Ssb 4 day 2 tournament

[Chiroz]

I don't speak for everyone, but I think its the exact opposite. The rewards on Warioware are given randomly (you know if you're getting a reward, but have no clue what it is) and can sway matches. No amount of skill and training will change that. However, being able to avoid and abuse hazards is a skill which you can train.

He isn't wrong. Warioware's gimmick can be seen as hard because it "sways" a match as you said.

Yes we don't like randomness but if its very subtle or controllable randomness, such as a moving platform that spawns randomly then that's fine. The more the "randomness" or hazard can sway a match without player interaction the more we don't like it. Also some hazards are just banned because they change the game into something completely different. Such as Arena Ferox, which is going to get banned because it will change the game into a stalling match (Like Pokemon Stadium 1 Earth Transformation, which remained legal for a very long time, did) and most people would prefer not playing a match where you HAVE to stall/camp more than half of it.

 

[Second Power]

He isn't wrong. Warioware's gimmick can be seen as hard because it "sways" a match as you said.

Yes we don't like randomness but if its very subtle or controllable randomness, such as a moving platform that spawns randomly then that's fine. The more the "randomness" or hazard can sway a match without player interaction the more we don't like it. Also some hazards are just banned because they change the game into something completely different. Such as Arena Ferox, which is going to get banned because it will change the game into a stalling match (Like Pokemon Stadium 1 Earth Transformation, which remained legal for a very long time, did) and most people would prefer not playing a match where you HAVE to stall/camp more than half of it.

Any instances of randomness provided by the stage is a hazard, but the reverse is not true. Not all hazards are random. Alternatively, not random in such a way that could cost a good player the game. For example, Brinstar's lava rises slowly despite it being random where it rises to (except for some visual cues which a decent player can catch).

If the match was swayed because of the stage with no input from the players, then yeah the stage shouldn't be legal. But, if it's quite clear that one of the players hadn't practiced the stage, that's their fault and they deserve the loss. Hate the playa, not the stage.

And two questions; What do you mean when you use the adjective 'hard' to describe Warioware? And, what transformation lets you camp Arena Ferox? Show a gameplay video, if possible.

 

[Chiroz]

Any instances of randomness provided by the stage is a hazard, but the reverse is not true. Not all hazards are random. Alternatively, not random in such a way that could cost a good player the game. For example, Brinstar's lava rises slowly despite it being random where it rises to (except for some visual cues which a decent player can catch).

If the match was swayed because of the stage with no input from the players, then yeah the stage shouldn't be legal. But, if it's quite clear that one of the players hadn't practiced the stage, that's their fault and they deserve the loss. Hate the playa, not the stage.

And two questions; What do you mean when you use the adjective 'hard' to describe Warioware? And, what transformation lets you camp Arena Ferox? Show a gameplay video, if possible.

As I said some stages with hazards are banned because of the gameplay they create instead of just having hazards. Some players think pros "can't handle this stages" when they don't understand that its actually the opposite, they handle the stage so well that the game becomes boring as the stage creates a very stale gameplay. Most people don't want to see/play as 2 people gimp each other into the stage hazard for 8 minutes or camp/stall every time a hazard comes up, they want to see actual Smash gameplay.



Its the same as saying things like "hard" counter, or "hard" read. I don't know exactly how to define hard in that concept, I think it's more of a colloquial use of the word, it isn't actually part of its definition. It's like saying "powerful" or something, I am not sure. Basically the random factor in Warioware is "powerful", this isn't the exact meaning, but it's close.

Arena Ferox has a transformation with like 5 different platforms and walls. It allows you to camp at specific spots where your opponent's options to approach you are reduced to 1 or 2 options. Because his options are reduced so drastically at that given spot any approach your opponent performs will be completely obvious and as such you can punish it extremely easy. So why would your opponent approach you if you will just be able to punish him anyways? As such your opponents optimal strategy is to also camp one of these specific spots. Basically stalling until the transformation ends. It's the same thing that happened in PS1 once people started playing lame.

