SSB 64 Tier list Counters

[makemegood]

I was hoping to get some experienced opinions about who are good hard and soft counters to each character in SSB64.

Just so everyone knows, I am not looking for help counterpicking. I just want to see some opinions on what characters smashers think counter each other in SSB64.

 

[NixxxoN]

You should not care about it, learn to play against each character using each character, dont be a counterpick ***

 

[makemegood]

I couldn't agree more. I'm just interested to see what other smashers think about who is good against who.

 

[Superstar]

But, if you like two characters, you can use one when one is a bad matchup.

I may use Ness, but I go Mario when I have to fight Pikachu, for example. When I go vs Jiggs, I go Mario only as well.

At this point of time. My Mario > Ness, so for serious matches, I almost always use Mario more.

Anyways, it'd be best to discuss only one char. Each and every char is to vague a topic.

 

[Lawrencelot]

Kirby owns Falcon
Dreamland owns Link
Pikachu owns all

 

[NixxxoN]

I don't know may of them

Samus and Luigi own Jiggs
DK is owned by Luigi and Falcon
Mario owns Falcon and Ness
Link owns floaties on big stages

 

[Skrlx]

if you're good enough you wouldn't need to counterpick.

For example i would play DK and usually beat every char that my opponent picks.
I stick to one character until they get bothered lol.

Counterpicking character choosing people don't bother me.
But people who counterpick char and stage. that bugs me but i still beat 'em.

like DK vs Mario on the DK stage. throw + drill gimpfest. but i mastered the noob gimpfest avoidance techniques.

to answer your question.. work on being good with a char instead of counterpicking.

 

[Superstar]

Counterpicking really comes in handy when it comes to secondaries. I assume not everyone uses ONE character. Counterpicking helps a lot when it comes to which of your chars to use. Outright using a character you don't use though just to counterpick is usually bleh though.

And Law, I've heard contrary about DL and Link. Not sure really how that works.

 

[Skrlx]

Counterpicking really comes in handy when it comes to secondaries. I assume not everyone uses ONE character. Counterpicking helps a lot when it comes to which of your chars to use. Outright using a character you don't use though just to counterpick is usually bleh though.

And Law, I've heard contrary about DL and Link. Not sure really how that works.

I main all the characters.

So, just for the lulz i stick to 1 character. (i beat all their characters and if i get bored i switch to another character which totally throws off the opponents mindset. they would sorta memorize your gameplay of that char. it surely pisses them off to encounter another char with different gameplay because during all those matches they were trying to memorize and try to counter.)

 

[infernovia]

These are matchups I have trouble with.

Falcon v. Kirby. Kirby out prioritizes your aerials with his aerials and with utilt. Falcon can beat kirby's aerials with usmash but that means you have to come in close leaving you vunerable for devastating juggles if you guessed wrong. Also, swallow is a ***** online because you don't have a move that has a bigger range, it even beats a falcon punch and short hopped aerials. Evil when they do it around the edge but it is just annoying. Actually, it doesn't even annoy me anymore, but something to consider. I would put this around 2-8.

Falcon v. Mario. Not as bad as Kirby but pretty much the same problems. You have back air, and they have a lot more. Also, juggles. And you can't use your shield because mario ***** shield. Your usmash is still helpful, although now you have to guess between mario's jumped uair or dair. 3-7

Falcon v. Yoshi. Mainly because of superarmor which allows yoshi to jump out early of combos, its a pretty cool battle actually. 3-7.

Falcon v. Ness. Aerials are annoying as hell and he has a lot of huge disjointed hitboxes. The only thing is, his utilt is a lot slower than kirby. But annoying. 3-7. Again, no shield.

My second character that I know very well is fox. But yeah... thats probably going to get slammed. I have a lot of trouble with DK with my fox because they can grab me right out of shorthops, but this is more than likely because I haven't nailed down jab->usmash or jab->dair and a lot of combos.

 

[Superstar]

Difference between Mario and Ness though, Mario is harder to combo, and his fireballs **** you. Ness, however, combos you better than Mario.

