Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 38 - Lucina - Ain't a "Taguel" or a "Laguz", Princess

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Lucina matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Lucina's Frame Data by @ Locuan and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

Note: As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|5-7, 20-22
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|13-16
Ftilt|6-8|8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|6-12 or 9-12
Dtilt|7-9|7-8
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|10-13
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|13-14 or 13-17
Down Smash|7-9|6-7 or 21-23
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-7, 15-21
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-11
Uair|7-11|5-9
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|9-13 or 11-11
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10

 

[Gamegenie222]

I play both characters as well and although my Lucina is hella rust it's kinda like the Marth MU outside of the tipper expect for Dair, just as unsafe as Marth non tippered and less range. I'll try to post something about later in the week.

 

[Ffamran]

The MU was discussed in the Lucina boards a while back, so if you need a refresher or just want to debunk or reexamine things, check here: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-match-up-discussion-update-kirby.373171/page-3#post-18148552. Some things have changed and some might not.

 

[Locuan]

and less range.

For the record, that distance is almost irrelevant in most situations.

3. Lucina is slightly shorter than Marth.
This means her reach on her attacks is slightly shorter in every way by a few pixels, this should not really matter 99% of the time. However, it is noticeable that her jab and forward smash will not hit people on Battlefield platforms very easily (or not at all) while Marth can.

Additionally, the match-up is actually quite interesting albeit one I'm not really knowledgeable in due to the lack of Falco players in my region.

Also @ Ffamran , there was a new Frame Data thread posted by Aerodrome. You should link to that one or use the data from there as it's updated with 1.06 data.
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucinas-frame-data.403227/

 

[Ffamran]

What? I thought Dantarion's data dump wasn't done yet... Unless this is Aero's own testing. One thing I remember is that Marth and Luci's jabs flow better or something.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I feel like this is relatively even if not 55/45 Lucina
As with most of Falco's bad matchups, speed is an issue. Marth/Lucina move much faster than Falco on the ground and in the air, and I think that lucina is a defensive character just like falco, except with more speed and range
Lasers are useful in a situation where the lucina is playing defensively, but it's going to be harder than normal to do damage, because much of our damage will come off of grabs, and a good lucina will be hard to grab. I'm more afraid of Marth than Lucina to be honest, I think Lucina will have a hard time killing Falco (but the same applies in reverse), she has no kill setups off of grabs, so her kills will come primarily off of punishes, reads etc. and they will generally be high percent kills. Falco will kill Lucina at earlier percents. Lucina kind of just wrecks Falco in neutral and can run circles around him. both characters can edgeguard each decently well, but I think falco has the advantage there.
when Lucina is in the air she has few options, Falco can easily force airdodges or punish unsafe landings. Lucina can kinda do the same to falco, but with falco's giant double jump it's a bit harder.

 

[Locuan]

What? I thought Dantarion's data dump wasn't done yet... Unless this is Aero's own testing. One thing I remember is that Marth and Luci's jabs flow better or something.

This is from Aero's own testing.

 

[Freelance Spy]

You guys got patched better than we did.

After playing a falco in my local scene, I have mixed feelings. There seems to be a range where you guys destroy us and a range we destroy you.

It's turned into a spacing battle.

I speak for Marth as well as Lucina here as the same things generally apply.

So let's get down to it. You guys now have combos on us, you also seem to be capable of escaping some of ours. We still beat you offstage, but now you probably beat us on.

Customs on we have a grab kill true combo with crescent slash on you. Also we get iai counter which will make any falco think twice about going offstage or throwing out too many mid ranged attacks. You guys don't get any game changing customs although some are upgrades anyway.

Customs on we win due to our extra comvos, a kill grab, and vastly better offstage game.

Off means it could probably go either way, but I'll say I'm super uncomfortable in the MU, so you guys probably have an advantage. +1 or even +2 depending on how your buffs change your meta.

Customs on its even or -1 for you.

 

[Liyrex]

I use both as well. Its kinda even matched. Unless customs are on then Lucina definatly has the upper hand.

