Specifics of DI

[Infil]

Hi everyone, been a while since I've posted here! Used to play a lot of Melee back in the mid 2000s, got good enough to do well in my local scene (but not good enough to compete nationally), then stopped when Brawl came out. Project M has really reinvigorated my enjoyment of Smash Bros, so I'm making an effort to try to pick it up again, and I hope the scene continues to embrace the game.

Watching tournament matches, it's becoming really clear that I don't understand exactly how DI works in Melee or Project M (it was the one technical aspect of the game that I didn't have a firm grasp on when I used to play), so I read the page on the SSBWiki but would like some further clarification specifically for Project M (but I imagine it works similarly to Melee; if there are differences, I'd like to know them).

What is the best possible DI you could input for these scenario (let's say if you were programming a computer with perfect information to play):
- Fox up-smashes you at around 80% on FD. Do you use both the c-stick and the analog stick? Do you try to time your DI with the exact moment of the smash attack (before? after?) or can you just hold it? Do both sticks go in the same direction or in different directions? The way I used to do it was I immediately slammed both sticks on down to prevent getting hit high, but then I read that Smash handles input as vectors, so then I started doing one stick with down and the other stick right or left, but I get the sense this is still far from optimal. Should I smash both sticks either left or right? One left and one right? What if you're near the left edge of the stage and the up-smash kind of hits you at a northwest angle (as opposed to the center of the stage), does that impact how you DI?

- You get hit by Fox forward smash on the middle of the stage at around 100%. This is kind of like the other case, but reversed. Again, I used to do both sticks back towards the stage, but I'm sure this is bad. DI-ing up might get you KOed off the top... is it just as effective to DI down?

- Jigglypuff grabs your Fox at 10% for the rest combo. Do you try to time your DI directly with the release of the throw, or can you just be holding both sticks left/right and it will do the same thing? Does DI-ing in the up or down direction do anything? What about for cases like... someone grabbing you, then executing a weak throw that can't kill, but will set you up for a back-air at 130%. Do most people try to DI the throw and then continue the same DI for the back-air, or do you perform two separate, distinct DI attempts; the throw first, then return the sticks to neutral, then try to DI the back-air?

- Fox tries to up-air you for a KO. This concept of "smash DI" is something I haven't incorporated into my game. I hear it most commonly referred to get out of this exact move... is it useful in other scenarios, and if so, can you give an example or two? How is it performed in general?

There are a lot of fairly noobish questions here but I would like to finally understand how the system works for real. Thanks for any help.

 

[DJ _ICE]

If you haven't checked this out already, this should help. http://smashboards.com/threads/a-gu...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/
It should have everything you need

 

[Phantasmagorical]

Take this all with a grain of salt, as I'm not 100% knowledgeable on how DI and SDI work, but I think I have a good idea. In general, DI in this game is exactly like Melee, or as close as the developers could get it to be.

- Fox up-smashes you at around 80% on FD. Do you use both the c-stick and the analog stick? Do you try to time your DI with the exact moment of the smash attack (before? after?) or can you just hold it? Do both sticks go in the same direction or in different directions? The way I used to do it was I immediately slammed both sticks on down to prevent getting hit high, but then I read that Smash handles input as vectors, so then I started doing one stick with down and the other stick right or left, but I get the sense this is still far from optimal. Should I smash both sticks either left or right? One left and one right? What if you're near the left edge of the stage and the up-smash kind of hits you at a northwest angle (as opposed to the center of the stage), does that impact how you DI?

The analog stick is used for normal DI, while the C-stick can simultaneously be used for SDI and ASDI (automatic SDI; basically a weaker, easier version of SDI). Essentially, then, the analog stick changes your trajectory when you get hit, while the C-stick changes the position from which the hit takes place. What is usually done is that the analog stick is angled such that your trajectory is as close to the corner of the stage as possible, while the C-stick is angled toward the center of the stage. Usually, then (but not always), the analog stick and C-stick should be pointed in opposing directions. In the case that you're getting hit by a move which has vertical knockback, tilting the analog stick down will do nothing. Holding the analog stick in directions parallel to the knockback direction does nothing; optimal DI is actually perpendicular to the direction. Thus, if you're getting hit directly up (a 90 degree angle), optimal DI would be tilting the analog stick at a 0 or 180 degree angle. Optimal ASDI, however, would be tilting the C-stick down and away from the direction you're DIing to. This is because, with DI, assuming you're holding the analog stick at a 0 degree angle, you'd actually be getting knocked back at about a 75 degree angle (up and slightly to the right). Thus, you'd want to alter your position (through SDI or ASDI) to be down and slightly left so that you have further to travel before hitting the blast zone. For a realistic case, the case of Fox's upsmash, which isn't exactly 90 degrees, you'd want to hold the analog stick in the same direction he's facing, and hold the C-stick down. This won't give you 100% optimal DI, but it'll do just fine in a pinch. It's not like you'll have a free moment to precisely alter the position of your sticks for perfect DI when a Fox is running at you, but you can get very close with these approximations.