Falcon is easy to combo with Ness. Hell, I even have one combo memorized that works only on Falcon. Dair->utiltx3->DJC uair-> [most anything, if it props him to the ledge then fair->dair him]. Got it to 0-death here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuMAYSXRf34

On the ground, if it won't 0-kill, dair->utiltx3->uair->usmash->bair. Does 80ish. Dair can be replace with 2 utilts for 5 utilts. Does a little less damage but still same combo. The DJC uair will have to be better in that variant.

Not the greatest combo of all time, but it works. dair can be replaced with two utilts, yadayada, don't rely onit because if you go for it too much then Falcon will **** you. Works better outside of Dreamland or any area with obvious platforms [platforms mess that one but give you other ones].

EDIT: You can get variants for other chars though. Link I think is utiltx4? Or utiltx3 and 2 uairs, one of the two.

 

[infernovia]

Yeah, I find ness's combos are deadly and really difficult to change, but I pretty much thought this was due to bad di more than anything.

 

[Dark Deku]

Why would you care? Yeah like Nixxxon said "don't be a counterpick ***".

 

[infernovia]

I am just pointing out matches I have trouble with or those I consider difficult. This is what the creator asked for. If I am wrong, then I learn something about the matchup and it might be a more fun battle. In this case, I improve one of my matches and there is more information out there.

Counterpicking is lame, and so is a difficult matchup.

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

The way 64 is made is awesome because when it comes to the number of character it's perfect. Maining every one of them is easy since there is not that much so you see more matches with each and get to understand them faster.

That's why since melee, people have been using 1-5 characters because almost all the others sux. And in brawl well you get to try each characters and figures that only the tops really matters.


That's why imo 64 is the best of all because you get to experience every aspect of the game with (ease) at a certain level and even if you know how to use every characters almost perfectly there is still combos to figure...Smash 64 capacity is endless..

 

[Krevin]

I'd recommend picking up 2 or 3 characters, but for the most part you should stick to your main. There's no dramatic counters in 64 (like the Pikachu vs Fox matchup in Brawl) so you shouldn't need to differentiate from your main too often. Hell, I'm a Falcon main, and I find that he works about as well against Kirby and Ness (his supposed best counters) as my Fox (my alt), simply because I've trained so much with Captain Falcon, and because counters don't effect 64 as much as actual skill does. Besides, almost every character has a way to "counter their counterpicks", so to speak. For example, Falcon's biggest threats are lightweights, and Falcon is good at low damage kills, so all you have to do is land a few uairs, then bair them off the stage and dair them out of their recovery. It works well for me, since I play against Kirby and Ness pretty frequently.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Im going to list each of them and their counters, Ill Go by Dreamland and Hyrule for stages because its more stage selection than anything for most of these chars

Pikachu: Matters which stage, on HC probably Fox or maybe Falcon/DK. Dreamland is broken for Pika, if you can ban it ban it, otherwise probably Fox or DK, no character does especially well vs Pika so none of these are sure wins, they are more even

Kirby: Fox, Luigi, DK, Jiggs, Mario on HC Any of those besides Fox on DL, no real big counter but not as hard a matchup as Pikachu

Fox: No real counter on HC if anything Mario, on DL, DK, Mario, Pikachu, Kirby MAYBE

Ness: Most characters do reasonably well vs Ness, I think this is the only matchup besides Jigglypuff that Samus counters, DK does well on both stages, so does falcon, Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, pick more of what you think is your best character

Mario: another good character with no real counter besides on DL, Pikachu/Kirby on DL, maybe fox and probably Pika on HC

Falcon: Mario and Fox on both stages, Kirby does reasonably well on both, Pikachu is basically even on HC, Jiggs does well vs Falcon on HC

Jigglypuff: Samus on HC, DK BY FAR on both (grab into giant punch kills incredibly quckly), Luigi also does really well

Luigi: Fox probably on HC, DK on DL, no real counter but Luigi doesn't do that well either

Yoshi: Kirby, Pikachu, Fox, no others needed (LOL)

Link: DK on DL, Fox on HC, Falcon (?) on DL, Pikachu/Kirby on both

DK: Fox (maybe) on HC, maybe Mario on HC, no big counter on DL, maybe Pikachu on both MAYBE, Luigi does pretty well also, Samus does well but only on HC, Link on HC also maybe

Samus: Pikachu, Fox, Falcon, Samus doesn't do that well either vs anyone but Ness and Jiggs

