SSB4 Mechanics and Physics

[Renji64]

Fixed~

It literally cannot be proven the Brawl is a step down from Melee as the whole thing is highly subjective. There are going to be those who feel it is a step down and other who feel it is a step up. But in the end all of that opinion based.

Is sakurai saying the game was targeted towards casuals and melee was towards hardcore not enough for you? lol

 

[ImaClubYou]

Don't get to riled up in an argument. You might lose sight of things.

I'd say that Melee is a harder game to play because you have to move your hands much more quickly. Brawl and Melee have similar competitive mechanics but Melee has everything that Brawl has and then some. Though Brawl can one-up Melee with the camping. Even old school Hungrybox is more aggressive than any large scale Brawl GF in the history of forever.

OT: I noticed characters are sent flying at low and arching angles. Looks like the game will have guaranteed combos, though that's speculation. If that's so I'm predicting the game will have a large emphasis on punish comboing.

 

[mimgrim]

Mimgrim, it isn't an opinion that Melee requires more skill to play, technical or otherwise. There's more to learn, there's more options and relevant depth, there's more viable playstyles, and its more technically demanding. From a intellectual and technical standpoint, any aspect as a player that makes you good at Smash you require more of in every form while playing Melee in order to succeed.

The idea that Sakurai purposely designed it this way and you would deny it is disappointing.

I never said Melee wasn't more technically demanding. Something being skillful or not wethere it was desgined to or not is totally up to opinion, there are things you need to learn, you need to be able to read your opponent, and play minds games. Something being more skillful is totally subjective and you can't prove it one way or another. You could claim that Melee is more skillful because it is more technical but then I could end up claiming that being technical isn't really skillful as it is just being able to push buttons really fast and could totally hinder someone who is unable to push those buttons fast enough. All hypothetical ofc. You could even argue that Sakurai intended to not be as skillful, which is true he did intend it that way, but that doesn't take away from the fact a less skilled player will still lose to a more skilled player and that there are mechanics you need to learn in Brawl (intentional or not). There is literally no way you can prove one is more skillful then the other.

Is sakurai saying the game was targeted towards casuals and melee was towards hardcore not enough for you? lol

And you point is?????? The whole thing is still highly subjective to people. Just because X game wasn't catered to Y crowd doesn;t mean the game is bad or a step down.

 

[Ulevo]

Being technical isn't really skillful? That's your hypothetical retort?

There's a certain train of logic things tend to follow in conversation, and you're just not following any of it. You're covered by this protected guise that everyone's opinion can't be factual therefore you or your supported "opinion" are never wrong. And that's incorrect. But you're not going to accept the truth so I'm just going to drop it.

 

[S2rulL]

I just hope it's a sort of Project M style of game, like the Melee mechanics with the new and improved graphics provided by the Wii U. But, if we get ****ty graphics and Brawl style of gameplay, then we're all ****ed. I just hope there isn't one character who completely dominates the rest of the cast.

 

[Vkrm]

Melee elitists are annoying as hell

He's a noob

jruzzin
Member Since:
Yesterday
Message Count:
7

Am I being trolled?

 

[BSP]

I actually dont really like the cutting through air visuals on the attacks...but its ok..cant really see if you have hit the guy etc...

I'm worried about this too. I hope the arcs on moves are their actual hitboxes.

 

[mimgrim]

Being technical isn't really skillful? That's your hypothetical retort?

There's a certain train of logic things tend to follow in conversation, and you're just not following any of it. You're covered by this protected guise that everyone's opinion can't be factual therefore you or your supported "opinion" are never wrong. And that's incorrect. But you're not going to accept the truth so I'm just going to drop it.

Opinions can be factual, when they are proven. From what I have seen though none of the opinions have been proven yet. Prove that X is fact, from what I have seen you haven't proved anything. Use facts to prove your opinion not more opinions. You see I'm not saying one game is more skilled then the other, I'm saying it can't be proven that that is the case. So yes I believe opinions can be factual if they can be proven with facts. The only real fact you used is that Melee is more technical, but that isn't enough. And thanks for assuming I believe X thing and making an ass out of you an me, I believe opinions are right and wrong at the exact same time because to one person it is right and to another it is wrong, they key is being able to prove opinion to be fact.

