Specific Characters Match-up: Pikachu vs Lucario

[Coro_]

In this thread: how we fare against fellow Pokemon Lucario.

Lucario:

• Approaching:

• Edeguarding:

• Recoverying:

• Gameplan:

• Neutral:

• Killing Options:

• Stage Selection:

• Difficulty:

• Specific Situations:
  • Ground - Ground:
  • Ground - Air:
  • Air - Air:
  • Off Stage:
  • In High Percentage:

Extra information:
​

• I don't want to lose all the information that the community has discovered at this point. Most of this theory it's in the MU Thread.

• You can read the document made by the User Umbreoff which summarizes the previous post. Click here to see the document. I'm transcribing this document into a pdf version with access to new options. If you want to check the progress of this document I'll invite you to see the PDF Online Version.

• With respect to the Killing Section: add good Set-ups to perform the killing (not just the final attack). Set-ups performed in specific Stages are also welcome.

• With respect to the Stage Selection Section: we should discuss what stages to avoid and what stages are good for Pikachu. The Smash Player Esam made a Depth Analysis on each Stage. Recall that some stages could be good for Pikachu but are even better for other character that's the reason for why we should discuss this kind of things here (one example is Halberd: IMO is good for Pikachu but not against Meta Knight).

• With respect to the Difficulty Section we should discuss how difficult is this MU for Pikachu. If it's possible it would be good to associate a measure to this difficulty. I think that this section should be completed once we developed a lot of theory in the corresponding MU, otherwise is just speculation.

• With respect to the Specific Situations Section we should discuss what to do in both scenarios.

 

[Coro_]

I was led to make this thread after playing a legit Lucario on For Glory and experiencing first-hand how dominant he could be. Managed to get 8 matches in before he left, and I saved the replay on the final match, which is as follows (pardon my not being that good):

On to the discussion, I guess:

- First off, if you didn't know, a proper Lucario will make the most of the various ways to charge Aura Sphere, for example Turnaround AS (0:09), B-Reverse AS (0:12) and Wavebounce AS (he doesn't do it, but it's basically B-reverse + turnaround). It can be a deceptively fast approach tool (such as at 0:52), and can throw players off with its sudden change of direction. At low aura it's a mild disruption that won't do a lot of damage but can swing momentum into his favour. At high aura the charging hitbox is nigh-unavoidable if you're anywhere near him and can lead to enough stun to get AS'd in the face, or set up for other opportunities (2:47 for example).

- Lucario is a monster with high aura. Most of his moves will gain larger hitboxes and are more powerful, which stack on top of his rage. Other than Aura Sphere, his smashes become wider-reaching (he made extensive use of fsmash in some of the earlier matches I had with him) and kill earlier (you can see how I lost my second stock :< )

- Lucario's dash attack is pretty good, and at low % can lead to aerial strings (1:24), which carry surprisingly far, give or take aura. This can put Pika into an edgeguard situation/landing situation, which against Lucario can be pretty hard to deal with. Which brings me to...

- Lucario can threaten Pika's landing pretty bad. I feel that in this matchup, you in the air and him on the ground is a very bad situation, particularly so with aura. His AS is a constant threat, both with the charging hitbox and the actual projectile. Dsmash and Fsmash reach extremely far with aura, so maneuvering around him is tricky. This Lucario was fond of standing on the ledge and charging Usmash, which seemed to work out well for him (he did this all 8 matches, I caught on but still had problems dealing with it.) The Usmash has a deceptively large hitbox around Lucario when he has aura, which covers the ledge pretty well. Combined with the boost from aura + rage + Pika being light, simply grazing him when he throws that punch can lead to an early death. If he does this, recover low and snap to the ledge.