- You get hit by Fox forward smash on the middle of the stage at around 100%. This is kind of like the other case, but reversed. Again, I used to do both sticks back towards the stage, but I'm sure this is bad. DI-ing up might get you KOed off the top... is it just as effective to DI down?

In the case of Fox's forward smash, which has (IIRC) about a 50 degree angle of knockback, if you're getting hit in the middle of the stage, your realistic best bet for DI would be none at all, since the knockback would already be sending you close to the upper corner of the stage. For a more likely case, such as Fox fsmashing you at the edge of the stage, you want to DI up and toward him -- roughly perpendicular to the original direction of knockback. DI only influences your angle by about 15 degrees anyway, meaning you're not really in any danger of getting KO'd off the top, and since your knockback would be mostly vertical in that case, you're less likely to get KO'd off the side. Even if you do die off the top, you would have certainly died off the side at the same percent. Also, in this case, you would NOT want to DI down. At all. DIing down is useful for escaping combos, but not for living. Never ever DI straight down to survive. It will either do nothing at all or actually hurt you. Consider the case of a move with 45 degree knockback. If you DI down, you'd be changing that to a 30 degree angle of knockback, and most characters' fall speed is enough to make that closer to 0 degrees, leaving you on level with or below the stage, and far away. Recovering from there is hard.

- Jigglypuff grabs your Fox at 10% for the rest combo. Do you try to time your DI directly with the release of the throw, or can you just be holding both sticks left/right and it will do the same thing? Does DI-ing in the up or down direction do anything? What about for cases like... someone grabbing you, then executing a weak throw that can't kill, but will set you up for a back-air at 130%. Do most people try to DI the throw and then continue the same DI for the back-air, or do you perform two separate, distinct DI attempts; the throw first, then return the sticks to neutral, then try to DI the back-air?

You do not need to time your DI with the throw's release; as long as you are holding the sticks for the DI you want when the knockback is applied, it will cause you to DI. You can hold the analog stick left or right before you even get grabbed and it will still work once the throw finishes. In the case of Puff's up throw, DIing up or down would not do anything, since (as previously stated) DIing parallel to the knockback doesn't do anything, so you'd want to DI directly left or right. For the other throw combo example, you'd do two separate DIs: one to try to escape the followup from the throw, and another to try to live from the back air. You don't need to reset to neutral, though, you can just go directly from one direction to the next and it will apply.

- Fox tries to up-air you for a KO. This concept of "smash DI" is something I haven't incorporated into my game. I hear it most commonly referred to get out of this exact move... is it useful in other scenarios, and if so, can you give an example or two? How is it performed in general?

SDI, as I said above, allows you to slightly alter your position during hitlag of moves. If you ever played Brawl and got hit with Marth's final smash, the state you're in after he hits you and you're just sitting there in the air before you actually get knocked back, that's hitlag. This is done by smashing the analog (or C-) stick in a direction during hitlag, and you'll move a bit in that direction. Refer to this gif to see what it looks like. This is useful for any attack, but is most practical and useful for escaping multi-hit moves, such as Fox's up-air. What people do to escape that is to smash both sticks in the direction opposite of Fox's travel (so if he jumps to the left, you'd smash to the right) right at the moment when he would up-air. This changes their position so that the second hit (which has all the knockback) misses them. There are more efficient ways to SDI moves with many hits, which you can read about here.

Sorry for writing so much (especially when all this information can be found elsewhere), I tend to be wordy when explaining concepts. Giving more examples than needed is usually better than not giving enough. Hopefully you understood everything.

 

[Infil]

Thanks for the responses, especially your detailed post Phantasmagorical. IMO there can never be too many resources, or too many descriptions of the same thing, because information that is buried in other threads is often hard to find, and it usually doesn't cover a lot of precise examples. There's never harm in over-explaining something, because it will always be helpful to someone who is reading.

So, it's glad to hear that I was basically correct; me constantly trying to DI down when getting hit by up-smashes is 100% totally useless. Going to have to work on adjusting my muscle memory for that.

I had also heard that doing DI with both the c-stick and the analog stick is twice as effective as just one stick, but it sounds like that's also false. Either the c-stick overrides the analog stick during hitlag or 1 frame after hitlag (for SDI and ASDI), or else it's only the analog stick that is considered?

So, let me follow up: in the Fox up-smash example, you say I should try to ASDI down using the C-stick, and then pick left/right with the analog stick. If my reactions are slow and I miss the ASDI window (which, I gather, is basically the first frame after hitlag ends), the C-stick down doesn't even do anything, right? Also, there's no reason I should try to time my analog DI with the hitstop of the attack... I'm better off just holding it before getting smashed if I can react, or as soon after I'm smashed as possible.

It's also interesting to consider that DIing out of a Jigglypuff up-throw optimally is actually rather easy, you just need to hold left or right with the analog stick (there's no timing or trickery involved). I guess this is why I don't see many top players getting thrown into a rest anymore. I guess the only way this would work is if a Jiggs player was sneaky in how they landed the throw and then threw immediately, hopefully making it hard to react with DI in time.