 

[Ffamran]

Customs allow Falco to zip around more with another burst movement that's also a faster, but slightly shorter recovery move: Fast Fire Bird, another disjointed aerial kill move, juggle tool, and hilarious, slower poking tool: Reflector Void, and Blaster and Falco Phantasm customs are pretty much play style choices. Burst Blaster might not be a good idea since there's no hit stun and although there's less end lag, Falco can't exactly run away like Fox while default still lets him interrupt and potentially gimp if he clips you and you suffer hit stun which stops ledge grabs, and Explosive Blaster is more for edgeguarding and Gravity Grenade-esque setups. Falco Phantasm is the default, so whatever, while Falco Phase basically give Falco a longer roll and a safer recovery since he's entirely intangible for the move, so no more hitting him out of Phantasm, and then there's Falco Charge... Really don't know what you could do with this.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Customs allow Falco to zip around more with another burst movement that's also a faster, but slightly shorter recovery move: Fast Fire Bird, another disjointed aerial kill move, juggle tool, and hilarious, slower poking tool: Reflector Void, and Blaster and Falco Phantasm customs are pretty much play style choices. Burst Blaster might not be a good idea since there's no hit stun and although there's less end lag, Falco can't exactly run away like Fox while default still lets him interrupt and potentially gimp if he clips you and you suffer hit stun which stops ledge grabs, and Explosive Blaster is more for edgeguarding and Gravity Grenade-esque setups. Falco Phantasm is the default, so whatever, while Falco Phase basically give Falco a longer roll and a safer recovery since he's entirely intangible for the move, so no more hitting him out of Phantasm, and then there's Falco Charge... Really don't know what you could do with this.

Yes, but as far as this MU goes, you get no new tools that will sway the MU score in your favor. Falco kinda wins already without customs. Marcina's customs change the MU entirely.

Basically customs allow us to deal with some of your tools by giving us our own. We get added combos, kill grabs, and gimping tools on you. And iai counter.

From what I know of falco's customs it looks like you get some neat and useful options, but I cannot say they bring the level of momentum ours do.

 

[Ffamran]

It brings change and covers up some issues with Falco. The thing with Falco's customs is that unlike Fox, Marth, Lucina, Ganondorf, Ike, and the notorious DK, Falco only gets options and most of them are just play style choices. What Falco chooses basically shows what the player wants to focus on. That said, it's a better set of customs than some other characters who get options, but not options that impact their game plan in a meaningful way like Mario or Bowser. I'd actually like more of those customs alongside meaningful ones instead of here, have some stupid stuff and enjoy, Jigglypuff and Triple D.

I also never think Falco has an advantageous MU in this entire game and customs only give him options. At best, Falco goes even with most of the cast with some severe disadvantages like Rosalina and Palutena, and slight disadvantages against Zelda - yes, you heard me, right -, Shulk, and more. Still, going even with most of the cast is pretty good and it just means you have to outplay the opponent at all times which can be annoying as every match would be an uphill battle.

 

[Freelance Spy]

It brings change and covers up some issues with Falco. The thing with Falco's customs is that unlike Fox, Marth, Lucina, Ganondorf, Ike, and the notorious DK, Falco only gets options and most of them are just play style choices. What Falco chooses basically shows what the player wants to focus on. That said, it's a better set of customs than some other characters who get options, but not options that impact their game plan in a meaningful way like Mario or Bowser. I'd actually like more of those customs alongside meaningful ones instead of here, have some stupid stuff and enjoy, Jigglypuff and Triple D.

I also never think Falco has an advantageous MU in this entire game and customs only give him options. At best, Falco goes even with most of the cast with some severe disadvantages like Rosalina and Palutena, and slight disadvantages against Zelda - yes, you heard me, right -, Shulk, and more. Still, going even with most of the cast is pretty good and it just means you have to outplay the opponent at all times which can be annoying as every match would be an uphill battle.

As a Zelda main I'm not surprised. But as a Marth main. (I dual main). I'll garunteed you guys have advantage on us without customs. Also this is a Lucina thread so she has slightly worse disadvantage in this MU.

Basically we are in agreement about the customs. So that'll help the thread move along about customs.

 

[Attila_]

I haven't played against Lucina, but I have a fair amount of Marth experience, and feels he wins the MU soundly.

The main factor is ledge play. Marth (and presumably Lucina) edgeguard falco pretty effortlessly with fair, which cuts through illusion without precise timing. On the other hand, while falco normally edgeguards very well, he is unable to utilize these skills against an invincible UpB.

This removes a large advantage of falco, and gives it directly to marcina.

I strongly feel Marth wins the MU, and logically Lucina should be at an advantage also.

 

[Beach]

How should we go about beating Marth's/Lucina's Dancing Blade? I was getting spaced by it hard, got a few good reads but overall got shut down OoS and got edguarded by Fairs and counters for my Up-b.

 

[Ffamran]

Dancing Blade is transcendent if I remember correctly. Transcendent means it won't clank, so roll or shield. If it's projectile like Greninja's fully-charged Water Shuriken, reflecting it can work.

 

[Beach]

Yeah Transcendent moves are a pain, although I feel like I should mention in a main thread but I noticed he continued to wait on ledge without shielding and I ledge dropped Bair'd him and he died at the blastzone I was recovering from at like 90% possibly something we could do against people who get careless in their edge guarding.