- It's pretty hard to approach a Lucario with aura. Pika has to get in close to do damage, and Tjolt is only so useful in trying to camp him out, when he has an AS that can blow through everything and hit us as we're in our ending lag. At early %, this isn't so hard, but again, once he has aura, he has tons of disjointed, lingering hitboxes that can spell death to Pika. Approaching from the air is tough since he has a decent nair and charging AS/thrown AS. Approaching from the ground might be more possible, though it's still a tricky game with his Force Palm and Fsmash reaching so far, as well as Charging AS stuffing grabs (0:29). I freely admit this might be doable, though when I tried it against him I just got grabbed a lot.

- A Lucario with aura can wall out Quick Attack pretty well. Late in the match I was starting to wear thin and decided to just try and play crazy, and tried to QA into him. Again, the ton of lingering hitboxes Lucario has with aura works in his favor. Charging AS can disrupt QA in-between if you're not careful (2:49), and Usmash caught my recovery attempts from offstage several times in the previous matches as well. Presumably, the same can be said for his other smashes. Trying to QA around or through him is an extremely dangerous game.

- In summary, the matchup gets worse the more Lucario takes damage. A Lucario with aura has all the tools to very quickly end the life of a Pika who fails to land the final blow. And since we all know what Pika's greatest flaw is...

Other minor points:

- His jab1 reaches pretty far for a jab, sweeping his arm in an arc. Be wary of it, since sometimes you think you're not close enough to get hit, and then you get hit (I certainly did a lot in the first few matches).
- He can approach with his dair which stalls his aerial momentum, though this Lucario didn't do it much.
- Remember, he has a counter! A Double Team with aura is yet another way to get killed early.
- Wall jump recovery can be used to avoid Tjolts that hug the wall if he's lucky (1:22)
- The part of Extreme Speed with an actual hitbox clanks with Tjolt (0:24), although he does have no invincibility or super armor. Just a minor point to take note.

 

[Coro_]

Seperate post to avoid wall of text, now discussing counter tech:

I did some thinking as well, to consider what I can do against this matchup, although, since I had 8 matches to get a read on him and try different stuff, evidently I still didn't figure it out properly. A couple pointers I picked up though:

- Dair seems to blow through Charging AS early on (0:53) due to the position of the hitboxes and hurtboxes, I managed to pull it off a couple times before it got too big.
- Don't approach with QA when he has aura. Use it only to escape and reset a situation.
- Always recover low against a Lucario with aura, if he's standing at the edge doing something. Do not try to challenge him.
- Do your best to kill him early, Lucario with aura feels pratically unwinnable at times :< of course, easier said than done

 

[Verduyn]

I play against a good Lucario fairly often and I personally don't really like the MU too much and always end up switching out to Ike. I find you have to kill Lucario early otherwise he gets VERY scary and outside of gimping that is something that Pika struggles with. As for gimping Lucario has an okay recovery at low percents and an incredible one when he has aura meaning that gimps aren't really going to happen if they're on their game. It's still worth challenging him offstage and maybe getting the stagespike but it's unlikely you'll put him in a position he can't recover from.

As for stages in this MU I tend to prefer triplat stages (DL and BF) but that's more because of the player I play against being very campy and generally just sitting at the ledge charging Aura Sphere so I need the plats to bait out the Aura Sphere. I feel that DL and BF are good stages in the MU anyway though. If I was going against a Lucario player I didn't know I would always go to Lylat if it wasn't banned due to it being a great stage for Pika and giving us the ability to duck under smaller Aura Spheres (maybe more. I'm not too sure, never had the nerve to do it on bigger ones)

 

[Soul.]

Lucario with Aura is stupid but that's in like, every matchup, especially with rage. Thanks to its comeback factor, getting the KO is difficult since it can do the same to you... but earlier. At low-mid percents, we can try to edgeguard it so that it doesn't come back to the stage, but once it has Aura it's kinda hard. It's not guaranteed either.

From my experience, I find jab locking into fsmash a good thing if you're near the side of the stage. Could potentially KO but I need to check this out again.

You do make a point about the edge though, Aura Sphere charge can lead to BAir which KOs early even if it has medium Aura.
We do better at low percents, but as I said, Lucario's mechanics make dealing with it a bit more difficult at high percents, and obviously being light sucks with such mechanic.

