, invincibility in Bawrl - but larger cool downs, making them ideal for dodging precisely, but not the best choice for dodging every possible move.

Meter is a silly if not outrageous addition.

 

[Lechteron]

I don't know if a meter is necessarily silly or outrageous. I had a thought the other day about final smashes that I think could be interesting. First off they should be toned down to some degree. The meat of the idea though is crowd interaction. From the beginning there's always been a crowd cheering us on and gasping at close comebacks so why not make that an actual mechanic? Have a meter for every fighter and as they please the crowd with close comebacks and KOs and taunts (But just a little bit for taunts) the crowd momentum meter fills and when it's full and you taunt the smash ball will appear at the end in front of your character. This gives the character who won the crowd's support first dibs on the smash ball but still allows an opponent to steal his thunder and stage an epic comeback of sorts.

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

Combo will make SSB4 terrible....what make most of the players like Smash is how simple the controls are...and the fact a guy with intermediate level have a chance to win against a guy with a high skill level if he used his mind...the game is fine what we need is additional attacks.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't know if a meter is necessarily silly or outrageous. I had a thought the other day about final smashes that I think could be interesting. First off they should be toned down to some degree. The meat of the idea though is crowd interaction. From the beginning there's always been a crowd cheering us on and gasping at close comebacks so why not make that an actual mechanic? Have a meter for every fighter and as they please the crowd with close comebacks and KOs and taunts (But just a little bit for taunts) the crowd momentum meter fills and when it's full and you taunt the smash ball will appear at the end in front of your character. This gives the character who won the crowd's support first dibs on the smash ball but still allows an opponent to steal his thunder and stage an epic comeback of sorts.

No comeback mechanics. That's not to say a meter is one, but nothing like Ultra Combos or X-Factor should show up in this game.

@Ike
What is the correlation between simplistic controls and combos? If you want to toss out skill, then use items and crazy stages. Skill level is measured more than in how many combos you can do.

 

[Osric]

Have you guys played Project M? Lucario basically has a meter mechanic in that game and it certainly isn't silly or outrageous. I guess you could say the same about Wario's Waft, although it's only time based.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think I would probably have to kill myself if everyone in PM played like Lucario.

 

[Zzuxon]

Changing smash's gameplay is a sure way to alienate the fan-base.

 

[Big-Cat]

Changing smash's gameplay is a sure way to alienate the fan-base.

Stagnating is just as bad.

 

[Octorox]

I like the idea of different tiers of final smashes based on building up meter (justified as a "crowd pleasing" mechanic), although I think it should be a feature you can turn on or off. Im not sure about traditional combos, Id like a more aggressive, combo oriented type of play but that can be fostered just by increasing hitstun, lowering lag on moves and lessening the effectiveness of defensive options (e.g. melee, but you could go even further with it)

P:M Lucario is fun as a unique character but I don't want all smash characters to flow like that, I like Smash's style of flow and combos.

 

[Osric]

I like the idea of different tiers of final smashes based on building up meter (justified as a "crowd pleasing" mechanic), although I think it should be a feature you can turn on or off. Im not sure about traditional combos, Id like a more aggressive, combo oriented type of play but that can be fostered just by increasing hitstun, lowering lag on moves and lessening the effectiveness of defensive options (e.g. melee, but you could go even further with it)

P:M Lucario is fun as a unique character but I don't want all smash characters to flow like that, I like Smash's style of flow and combos.

I think what you're saying in terms of hitstun, faster gameplay, and less effective defensive options is basically what most people want.

Just to clarify my position, I'm not saying that Smash should BECOME a traditional fighter or anything that isn't definitively Smash, just that it could learn a few things in terms of what makes a fighting game enjoyable and deep. Also, meter is one of the things that I'm definitely on the fence about, but I would want it to create MORE unique options, not make everyone play like P:M Lucario (never meant to give that impression)

 

[Big-Cat]

I like the idea of different tiers of final smashes based on building up meter (justified as a "crowd pleasing" mechanic), although I think it should be a feature you can turn on or off. Im not sure about traditional combos, Id like a more aggressive, combo oriented type of play but that can be fostered just by increasing hitstun, lowering lag on moves and lessening the effectiveness of defensive options (e.g. melee, but you could go even further with it)

P:M Lucario is fun as a unique character but I don't want all smash characters to flow like that, I like Smash's style of flow and combos.