There really aren't that many huge counters in smash 64, that is one of the main reasons why my favorite smash is smash 64

 

[JaimeHR]

I counter every character with BEEF!characters, because those are way more powerful than the regular characters. If you want to play as BEEF!characters such as BEEF!Mario, BEEF!Samus or even BEEF!Pikachu you need to do the follow:

1. - First, you need to summon BEEF!Man! and challenge him to a Mortal Kombat.
2. - Now play against him 24/7 non-stop until dawn or when your hands stop working.
3. - Unlock Goku by the traditional way, you'll mess up if you use Gameshark codes!
4. - 99 Stock BEEF!Man! in a match (you have to 99 Stock him in 1 match, that's why you need Goku)
5. - Once you beat him, he'll grant you access to the BEEF!characters!!!!

After that, every time you go to the character select screen you'll see that everyone has the BEEF! near thier name, regular Link's name will be displayed as BEEF!Link and such and now you'll be able to counter everyone on the whole planet!

When you wake up, you'll notice that everything was a dream and you didn't even unlock Goku nor the BEEF!characters... Then you'll realize that there's no such thing as "counter picking" and the key to victory lies only within yourself and practicing will really help you to counter everything.

j/k C.falcon counters everyone except Jigglypuff!!!!

 

[Surri-Sama]

Everyone who says "dont counter pick"



STFU


If you play in a tourney...and purposly dont counter pick because you think "you're above" counter picking...you're a scrub

 

[NixxxoN]

lol for sure there are blind picks in tourneys...

Oh wait, in tourneys, most of people "pikachupicks" instead...

 

[Superstar]

Well, for counterpicks to work, you need to know the character. This isn't Brawl. I can't pick Pikachu and win, I have a better chance picking Mario if I want to win, just cause I know him better and I CAN'T combo with Pikachu.

Assuming you know 2 characters will, counterpicking within those 2 chars is fine. That's one of the reasons to know multiple characters, TO counterpick.

That's why since melee, people have been using 1-5 characters because almost all the others sux. And in brawl well you get to try each characters and figures that only the tops really matters.

Melee's balance isn't that bad. XD I main Mario in Melee. Sure, he's horrible, but I say that only cause my standards are too high. Not everyone tier whores. All of mid to top is viable. More than what I can say for Brawl.

 

[Surri-Sama]

lol for sure there are blind picks in tourneys...

Oh wait, in tourneys, most of people "pikachupicks" instead...

I can honestly say NO

I main pikachu and I almost NEVER use him for the first blind pick...ask Nintendude, he thought the same thing xP

no pikachu johnz!

Well, for counterpicks to work, you need to know the character. This isn't Brawl. I can't pick Pikachu and win, I have a better chance picking Mario if I want to win, just cause I know him better and I CAN'T combo with Pikachu.

Assuming you know 2 characters will, counterpicking within those 2 chars is fine. That's one of the reasons to know multiple characters, TO counterpick.



Melee's balance isn't that bad. XD I main Mario in Melee. Sure, he's horrible, but I say that only cause my standards are too high. Not everyone tier whores. All of mid to top is viable. More than what I can say for Brawl.

Melee is by far my fav smash game, and even i wouldnt say its more "balanced" if anything its the most broken xP

 

[Superstar]

More balanced that 64, no. More balnaced than Brawl, yeah. :D

Just not as unbalanced as people make it out to be. Only 5 good character is basically saying Falcon is no good, for example.

 

[Surri-Sama]

More balanced that 64, no. More balnaced than Brawl, yeah. :D

Just not as unbalanced as people make it out to be. Only 5 good character is basically saying Falcon is no good, for example.

Even if you say the top 10 in melee, that’s still blows the rest of the cast (other then outliers) out of tournament viability ALLTOGETHER. In Brawl, tournament viable chars go right down the tier list till about the last 10-15.

The TOP of Brawls tier maybe more broken (mainly MK) then melee, but as a whole Melee is far more broken.

 

[NixxxoN]

Fox, Marth and Sheik are too good and the bottom tiers are too crap

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

let's not get into another brawl vs melee argument, save it for the general brawl boards.

One other thing, besides MK, brawl in my opinion is more balanced. With it, I can't decide.