 

[Renji64]

I never said Melee wasn't more technically demanding. Something being skillful or not wethere it was desgined to or not is totally up to opinion, there are things you need to learn, you need to be able to read your opponent, and play minds games. Something being more skillful is totally subjective and you can't prove it one way or another. You could claim that Melee is more skillful because it is more technical but then I could end up claiming that being technical isn't really skillful as it is just being able to push buttons really fast and could totally hinder someone who is unable to push those buttons fast enough. All hypothetical ofc. You could even argue that Sakurai intended to not be as skillful, which is true he did intend it that way, but that doesn't take away from the fact a less skilled player will still lose to a more skilled player and that there are mechanics you need to learn in Brawl (intentional or not). There is literally no way you can prove one is more skillful then the other.



And you point is?????? The whole thing is still highly subjective to people. Just because X game wasn't catered to Y crowd doesn;t mean the game is bad or a step down.

Yeah it is step down when n64 to melee was a improvement. Then you have brawl which removes the best elements from both older entries to make a hollow slow bland smash brothers for casuals to enjoy and the other people just gotta either play or go back lol. If brawl was amazing it wouldn't had caused a spilt.

 

[Ulevo]

Opinions can be factual, when they are proven. From what I have seen though none of the opinions have been proven yet. Prove that X is fact, from what I have seen you haven't proved anything. Use facts to prove your opinion not more opinions. You see I'm not saying one game is more skilled then the other, I'm saying it can't be proven that that is the case. So yes I believe opinions can be factual if they can be proven with facts. The only real fact you used is that Melee is more technical, but that isn't enough. And thanks for assuming I believe X thing and making an *** out of you an me, I believe opinions are right and wrong at the exact same time because to one person it is right and to another it is wrong, they key is being able to prove opinion to be fact.

In nearly every post I've made on the subject, I've provided evidence and examples that you simply refuse to address. In fact you tend to ignore the majority of my post in favor of just repeating yourself. An example of this is this post. You ignored nearly all of my examples in favor of ignorantly claiming that only two of them were in Brawl, yet one of them was not and one of them had no practical use. I didn't see you continue that conversation.

Telling me to use facts when you can't identify and properly address them when I do (which is often) doesn't amount to progress.

That's all I'm going to say on it.

 

[Priap0s]

This thread....

What is required for a mod to take away someones privelage of starting topics? Should consider OP.

 

[Xiloh]

...seriously tired of the bickering....is it possible that we can come together on these forums and look forward to whats coming, instead of constantly and arbitrarily demeaning one another? We can speculate and hope for the future....that's what makes this fun, but you guys make me want to stop even giving the slightest s**t about the topic whatsoever....over and over about Melee and Brawl...I'll be honest: I fell in love with Smash64 (Dangerous with every character), the only reason I got a GameCube was to keep up with the franchise, Melee (Mained Marth and Falco before tiers and all that jazz) for me was a pivotal revolution. Skills overwhelmed everything else and it became memorable but because of constant WIN.... I then welcomed the feel of brawl BECAUSE it wasn't like Melee...you learn to play in a completely different way with each iteration honing your skills specifically with each character....or atleast you should, I did and am a hardcore Smash Vet, only recently joined this forum to show my appreciation....but I'm learning very quickly that most of you are not the 'Atmosphere of Smash' loving folks like I assumed

 

[mimgrim]

Yeah it is step down when n64 to melee was a improvement. Then you have brawl which removes the best elements from both older entries to make a hollow slow bland smash brothers for casuals to enjoy and the other people just gotta either play or go back lol. If brawl was amazing it wouldn't had caused a spilt.