Personally, I'd like to see P:M Lucario applied to everyone in different degrees. The aura on all his moves, though, does make it look messy as hell. For a more combo oriented game, I think reducing the knockback on moves would help a lot.

Anyway, I'm not sure how a "crowd pleasing" mechanic will work from a programming level. To me, I think it's best to keep it simple like other fighters. No fancy methods of meter building.

 

[Lechteron]

Wouldn't necessarily be "fancy" you get a little bit when you make a close comback, a little bit when you get a KO, a little bit when you get a KO streak, and some when you taunt. Simple, intuitive, and easy.

 

[lordvaati]

- Introduce special stances (and everything that comes with them).

I actually feel this would be a neat idea as well. I know Kuma had ideas of a Maru mari form for samus.I actually came up with a stance-like Idea for Mario myself. I mean other characters could expand to new forms. Meta knight could have something change when his Mask breaks, Peach could have a move that triggers her Vibe abilities, Pit can switch between his various weapons from uprising, etc. sadly i think the only things we have even close to that right now are Zelda/Sheik and Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Big-Cat]

And the sad thing is that those already in Smash are horribly executed.

 

[TL?]

This has to be trolling. "SSB4 should be a Smash-style Fighter". I would think that goes without saying. It's almost like saying "SSB4 should be playable" or "The next Mario Kart should be a Mario Kart-style Racing Game".

After reading the OP, it seems you meant to say, "SSB4 should be a Capcom-style fighter". Every suggestion you made could be summarized as, "Make SSB4 more like SF4 or MVC3". I couldn't disagree more. We like Smash because it is/was original and innovative. I like the way jabs, tilts, and smashes work. There is no need for capcom style chains. There is no need for hitstun scaling either since we already have dynamic hitstun, knockback, and trajectory. You're basically calling to replace the various innovations that make smash what it is. It makes no sense to want to move towards static combos in smash because that's more traditional. Dynamic combos due to DI, the % system, and character weights/sizes/gravity results in essentially 2 player combos which is more interesting than a 2 player game broken up by lengthy player vs controller sequences.

So, no Smash should not be made more like traditional fighters. What is to be gained? The approval of those elitist snobs over at SRK? Give me a break. Smash needs to keep its inovations, because that is what makes this series good. Sakurai just needs to not be an idiot(asking a lot, I know) and actually do some balancing. If they actually balanced/fixed the various problems like: Inconsistent grab release frames, low hitstun, laggy ledges, stiff movement, high landing lag, no nontumble DI, stale moves effecting knockback, ledges being too safe, sheilding being too good, footstools existing, jab locks, lack of dash cancel, and last but not least, TRIPPING, the new smash would be great.

 

[Kyu Puff]

- Remove spot-dodge and replace with the ability to crouch out of shield (grabs and high hitting moves would whiff but low hitting moves would still land). Increase the viability of crouching as a defensive option.

I really like this idea. Crouching was a viable defensive option in melee, but probably not for the reason you meant (it reduces hitstun as long as you aren't knocked over). Kirby/Jigglypuff's crouches allow you to duck under moves with higher hitboxes (like grab), and I think being able to crouch like that out of shield would make for a cool variation on the high/lox mix-up (since your other option out of shield is jumping)

After reading the OP, it seems you meant to say, "SSB4 should be a Capcom-style fighter". Every suggestion you made could be summarized as, "Make SSB4 more like SF4 or MVC3". I couldn't disagree more. We like Smash because it is/was original and innovative.

No, actually, I meant what I said. I clearly stated multiple times that I think Smash could incorporate some mechanics of traditional fighting games while still retaining its uniqueness. I listed several Smash "innovations" that I wouldn't touch--the freedom of movement, DI, the percentage system, etc.

It's possible to play with certain aspects of the game without changing it beyond recognition. Just try comparing Melee and Brawl. They are nothing alike, but anyone could still easily identify either of them as Smash games. As long as a few key elements are retained, the next game will still be Smash, no matter how different it feels.

As for "alienating the fanbase" (response to Zzuxon), you obviously were not a part of the Smash community when Brawl came out. A lot of competitive players were looking forward to Melee 2.0. Even though the new game was a huge disappointment for most of us, there was a huge influx of new members, and there were more people playing Smash than ever--because to the casual consumer, Smash is Smash.

It makes no sense to want to move towards static combos in smash because that's more traditional. Dynamic combos due to DI, the % system, and character weights/sizes/gravity results in essentially 2 player combos which is more interesting than a 2 player game broken up by lengthy player vs controller sequences.