 

[M15t3R E]

Lucario is not fun to fight. His spaced attacks are very disjointed and he halts Pikachu's approaches quite easily. The worst part is he takes pleasure in being campier than a sloth on a lazy Sunday, charging away on his aura spheres. You can throw the Lucario for a loop by being campy yourself if aggression doesn't get you anywhere. You can slowly approach Lucario and wait for him to make mistakes. Ordinary aggressive gameplay really has no place in this MU. When Lucario is at kill percent, kill him immediately! Otherwise, he'll kill off your second stock all too quickly. Too play this MU, you must change it up and be defensive. I don't like it one bit, and chances are neither do you.

 

[Angiance]

I feel like this MU is in our favor for the simple fact that we plain outspeed him; he cannot keep up with us and we do not have to get hit, ever. Technically speaking, his aura only really grants Aura Sphere more utility, everything else is just the player being afraid of aura

 

[Coro_]

Let's talk about approaches~

Camping, well... @M15t3R E I think Lucario can out-camp us, plain and simple. If he's doing wavebounce AS like the Lucario above, he can just time his jumps over the Jolts when charging, and throw the AS once he has it, which if he times it well will blow through our jolt and hit us in the recovery frames (regardless of whether we did an air or ground Tjolt). Yeah, we can mix up our landing times and be unpredictable, but with AS against jolt it feels like he just gains so much more out of the projectile game compared to us - we're just racking up damage slowly, while he can do far more damage with a single projectile and/or kill with it. Speaking of which, we're slowly building damage on him, in other words, making his AS more powerful. Lucario himself has no real need to approach us should we resort to the camping technique, so we can't force him to take initiative and make a move first, either.

Okay, well, we can just aggro on him instead, right? Since we outspeed him? @Angiance I guess it's true, we do outspeed him, and maybe it's just me, but it feels like he can stuff any and all of our approaches, despite how fast we are. The most annoying thing about Lucario is charging AS stuffing any and all grab attempts, and also leaving us open for followups. In fact, charging AS is probably the most annoying tool he has, since we can't even touch him with most of our moves once it gets too big; it's like an instant get-off-me button that can set-up kills. He can stuff our aerials before we get to him - nair's hitboxes get really big, that alone can stop us due to how fast his nair is; bair's range becomes ridiculous, meaning we risk taking on a kill move just to approach him, and of course he can just throw the AS if we're not careful in how we approach him in the air. Ground-wise, I already mentioned grabs being completely stuffed, and QA being stupid dangerous around him, so I'm really not sure how to approach him offensively.
In other words, despite our speed, we're the one still making the first move if we aggro, so the Lucario can just sit back, see which route we're approaching him with, and preemptively throw a huge lingering hitbox to catch us should we commit to it.

I think the dealbreaker in this matchup is AS, it really feels like nothing we do can stop him from charging all day, so there's no way to force him to not be campy. Yeah, maybe I do have too much respect for aura, but Pika really can't deal with lingering disjoints, given how close he has to get. I had 8 matches against him, and I tried both campy, aggressive and a mixture of both, but to no avail. I'm really not that good, I know, but something in the game just felt like this was really a difficult matchup, possibly even disadvantageous.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well, this isn't Brawl Pikachu, so I do not have as much experience.

I'll give what I can brainstorm and think about later though.

 

[Angiance]

@ Coro_
Anytime a lucario attempts to apply AS Charge, they kill all of their mobility. If the lucario has the charge facing us, then the lucario can do no more but hope that the charge is touching us, elsewise it's completely counterable. Again, we don't have to get touched when fighting a lucario since they cannot keep up; I believe you just have a fear of being KOd during an encounter with one, and when you become afraid you become defensive (you drop your attack speed, the thing that is our greatest strength) and ironically become much more vulnerable

 

[Megamang]

It isn't just people being afraid, his moves do get better as he is hurt. Check out force palm!