All of that is highly subjective still. The best elements of Smash differ from person to person, meaning just because Brawl took out the elements you liked just means that for you Brawl isn't the better version. However it is not fact that Brawl is a worst version like you try to make it out to be. Melee and 64 are not worst version either or better versions either for fact. It all based on what people themselves find to better for them. Also the game it self didn't cause a split, don't game blaming the game when it is the community's fault for the split in the first place. Brawl didn't force the community to split, the community split of it's own will and wasn't forced. And the blame isn't soley on the Brawl community either, Melee community is just as much at fault as the Brawl community with both communitiues having very vocal people who bash the other game.

In nearly every post I've made on the subject, I've provided evidence and examples that you simply refuse to address. In fact you tend to ignore the majority of my post in favor of just repeating yourself. An example of this is this post. You ignored nearly all of my examples in favor of ignorantly claiming that only two of them were in Brawl, yet one of them was not and one of them had no practical use. I didn't see you continue that conversation.

Telling me to use facts when you can't identify and properly address them when I do (which is often) doesn't amount to progress.

That's all I'm going to say on it.

I didn't reply back in that thread for 2 reasons, first I went to sleep that night meaning I wasn't on to reply then and when I woke up the thread was totally derailed it seemed pointless to even reply then. But those mechanics being removed doesn't mean Brawl is nesicarlily a worst version of Melee, espically when Brawl is it's own game. Allot of those mechanics are technical in nature and some people like the technical spects and others don't, just because a game is more technical then another game doesn't mean it is better then the other less technical game for fact, it means some people are going to think one game is better and other people are going to think the other game is better. Just because game X has X mechanic and game Y doesn't have X mechanic doesn't mean for fact that game X is better then game Y and depends from player to player, same for games being skillful cause people are going to find X game more skillful then Y game and other people will find Y game more skillful then X game. I admit you give really good examples why Melee players like Melee better and I understand why they like Melee better and why they think Melee is more skillful and that is great for them. What I am trying to get through to is that it cannot be proven the a game is better or more skillful then another for fact no matter how much you try because both terms are highly subjective. I'm not even trying to bash Melee here and if I somehow implied that in my posts then I am sorry I am just trying to show how certain things can't be proven due to highly subjective certain terms are (in this case better and skill).

 

[Renji64]

All of that is highly subjective still. The best elements of Smash differ from person to person, meaning just because Brawl took out the elements you liked just means that for you Brawl isn't the better version. However it is not fact that Brawl is a worst version like you try to make it out to be. Melee and 64 are not worst version either or better versions either for fact. It all based on what people themselves find to better for them. Also the game it self didn't cause a split, don't game blaming the game when it is the community's fault for the split in the first place. Brawl didn't force the community to split, the community split of it's own will and wasn't forced. And the blame isn't soley on the Brawl community either, Melee community is just as much at fault as the Brawl community with both communitiues having very vocal people who bash the other game.

Sakurai said brawl was towards casuals you can really tell lol it is the most slow pace campy smash brothers out of all installments. I understand people having their preferences but it is clear brawl was not the best entry or a step foward for the series. Sales wise yeah gameplay wise no. Sakurai said melee is the sharpest in the series and it was geared towards hardcore players which explains why it is still played so much considering it 's age people know which game has the most quality. If people enjoy a mediocre game like brawl have fun.

 

[mimgrim]

Sakurai said brawl was towards casuals you can really tell lol it is the most slow pace campy smash brothers out of all installments. I understand people having their preferences but it is clear brawl was not the best entry or a step foward for the series. Sales wise yeah gameplay wise no. Sakurai said melee is the sharpest in the series and it was geared towards hardcore players which explains why it is still played so much considering it 's age people know which game has the most quality. If people enjoy a mediocre game like brawl have fun.

It is clear that you like Melee the best. It is not clear that Brawl is the wost entery of Smash games factually. It cannot be proved that a game is just better then another game. Ok so you like Melee and think it is the best Smash game, good for you but stop trying to put it off as fact when it is just your opinion. I like Brawl and in my opinio I consider it the best Smash game but have I once tried to say for fact that it is the best Smahs game yet? No I have not as I know that it is jsut my opinion, just like how Melee being the best for you is your opinion. Just because a game was built with casualy in mnd and was mean for casual to be able to get into it easily does not mean a game is better or wose for fact.