You clearly didn't read the original post very well. I outlined a system that would integrate "traditional" combos with "dynamic" combos, and allow for interaction between players even during traditional fighter-style chains (see the paragraph on DI). I never said anything about removing DI, changing the % system, or making every character weigh the same. I explicitly listed those things as some of my favorite aspects of Smash.

 

[AttackParty]

I think this idea is bad, but just for smash brothers games. Mainly my reason is that in smash the part about it that makes it so fun is that you never know what attacks can connect after another and since there's no "fixed combos" the game doesn't get boring because it allows players to be unique and get creative. To give smash set combos would be to lower the replay value.

 

[AttackParty]

The only positive thing I can even say about SSB4 is that I don't think they can **** the gameplay up any worse. I've already given up hope a long time ago so it would really surprise me if they brought back wavedashing and speed.

 

[SmashChu]

Have we forgotten already

Sakurai: When you hear fighting games, you can't help but to think of having to execute fancy combos.
Iwata: Fighting games had developed in a way that the person who can pull off combos the best gets stronger and stronger.
Sakurai: But I do like the organic, ad lib nature that happens distinctively in fighting games, rather than learning specific ways to get stronger.
Iwata: As a player, however, aren't you really good at unleashing combos? You seem to have been very good at it.
Sakurai: Oh no, I can only do easy ones. If I looked good to you, that was because I was winning at reading my opponent.
Iwata: Oh, I see.
Sakurai: Recently, I played a new fighting game that had a combo practice mode, but no matter how much I practiced, I could only do about 5 of the 16 available. Really, I was like, "I can't play today's fighters!" I'm also not as young as I use to be.
Iwata: (laughs)
Sakurai: But I had sensed that for a long time, so instead of asking players to pull off specific combos that require instant elaborate manipulation, I wondered how I could bring out an element of ad lib.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Maybe they could just make some more character improvemets that taylor to their franchises.

Like how Bowser had an air grab in Melee. Or how Pit had a controllable arrow. And Peach was able to float.

For example: If you have a full charge shot with Samus and use your down B it would just scatter a bunch of damaging little bombs just like in Super Metroid.

Or for the Newer Zelda fans. If link pulls out a bomb he should be able to put it down. you can input downb again to put it down or smash down B to roll it like in Skyward sword. Rolling a bomb off edge could be an effective little edge gaurd or it can backfire.

Or Ike can have critical hits on some B moves. Peach has bombs, Luigi has Miss fire and G&W has 9 so it fits. Once in a while his Aether would be his critical and would do the second hit. Side B on the ground could be Blade Beam

Fox could possibly get laser upgrades after each kill. depending on the direction you killed the enemy it will descend from there and float around similar to that of a smash ball. it could be a minor upgrade like changed color and slightly improved damage. if he dies or gets hit hard enough it turns into his default laser, if the opponent gets it nothing happens. Ideally you would want to KO from the side since if you get a vertical KO the opponent can get it. Since Fox is strong a vertical KO's the game would reward him for killing in the opposing manner. I dunno this idea sounds kinda stupid but its not that hard to see.

Nintendo characters are unique in their own way. I would be nice to see some more of that.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think this idea is bad, but just for smash brothers games. Mainly my reason is that in smash the part about it that makes it so fun is that you never know what attacks can connect after another and since there's no "fixed combos" the game doesn't get boring because it allows players to be unique and get creative. To give smash set combos would be to lower the replay value.

Set combos, I assume you're talking about strings, do not lower the replay value inherently. 3D fighters have had these for years and are still going strong.

In Virtua Fighter, most of your strings can be interrupted at some point in them. For example, Eileen's PPPX string lets her combo the first three Ps on a standing opponent. However, none of her followups allow her to completely combo into them. You can be hit out of the followup if frame data allows it. It can be guarded high or low. It can be sidestepped to the front or the back. The only time these can be combo'd into is if you're juggling the opponent. This kind of thing can be implemented into Smash in the form of DI. If you do combos like this, it's very much like Smash except matches finish quicker. So rather of using 2D combo engine properties, taking a page out of 3D fighters might be the better choice for a game like Smash. Good thing the Tekken team's involved.

Now that I think about it, what if certain moves/string moves had the ability to stop spot dodges/rolls?