 

[Second Power]

As I said some stages with hazards are banned because of the gameplay they create instead of just having hazards. Some players think pros "can't handle this stages" when they don't understand that its actually the opposite, they handle the stage so well that the game becomes boring as the stage creates a very stale gameplay. Most people don't want to see/play as 2 people gimp each other into the stage hazard for 8 minutes or camp/stall every time a hazard comes up, they want to see actual Smash gameplay.

Its the same as saying things like "hard" counter, or "hard" read. I don't know exactly how to define hard in that concept, I think it's more of a colloquial use of the word, it isn't actually part of its definition. It's like saying "powerful" or something, I am not sure. Basically the random factor in Warioware is "powerful", this isn't the exact meaning, but it's close.

Arena Ferox has a transformation with like 5 different platforms and walls. It allows you to camp at specific spots where your opponent's options to approach you are reduced to 1 or 2 options. Because his options are reduced so drastically at that given spot any approach your opponent performs will be completely obvious and as such you can punish it extremely easy. So why would your opponent approach you if you will just be able to punish him anyways? As such your opponents optimal strategy is to also camp one of these specific spots. Basically stalling until the transformation ends. It's the same thing that happened in PS1 once people started playing lame.

These are some bold claims to be making when the majority of us haven't even reached Day 1, and no one has had the game for even a month yet. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither are stage lists. Nobody is a pro at any stage yet, and nobody will be for a while. You yourself pointed out (and keep pointing out) PS1, wasn't it legal for 10+ years?

I'll wait until I see actual video evidence of degenerative gameplay. At least then, later down the line, when someone asks "Why is this illegal?" we can pull up a video and show them rather than say "It looked bad so we couldn't be bothered to try it".

 

[ninjaclone09]

oh ****, i just realized:

>43 double elimination

why 43? what the hell kind of number is that

 

[Chiroz]

These are some bold claims to be making when the majority of us haven't even reached Day 1, and no one has had the game for even a month yet. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither are stage lists. Nobody is a pro at any stage yet, and nobody will be for a while. You yourself pointed out (and keep pointing out) PS1, wasn't it legal for 10+ years?

I'll wait until I see actual video evidence of degenerative gameplay. At least then, later down the line, when someone asks "Why is this illegal?" we can pull up a video and show them rather than say "It looked bad so we couldn't be bothered to try it".

These claims weren't made by me. Just like you I asked what was so "campy" about the transformation because top level players (some of the top 8 brawl players and some of the top 16 melee players) told me it wasn't going to be allowed. I asked why and they told me it was similar to PS1 where it will either create a very campy match or players will just stall out that one transformation. They then explained to me how certain spots can be camped and if your opponent approaches you have a very clear advantage as such no one will approach you knowing that you have a very clear advantage.

If your opponent stands at a spot at which he makes your approaches much, much worse. And you have the option either to approach or not, why would you approach? Why not just wait out the 20 or so seconds of the transformation? On the other hand, if you are at a spot at which you have a clear advantage if your opponent decides to move towards you, then why would you move from said spot?

 

[Treuce]

oh ****, i just realized:

>43 double elimination

why 43? what the hell kind of number is that

Lol, I thought that was a strange number since I saw this thread. Also, I've joined the waiting list and of course posted here but still haven't heard anything from TC...

 

[Chiroz]

Lol, I thought that was a strange number since I saw this thread. Also, I've joined the waiting list and of course posted here but still haven't heard anything from TC...

Normally it should be either 32, 48 or 64

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Yeah, been a while since we heard of from the TO for a while, might need to get some clarification about the 43 people.

 

[Themandme]

Just a wierd thing

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Normally I'd suggest adding more until it's at either an even number, or more likely, 48, but I'd want to talk to the streamer to see if they're okay with that. This really seems like it's going to take all day.

 

[Chiroz]

Normally I'd suggest adding more until it's at either an even number, or more likely, 48, but I'd want to talk to the streamer to see if they're okay with that. This really seems like it's going to take all day.

If you add me tag me in a post so I know.

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Do we have everyone's FC on record? It'd be helpful to be able to have everyone added beforehand so we don't need to do it before each match.

 

[Archimedes]

Do we have everyone's FC on record? It'd be helpful to be able to have everyone added beforehand so we don't need to do it before each match.