Anyways, you wont gimp him, but if you get him offstage at early percents you should be able to rack damage pretty well. He doesn't have the best lingering, low hitting moves so he can be quick attacked effectively. Tjolts are a must as always, and remember if it comes down to it you should u-throw him off the ceiling as soon as he is in that damage range. Keep it fresh-use grab pummels to tack on damage safely and to refresh your moves.

Force palm grab stacks insanely well with the aura, don't get FP grabbed when he is really damaged. That means dont spotdodge or roll around too mindlessly, because you can suddenly lose a nice lead if you die at 40.

 

[Coro_]

@Angiance
What would you suggest is the best way to approach a Lucario with aura then? It would help if we knew which specific moves would work~

 

[Empire~]

you combo us ez then we hit you and you die

 

[Angiance]

@ Empire~
We combo you easy and then proceed to counter your every move; you can't actually touch us, silly .^ - ^.

@ Coro_
When a lucario has aura it only grants him more technical ability with AS, so your approach doesn't really change

 

[Megamang]

@ Angiance , stop saying that. Your approaching changes drastically based on his aura, and again, his hitboxes get bigger with damage.

 

[Angiance]

The only hitboxes that increase in size are FP's blast and AS. No, your approach does not change.

 

[Coro_]

http://smashboards.com/threads/q-a-aura-warriors-discover-master.373189/page-6#post-20121203
Yeah, I was mistaken, only AS and Force Palm get bigger. My bad.
Still, even if the approach doesn't change, it's a very risky game, since one wrong move and it's game over
What's the safest option we have against a defensive Lucario waiting to punish our moves? Punishing Aura Sphere is harder than it looks, given how fast he can cancel it.

 

[Angiance]

A lucario can only KO in a practical manner with AS Charge > U.Smash, everything else isn't so easy to connect

 

[Coro_]

Ah, I mean more a Lucario holding back, wavebouncing AS and waiting for us to approach him. Let's say we run in to try and hit him - what's our best option?

In the air, I don't think we have any options that penetrate AS charge, so we'll have to wait for him to land, and he can cancel it the moment he lands as well so it's tricky.

On the ground, I can't see landing grabs - he can instantly bring up AS charge. Fair, even on fadeaway is unsafe cause of Force Palm. Fsmash is unsafe. Jab, dtilt and ftilt again don't penetrate deep enough. Are Utilt and Usmash our only options? If so, it requires immaculate spacing or else we're eating a KO punish.

 

[Angiance]

AS Charge isn't invincible; AS Charge only covers their backside, and they lose all mobility once they have it out-plus, once it's fully charged and they Shieldcancel it, they lose it's greatest utility; they're left with no choice but to fire it, and the recovery from firing it is harsh.

Their feet are actually vulnerable as it is active

 

[Coro_]

So basically we have to watch their movement and see which way they face, and cross them up instantly should they flip?
Cause between Wavebounce and B-reverse AS they can put out its hitbox pretty fast and catch you off-guard.
Plus I don't think his feet are vulnerable, I ran under him predicting his landing and got tagged anyway

 

[Angiance]

F.Smash to catch a read landing, or dash under them as they're in the air

 

[Empire~]

dash under -> upsmash

 

[Megamang]

Lots of Tjolt, hang out in his blind spots (diagonal up with tjolts). Dtilt is a good tool, its fast and damaging enough to almost always be useful IMO. Try and strike/pick to a smaller stage if possible IMO, less aura is always better for us...

 

[Angiance]

A lucario can bust right through a T.Jolt with AS and hit us, I don't recommend T.Jolting much

 

[Megamang]

Ok, don't tjolt against a fully charged AS then land on it directly.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm so frustrated by this MU. I can't gimp him and once he reaches like 130% he is god mode and i can't get close. This thread has still yet to talk about an actual approach that works on lucario with aura. Between his side special and AS I can't get close to him and then he just snipes me, and no you cannot run under him while he is charging AS. Quick attack feels useless against his AS charge. Does anyone actually know how this MU works? Or are we just going to repeat useless things like "he can't touch us" ?