MK in brawl is like Pikachu in smash 64 HEH.

 

[Superstar]

In Brawl, tournament viable chars go right down the tier list till about the last 10-15.

Also remember that people tier ***** more in Melee than Brawl, and Brawl has more nubs. So, while more tournament results may imply that more characters are usable, also remember how a good number of Brawl tournaments ARE. I say more half the cast is crap in Brawl. Hell, even top tiers have some balance problems. And MK, while it is not good enough to be banned, has no equal. The gap between MK and Snake is more than the gap between Snake and Dedede. The Melee top 5 are closer to each other than the Brawl top 5.

Basically, I agree with this statement: Kirby in Brawl has the same chance as Kirby as Melee.

EDIT: Melee vs Brawl balance isn't allowed in the Brawl boards anyways.

Personally, the main reason is because Brawl has little skill involved. What beats tiers? Skill. Little skill opportunities, harder to overcome counterpicks.

 

[P D]

characters counter pick peoples styles not other characters in ssb64

 

[makemegood]

For everyone who hasn't paid attention to the name of the thread, or doesn't know what section they are in, this is a Super Smash Brothers for the Nintendo 64 discussion. I have no problem with you discussing Melee or Brawl, but go do it in the Melee or Brawl section. If you want to compare SSB64 to Melee or Brawl, fine, but make it applicable.

 

[Superstar]

It is applicable.

By discussing how the balancee in other games suck and to what extent, it makes SSB64 sound better in comparison. Therefore, by bashing Brawl repeatedly, Smash 64 is therefore made better in comparison.

And makemegood, you sound like a minimod. That's something craigg should say, not you.

 

[craiigg]

the melee disc was in context

 

[Superstar]

Speaking of which, something I thought up. Throws actually balance the game.

Some people have better throws. But almost everyone has a good throw somewhere. Now, some characters have a hard time killing with their smash attacks, but their throw is always there. Means characters that should have a hard time killing, like Ness, can actually kill with a throw.

Now look at the two bottom tiers, Link and Samus. For throwing, their grab sucks. Link kills fine without the grab though, so meh.

 

[Winston]

Speaking of which, something I thought up. Throws actually balance the game.

Some people have better throws. But almost everyone has a good throw somewhere. Now, some characters have a hard time killing with their smash attacks, but their throw is always there. Means characters that should have a hard time killing, like Ness, can actually kill with a throw.

Now look at the two bottom tiers, Link and Samus. For throwing, their grab sucks. Link kills fine without the grab though, so meh.

Poor Link and Samus. Every other character has a guaranteed follow-up after hitting someone's shield with an aerial =(

Also I'm going to blatantly ignore the request of the OP and continue discussing things other than his original question because I'm sick of discussing matchups for now...

SSB64 is hella balanced in the sense that both its top tier and its "playable tier" are huge in proportion to the amount of characters it has. However, it does suffer from "metaknight syndrome" in which one character has matchups that are no worse than 55:45 (pikachu). Melee's top tier is more balanced among itself. Overall, though, 64 is much more balanced.

Also, why are some people expressing anti-counterpick sentiments...? that makes no sense. It's perfectly fine if you decide that you have more fun when you stick to one character, but in a tournament not using the advantages that you have would just be rather strange.

 

[infernovia]

Dude, I wish we could hack blind picks in online. I hate it when I pick falcon and they purposefully go to kirby, then I switch to fox and they pick someone else. Its sooo dumb. Usually, they suck, but I don't want to play character tag. I have no problem with counterpicks but when I wanna play for fun, I don't want this kinda thing to happen.

Of course, I just go pika. *shrug* Or link if they suck enough.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If only Samus had a quick grab...She would be so much better.

 

[Skrlx]

If only Samus had a quick grab...She would be so much better.

if only her dodge roll wasn't so slow and predictable =/

 

[B Link]

if only her dodge roll wasn't so slow and predictable =/

usually u upb out of shields not roll

 

[Skrlx]

usually u upb out of shields not roll

lol i know but i'm just saying.. too slow and predictable

 

[Winston]

if only her dodge roll wasn't so slow and predictable =/

don't see how this would help at all... do you roll often with other characters? =P

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Rolling is good every now and then, and yes a faster roll would help samus, even if upb out of shield is usually a better option