That is A LOT of people to add. Isn't there a way I can add the people I verse? I mean My friends list is always almost full and ive been deleting people like crazy, but the number keeps going up because ive been adding people as well.

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Oh, I never assumed we'd be adding EVERYONE in the tourney, I just meant so we could add assumed opponents.

 

[Souless_shadow]

We should probably make a skype group for this soon.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Any instances of randomness provided by the stage is a hazard, but the reverse is not true. Not all hazards are random. Alternatively, not random in such a way that could cost a good player the game. For example, Brinstar's lava rises slowly despite it being random where it rises to (except for some visual cues which a decent player can catch).

Brinstar actually makes for a better example than you anticipated. Brinstar's acid is not random at all. The pattern is clear and preset, and when the pattern reaches its end, it repeats.

Would be a shame if the host of the tournament failed to show up, though I don't think that should be an issue. You'll probably end up hearing from him tomorrow, with the release of the game. Though I find it interesting that the tournament is being hosted on the same day as Nintendo's Open Challenge.

 

[Themandme]

Brinstar actually makes for a better example than you anticipated. Brinstar's acid is not random at all. The pattern is clear and preset, and when the pattern reaches its end, it repeats.

Would be a shame if the host of the tournament failed to show up, though I don't think that should be an issue. You'll probably end up hearing from him tomorrow, with the release of the game. Though I find it interesting that the tournament is being hosted on the same day as Nintendo's Open Challenge.

well nintendos open challenge is the same day as big house 4

 

[Tremendo Dude]

well nintendos open challenge is the same day as big house 4

Fair enough. Big House isn't hosting Sm4sh though, is it?

 

[Themandme]

Fair enough. Big House isn't hosting Sm4sh though, is it?

its not but its still a big tournament

 

[RPGatWill]

I am only going to add the people I play against. Unfortunately my friends list is very sparse at the moment and I'm not sure how many people I'll eventually have to delete to make room for the smash clan battles that I need to moderate.

As long as everyone's FC is on record or in the tournament area on Challonge it will be easy to add them as the battles progress.

 

[goodspeed87]

Yeah I think it'll be best if we just add our immediate opponents instead of bothering to add every contestant. Just have your matchup contestant pre-loaded!!

 

[HdTyvek]

so no check in required, we just using this day to prepare for tomorrow?

 

[Supersmashbrothers.]

I would like to join.

Characters: Duck hunt duo/Robin

Edit: Oh well. All the tourneys are full :/

 

[dustyjo]

Oh crap I almost forgot to put my friend code in.

Also, characters are C.Falcon/Lucina.

 

[Gidy]

Has it started?

 

[SomewhatMystia]

Nope, starts tomorrow.

Finalizing my two characters as PacMan and Doctor Mario.

 

[Gidy]

Oh.

I want my characters as Mii Swordsman and Mario

 

[goodspeed87]

Locking in Diddy Kong / Palutena.

 

[Slyphoria]

I'd like to finalize my characters as Mr. Game & Watch and Wario. Bowser Jr isn't working as well as I'd hoped. I'm not giving him up, but he's nowhere near ready for a tourney.

 

[RPGatWill]

I'm going to lock in as Link and Lucina. Robin will take a lot more work to get good at right now.

 

[Souless_shadow]

I'm gonna lock in Dark Pit and Rosalina.

 

[Archimedes]

Oh we have to lock in characters?

 

[Themandme]

My pick are

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Not sure if noted, but my skype is BestTeaMaker. FC is on the profile to the side.

 

[Second Power]

@ Themandme

Unfortunately, I have to drop out as I won't get the game in time, sorry.

 

[RPGatWill]

So we start in about an hour right? Is there going to be a new topic to or are we just going to use this one and Zipzo's stream to know who is fighting who and when?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'll pick Bowser Junior and Charizard. Now I need to find the FC of the one I'm going against first.

 

[HdTyvek]

@ Themandme looking forward to our set today sir =D

 

[Zhyrri]

I'll lock in Yoshi/Shulk.
Friend code is 1461-6200-8317
Raidcall is Xhyrri