Maybe they could just make some more character improvemets that taylor to their franchises.

I wouldn't mind this as I feel some of the characters are not reaching the peak of their potential.

For example: If you have a full charge shot with Samus and use your down B it would just scatter a bunch of damaging little bombs just like in Super Metroid.
A morph ball mode is fine too, but I would love for these types of attacks to show up from the Metroid games. Make her more familiar for Metroid veterans like me.

Or for the Newer Zelda fans. If link pulls out a bomb he should be able to put it down. you can input downb again to put it down or smash down B to roll it like in Skyward sword. Rolling a bomb off edge could be an effective little edge gaurd or it can backfire.
I was thinking a Downforward A (3A) input might be more intuitive as you already toss bombs with A.

Or Ike can have critical hits on some B moves. Peach has bombs, Luigi has Miss fire and G&W has 9 so it fits. Once in a while his Aether would be his critical and would do the second hit. Side B on the ground could be Blade Beam
I'm not a fan of random outcome moves. That seems like something you'd do for EX specials.

Fox could possibly get laser upgrades after each kill. depending on the direction you killed the enemy it will descend from there and float around similar to that of a smash ball. it could be a minor upgrade like changed color and slightly improved damage. if he dies or gets hit hard enough it turns into his default laser, if the opponent gets it nothing happens. Ideally you would want to KO from the side since if you get a vertical KO the opponent can get it. Since Fox is strong a vertical KO's the game would reward him for killing in the opposing manner. I dunno this idea sounds kinda stupid but its not that hard to see.
This would either end up really good (Wesker) or really bad (Hakan). I think there are other aspects of Starfox to draw inspiration from for something special for Fox. I already have some things for Falco in mind.

Nintendo characters are unique in their own way. I would be nice to see some more of that.
Yeah, some extra things to make them more diverse and for fans to feel more at home would be great. Peach's float is definitely a genius example of this as it has also become a defining aspect of her playstyle.

I think a nice thing for Bowser aside from Super Armor like in Project M would be to give his Down B shockwaves like in Mario 64.

 

[Pazzo.]

I like my Smash juuuussssstttt the way it is.

 

[mimgrim]

Revolver Action is a combo system used in many fighting games that allows players to chain weak moves into stronger moves. In Smash terms, this means you might be able to cancel jabs into tilts into smashes (but not the other way around). In my opinion, this type of combo system would make the game more fun and fast-paced, for beginners and competitive players alike.

I wouldn't mind this being on, say, a single character, ala PM Lucario. Little Mac, for an example, could do good with something like this possibly. However, I wouldn't want to see this on every character.

Part of what makes Smash, well, Smash is that combos are player dependent on both sides. This would end up lessening that severely if every character had it.

To reiterate: DI is a really cool system that is, as far as I know, unique to Smash.

This is how I would implement DI to the Smash-style fighter:



Proration is basically damage scaling during combos (kind of like staled moves in smash, but it only lasts for as long as the combo is unbroken); the more consecutive hits you land on an opponent, the weaker your hits become, until eventually it doesn't combo anymore. In smash this could amount to staling moves really fast--if you cancel a move, the next move is significantly weaker, so it has less damage, less hitstun, and will make it easier for your opponent to escape. Proration would reset whenever your opponent gets out of hitstun, and wouldn't decrease if you avoid canceling moves.

This could be used as a really interesting way to balance the combo system. For example, you could tweak the proration on jabs -> tilt -> smash so that that chain would actually do the same amount of damage as landing the smash outright, rather than doing extra damage and sending the opponent further (more like hitconfirming a jab into a smash). Or if you try to waveshine someone with Fox, shine prorates every time you cancel it with a jump, so the next shine would have less stun, and it wouldn't be an infinite.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. DI, in all its forms, should stay as it is. There is nothing wrong with it.

TL;DR--What makes Smash unique, in my opinion, is its freedom of movement, its percentage system (which replaces the stamina mode-type HP in most fighters), the existence of directional influence, and its shielding system. If you combined these elements of Smash with traditional fighter-style combos, what would you get? A really cool game.

Is anybody else hoping for this kind of game? Please share any ideas you have about traditional fighters and Smash, or how other elements of traditional fighters might be incorporated into the next game.

Part of what I like about Smash is that it isn't in the traditional fighter style. So no. I wouldn't hope for it.

Various cancelings of attacks on hit into various actions such as running, jumping, specials, other normals, etc.