 

[Renji64]

It is clear that you like Melee the best. It is not clear that Brawl is the wost entery of Smash games factually. It cannot be proved that a game is just better then another game. Ok so you like Melee and think it is the best Smash game, good for you but stop trying to put it off as fact when it is just your opinion. I like Brawl and in my opinio I consider it the best Smash game but have I once tried to say for fact that it is the best Smahs game yet? No I have not as I know that it is jsut my opinion, just like how Melee being the best for you is your opinion. Just because a game was built with casualy in mnd and was mean for casual to be able to get into it easily does not mean a game is better or wose for fact.

It isn't just mines lol it is sakurai's too i think i play the sharpest game in the series over the dullest game. People comparing brawl to chest the lulz. That is the fun of smash brothers it can be both played casually and hardcore. Brawl pretty took away the hardcore side.

 

[Pyra]

I came into this thread to see if I could have a civil discussion about the mechanics of the game but you guys are just fighting over versions as usual.
Don't know why I didn't expect asinine debates. Silly me.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I feel like SSB4's physics should lean more towards Melee's. Character momentum was superb in that game as well as the tight execution of attacks...and...well everything.

 

[Sashimi]

Average Melee fan: "I prefer Melee."
Average Brawl fan: "I prefer Brawl."

That one guy in every thread: "BRAWL SUCKS PLAY A REAL GAME!"

 

[Ulevo]

That's what happens when the opening post can't avoid leading in to comparative examples.

Here's something worth discussing that isn't Melee or Brawl oriented. http://smashboards.com/threads/swu-...l-attacks-that-clank-together-discuss.338809/

 

[Pyra]

It's one thing to compare the games, it's another to go all "Team Edward/Team Jacob" over them.

Yes, I compared most of you guys to annoying twilight fangirls.

 

[Priap0s]

It isn't just mines lol it is sakurai's too i think i play the sharpest game...

Just had to chime in to ask this: So Sakurai saying that melee is "sharper" makes it the best smash game of the series? That's just bs. It's my favourite game to, but stop mixing up your, mine, Sakurais or other individual peoples opinions with facts. That's not how facts work. Maybe what Sakurai considers "sharp" is what we (you & I) love. That doesn't mean every one does and that it is "the best game, fact!". It just means that we have similar taste to Sakurai (if he even implied that sharpest = best?).

Personally I don't even understand why people are arguing about this in every damn thread on smash boards WiiU. Who cares, we have our favourites like with everything in life. Pointless to try and push your opinion on others. I'm not gonna go tell a guy eating pizza to stop, throw it away and have a lassagna instead "because its much better, fact".



Now please just agree to disagree, hug, shake hands and promise to never derail another thread into this ramble ever again!

 

[Renji64]

Just had to chime in to ask this: So Sakurai saying that melee is "sharper" makes it the best smash game of the series? That's just bs. It's my favourite game to, but stop mixing up your, mine, Sakurais or other individual peoples opinions with facts. That's not how facts work. Maybe what Sakurai considers "sharp" is what we (you & I) love. That doesn't mean every one does and that it is "the best game, fact!". It just means that we have similar taste to Sakurai (if he even implied that sharpest = best?).

Personally I don't even understand why people are arguing about this in every thread damn thread on smash boards WiiU. Who cares, we have our favourites like with everything in life. Pointless to try and push your opinion on others. I'm not gonna go tell a guy eating pizza to stop, throw it away and have a lassagna instead "because its much better, fact".



Now please just agree to disagree, hug, shake hands and promise to never derail another thread into this ramble ever again!

Damage control

 

[nat pagle]

Oh my, what a surprise, a Brawl vs. Melee debate spurs yet again. Why not just make a mega-thread for these master debaters to have at it instead of taking residence in every thread that mentions both Melee and Brawl?