 

[DeaDea]

Why can't you gimp him? His recovery is very gimp-able.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Why can't you gimp him? His recovery is very gimp-able.

I don't understand how to gimp a lucario, he recovers from so far away, what do I do? He would recover to the ledge and I couldn't time a back air or a thunder to cover it....

 

[RunawayPanda]

I don't understand how to gimp a lucario, he recovers from so far away, what do I do? He would recover to the ledge and I couldn't time a back air or a thunder to cover it....

You answered your own question, you use bair and thunder to cover the recovery. You just have to get the timing down. Maybe even a dair or nair could cover the recovery. His recovery reaches pretty far, but if you catch his jump, he'll have to keep going, so just read whether he's going high or low on his recovery.

 

[DeltaForce]

It really depends on how the Lucario recovers, if he decides to to go a high recovery, low recovery, or horizontal. If you want to cover some of his options the best way to do it is to see if he snaps ledge or not. If he snaps ledge then you can always go for a thunderspike 2 frame (it is easier then it sounds) or just throw a thunder to 2 frame him. A run off bair can also work if you can time it but there is a danger of a bad trade with extreme speed so it is always best to be cautious. Edgeguards don't always consist of gimps, you can always just aim to build extra damage getting a trump, fake it, to gain some extra damage and time. Or you can guess the getup and do a nair oos.

Or you can be a freaking ESAM......

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

thanks guys for the advise, i now just try cover the high and medium recoveries and condition the lucario to got to ledge since a fresh Dair can kill at ledge and covers jump,attack and normal get up. since my original post I have actually gotten super consistent at jab locks with pika, now getting the kill isn't as difficult. I honestly hate this character due to how volatile he is. It always feels very 1st stock oriented.

 

[DeltaForce]

One effective edgeguard trap I enjoy using is a drop down bair for covering a weak recovery, jump, or 2 frame. If I miss which is usually the case if I hit it I try to go for the stage spike and if it goes outward towards the blastzone I cover differently in varying situations. If I miss I will space a jump up thunder for a hasty opponent trying to get a reverse edgeguard. If I miss there is little risk if I get the thunder hit I could possibly get a follow-up, and I get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when I get the drag down thunder to stage spike for the kill. Make sure to mix up the timing and get creative, Pika is one of the best characters in edgeguarding.

PS Don't go for thunder edgeguards against character with a reflector or projectile remover of any kind (or at least be cautious and try to throw out safe thunders)

 

[Simperheve]

To sum the MU up in one sentence: Kill quickly, or be killed quickly

It's important to know (especially in this MU) when specific kill setups come into play (Dtilt -> Jablock starts from 83%, Uthrow -> Turnaround Thunder 111%-160%) as you need to kill Lucario as quickly as possible. Fortunately you also have Lucario's -ish frame data and exploitable recovery on your side too. B-reversed Thunder will cover the ledge for a long time but won't really help you kill. Laying a Thunder Jolt onto the edge allows you to disrupt Lucarios Up B and then go down to him with Bair/Nair. If the Lucario is fairly handy with teching, don't try to get the stage spike and opt to push him out instead.

 

[DeltaForce]

Well, even professional Lucario Mains can mess up their recovery sometimes, like Day did in super smash con against Marsss I think. My point being that pressure makes mistakes and could give possible stocks or just free damage. I am not saying we should rely on edge guarding but a good Pikachu main should always be aware of it.

With Lucario like you said Killing is the deciding factor in the MU if you kill Lucario before he can kill you then you will win the match. But if you can't net the kill then Lucario will be at the point where he is a point where Pikachu struggles to kill and he is at max arua, if it gets to this you are probably screwed. Best ways to avoid this are prattfalls, jablocks, RAR thunder, FF Fair to upsmash, and edgeguards. An early stock is instumental to this MU.

Overall I would say 55:45 Lucario favor