Please only on one character. And only be able to cancel into other attacks, Specials included in this into a magic series, like PM Lucario again.

Having two attack buttons to choose from. Maybe make it like Virtua Fighter where you have even more attacks to choose from for combos and other things.

It's called the special buton. Unless you mean to differentiate tilts and Smashes, then I could get behind that. That could even possibly lead into a Neutral Smash to be created.

DI only on certain attacks. This encourages a reset game with combos. This would allow for combos to be escapable, but can be pulled back in with a proper read.

No. Please no. DI should be allowed on every move.

Tech grabs and the inability to grab airborne enemies outside of command throws to kill off chain grabs for good.

I could support that.

Include strings/chains for every one that depend on the character. Strings are like 3D fighters and Mortal Kombat games. You use these to rack up your damage and are not DI-able.

Eh. No, please.

Shields to cover only the front side of the character so as to have crossups (would probably lead to diversity).

Maybe. But I kinda like the way shields are now. I would rather see OoS options get expanded on instead, by making it to where jumping, or methods using the jump button(Usmash out of shield), isn't the only way to do OoS stuff.

- Change shield mechanics so that shield-breaking is a viable strategy (especially for harder-hitting characters). Greatly reduce time spent stunned (free ftilt on reaction, not free fully charged smash of choice)

I'm iffy on this one.

- Introduce special stances (and everything that comes with them).

I like this.

- Add diagonal moves (e.g. not ftilt variants), at least for normal attacks.

Maybe. I prefer what Sakurai has done with Little Mac's Fsmash though. I think character should be able to influence their moves more by doing stuff like that instead.

- Remove spot-dodge and replace with the ability to crouch out of shield (grabs and high hitting moves would whiff but low hitting moves would still land). Increase the viability of crouching as a defensive option.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

- Remove rolling and replace with "wave-dashing." No invincibility and continue to face in the same direction.

I'm fine with this. Let's add an air dash as well.

- Introduce unblockable attacks. (Falcon Punch of course)

Maybe

- Add a meter?

Could work.

Maybe they could just make some more character improvemets that taylor to their franchises.

Like how Bowser had an air grab in Melee. Or how Pit had a controllable arrow. And Peach was able to float.

For example: If you have a full charge shot with Samus and use your down B it would just scatter a bunch of damaging little bombs just like in Super Metroid.

Or for the Newer Zelda fans. If link pulls out a bomb he should be able to put it down. you can input downb again to put it down or smash down B to roll it like in Skyward sword. Rolling a bomb off edge could be an effective little edge gaurd or it can backfire.

Or Ike can have critical hits on some B moves. Peach has bombs, Luigi has Miss fire and G&W has 9 so it fits. Once in a while his Aether would be his critical and would do the second hit. Side B on the ground could be Blade Beam

Fox could possibly get laser upgrades after each kill. depending on the direction you killed the enemy it will descend from there and float around similar to that of a smash ball. it could be a minor upgrade like changed color and slightly improved damage. if he dies or gets hit hard enough it turns into his default laser, if the opponent gets it nothing happens. Ideally you would want to KO from the side since if you get a vertical KO the opponent can get it. Since Fox is strong a vertical KO's the game would reward him for killing in the opposing manner. I dunno this idea sounds kinda stupid but its not that hard to see.

Nintendo characters are unique in their own way. I would be nice to see some more of that.

I like all of this. Or at least the general idea behind it. It would definitely make the character more lively and have more oomph to them.


EDIT - Dammit Mask. I didn't realize this was a thread you bumped from 2012 till after I posted. >___________>

 

[Kyu Puff]

I wouldn't mind this being on, say, a single character, ala PM Lucario. Little Mac, for an example, could do good with something like this possibly. However, I wouldn't want to see this on every character.

Part of what makes Smash, well, Smash is that combos are player dependent on both sides. This would end up lessening that severely if every character had it.





If it ain't broke, don't fix it. DI, in all its forms, should stay as it is. There is nothing wrong with it.

There is nothing wrong with DI. The changes to DI that I was suggesting would go hand in hand with the new combat system. You said it yourself: "Part of what makes Smash, well, Smash is that combos are player dependent on both sides." My entire point was that Smash could use a traditional fighter-like canceling system in conjunction with DI to make combos more interactive; smash DI would allow the defending player to control their trajectory even when being immobilized by a "traditional" combo sequence. Read the OP more carefully.