Anywho, I'm thinking Sakurai is going to make it less floaty than Brawl, but not quite as fast as Melee. Also, I'm positive he won't include Wavedashing or any other advanced tech.

 

[Snakeyes]

If only. We all know melee was better so why not go back to that?

Because there is very little evidence that catering to the desires of the most conservative Melee elitists would increase the game's sales. Smash 4 will be one of the Wii U's most popular titles regardless.

The only way for a small group of hardcore players to get thrown a bone is when the game's creators are aware, understanding and somewhat supportive of the competitive community. Sakurai hasn't shown that kind of attitude towards us just yet, and doesn't really have an incentive to either.

 

[jruzzin]

Because there is very little evidence that catering to the desires of the most conservative Melee elitists would increase the game's sales. Smash 4 will be one of the Wii U's most popular titles regardless.

The only way for a small group of hardcore players to get thrown a bone is when the game's creators are aware, understanding and somewhat supportive of the competitive community. Sakurai hasn't shown that kind of attitude towards us just yet, and doesn't really have an incentive to either.

Thanks for making this a post worth reading. Why are so many people on here such trolls? EVERYBODY wants to fight.

 

[Dark Phazon]

This is jokes....

 

[Renji64]

Because there is very little evidence that catering to the desires of the most conservative Melee elitists would increase the game's sales. Smash 4 will be one of the Wii U's most popular titles regardless.

The only way for a small group of hardcore players to get thrown a bone is when the game's creators are aware, understanding and somewhat supportive of the competitive community. Sakurai hasn't shown that kind of attitude towards us just yet, and doesn't really have an incentive to either.

I know some casuals who want a better game as well. It just sucks smash is gonna be dictated by the mindless items on casual majority. Instead of him making a great game like melee. It had so much progression from the n64 version. Brawl was such a step down gameplay wise.

 

[PlayerXIII]

I know some casuals who want a better game as well. It just sucks smash is gonna be dictated by the mindless items on casual majority. Instead of him making a great game like melee. It had so much progression from the n64 version. Brawl was such a step down gameplay wise.

It had no progression whatsoever from 64 and Brawl was not a step down for a simple reason: Smash Bros has no sequels. In a sequel, you build from the basis of the past game and improve on it. That doesn't happen in Smash Bros if you haven't noticed yet. Smash uses sucessors, games that may base themselves around the one that came before but rework things instead of attempting to add a few more things and improving them. This makes it so Smash 64 isn't Smash 1, Melee isn't Smash 2 and Brawl isn't Smash 3 but they are 64, Melee and Brawl - the only things in common are the game mechanics and the fact that they all use Nintendo All-Stars - aside from that they are completely different games. Comparing them is like comparing any other two games from the fighting genre that aren't sequels.

It's the same with the Sonic Franchise. Sonic Adventure isn't a sequel to other Sonic games before it: It's a sucessor. They reworked the formula in it and re-used it in Sonic Adventure 2 by only improving on it (making it a sequel). Then came Sonic Heroes and, although at one point it was to become Sonic Adventure 3, they reworked the formula again and thus it could no longer be a sequel to Sonic Adventure 2 mechanic-wise. (it still was a sequel story-wise, but that isn't the subject here) Comparing the first Sonic the Hedgehog to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes to Sonic Adventure 2 is just stupid aside from the fact that the base concept is the same: Running and jumping and defeating the bad guy.

 

[Pyra]

Anywho, I'm thinking Sakurai is going to make it less floaty than Brawl, but not quite as fast as Melee. Also, I'm positive he won't include Wavedashing or any other advanced tech.

Oh hey look, someone who isn't mindlessly debating. I think we should carry on the actual topic.

He might purposefully put in advanced techniques in an attempt to be in touch with people willing to get just that good at the game, and I wouldn't put it past him to actually make up some more just for this game. I'm quite interested to see what the physics of the final product is like so I can NOT compare it to the other games.

Personally, as long as it's not super floaty and as long as tripping stays out, then I'll be happy.

 

[Dark Phazon]

As long as it aint beach volley brawl again..like actually have combo's?

 

[peeup]

There's really no point in arguing Melee's physics vs Brawl's physics. It's not like someday a hardcore Brawl player is gonna read one of these threads and be like "Oh, wait, I've been wasting 90% of my free time on a ****ty game since 2008." Likewise, a hardcore Melee player isn't gonna see a pro-Brawl post and be like "****, they're right, I need to put this romanticized game down and pick up the newer, shinier version."

The issue that people really need to be considering is, given the mechanics and physics of Sm4sh, will Ridley be unplayable due to him being too big?

The answer is yes, Ridley will be unplayable due to him being too big.

Ridley is too big.

You can lock this thread now.

 

[Dark Phazon]

There's really no point in arguing Melee's physics vs Brawl's physics. It's not like someday a hardcore Brawl player is gonna read one of these threads and be like "Oh, wait, I've been wasting 90% of my free time on a ****ty game since 2008." Likewise, a hardcore Melee player isn't gonna see a pro-Brawl post and be like "****, they're right, I need to put this romanticized game down and pick up the newer, shinier version."

The issue that people really need to be considering is, given the mechanics and physics of Sm4sh, will Ridley be unplayable due to him being too big?

The answer is yes, Ridley will be unplayable due to him being too big.

Ridley is too big.

You can lock this thread now.

Lmfaoooo your a G RealTalk.
Not bad....not bad son.

 

[Ulevo]

It had no progression whatsoever from 64 and Brawl was not a step down for a simple reason: Smash Bros has no sequels. In a sequel, you build from the basis of the past game and improve on it. That doesn't happen in Smash Bros if you haven't noticed yet. Smash uses sucessors, games that may base themselves around the one that came before but rework things instead of attempting to add a few more things and improving them. This makes it so Smash 64 isn't Smash 1, Melee isn't Smash 2 and Brawl isn't Smash 3 but they are 64, Melee and Brawl - the only things in common are the game mechanics and the fact that they all use Nintendo All-Stars - aside from that they are completely different games. Comparing them is like comparing any other two games from the fighting genre that aren't sequels.

It's the same with the Sonic Franchise. Sonic Adventure isn't a sequel to other Sonic games before it: It's a sucessor. They reworked the formula in it and re-used it in Sonic Adventure 2 by only improving on it (making it a sequel). Then came Sonic Heroes and, although at one point it was to become Sonic Adventure 3, they reworked the formula again and thus it could no longer be a sequel to Sonic Adventure 2 mechanic-wise. (it still was a sequel story-wise, but that isn't the subject here) Comparing the first Sonic the Hedgehog to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes to Sonic Adventure 2 is just stupid aside from the fact that the base concept is the same: Running and jumping and defeating the bad guy.

Except by your definition, Melee is a sequel to Smash 64. And Brawl wasn't so much reworked as it was stripped naked. Very little was added in that was legitimately new. Crawling, footstooling, pivot grabs, new air dodge. Not much else.

 

[Pyra]

You can lock this thread now.

I agree.

 

[smashmachine]

Because there is very little evidence that catering to the desires of the most conservative Melee elitists would increase the game's sales. Smash 4 will be one of the Wii U's most popular titles regardless.

The only way for a small group of hardcore players to get thrown a bone is when the game's creators are aware, understanding and somewhat supportive of the competitive community. Sakurai hasn't shown that kind of attitude towards us just yet, and doesn't really have an incentive to either.

haha very funny, Smash 4 dies with the Wii U's failure (well the Wii U version, 3ds version will do fine)

 

[Commando]

Don't know if anyone saw this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVTXDTcqng

Somewhere in the vid, they start talking about the moments in the Mega Man trailer where Mario and Mega Man slide around each other, and when Mega Man slides around Samus. Could that be a new mechanic? Or is it just a dodge? I don't think Mario dodges like that in Brawl.

 

[Krynxe]

This thread has become predominantly melee vs brawl arguments and spam about how the thread has become about melee vs brawl arguments