Sonic Matchup Spread Speculation

[GabPR]

Yeah, I'm unconvinced too, but am willing to call it off now. I said all my points, I heard yours, and they were valid, but there's nothing really left to say. Do you have any more videos of it on your channel I could watch? I watched a couple already with Royal-X I think.

Of the Zard matchup only this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imxt193iAgA but both this one and the Royal X arent good references, since the first one Im vastly better in skill and the second one is lagfi.

 

[NyTR0]

One thing I will never understand is how Sonic loses to spacies. I've never had a hard time against a spacie. In fact, I'm a spacie slayer. I just don't see what's so bad and lemme tell ya, I've gonna against plenty of good spacie players. Idk, man... Seems like a walk in the park to me. Only times I do bad against them is when I SD and lose my momentum. That's just me though...

 

[_Chrome]

In all honesty, I don't think Sonic is bad against spacies. He punishes them pretty hard. The match-up becomes a whole lot easier if they don't crouch cancel, vary their recovery or DI the throws properly.

 

[Vultron]

One thing I will never understand is how Sonic loses to spacies. I've never had a hard time against a spacie. In fact, I'm a spacie slayer. I just don't see what's so bad and lemme tell ya, I've gonna against plenty of good spacie players. Idk, man... Seems like a walk in the park to me. Only times I do bad against them is when I SD and lose my momentum. That's just me though...

In all honesty, I don't think Sonic is bad against spacies. He punishes them pretty hard. The match-up becomes a whole lot easier if they don't crouch cancel, vary their recovery or DI the throws properly.

Both of these come down to have a punish game on point.

On a different topic, I find the Bowser matchup to be even, rather than advantageous. Does anyone disagree? What are your thoughts?

 

[JFyst]

60:40

50:50

40:60

unsure


I'm not unfamiliar with Kirby or Link, but I don't play against any decent Kirby player, and since everyone else struggle with him there must be a reason, As for Link, The Link I regularly play with destroys me, but he's a much better player then I am, when I play other links I have no issues with them. The other two I haven't played against. In my opinion Sonic's problem match-up wise is that he struggles with melee which is probably the current most relevant characters. If you have any questions on why I placed what, where, please let me know, I'll try and explain.

 

[Dandy_here]

I saw you put Ike as a 5:5 mu, as a an Ike and sonic dual main, I wan't to hear the reason behind this as I find Sonic is far to fast for Ike's slow aerials.

 

[GabPR]

I saw you put Ike as a 5:5 mu, as a an Ike and sonic dual main, I wan't to hear the reason behind this as I find Sonic is far to fast for Ike's slow aerials.

Ike has fast aerials like bair and nair, the latter covering a good ammount of distance to stop incoming aproaches. His edgeguard game is also pretty effective against Sonic compared to other characters at covering sweetspot recoveries and the like. His quickdraw also acts as a good burst movement option As well as fast attacks out of it.

 

[Ariyo]

Guess I'll give my matchup spread a shot. Though it seems the majority agrees on most matchups.

60:40


50:50


40:60


Heavily stage dependent

 

[_Chrome]

Even though I don't play as Sonic, I love and watch your boards because they have nice discussions! I think he's a fun and well-designed character, so here goes:

Advantageous:


Not sure whether Advantageous or Even:


Even:


Not sure whether Even or Disadvantageous:


Disadvantageous:


Not sure:


Merci beaucoup, mes amis.

 

[GabPR]

Both of these come down to have a punish game on point.

On a different topic, I find the Bowser matchup to be even, rather than advantageous. Does anyone disagree? What are your thoughts?

In my own opinion, as long as you ban small stages (normal 3 ban format mostly lets you do it) Bowser is ar a disadcantage vs Sonic.

Even though I don't play as Sonic, I love and watch your boards because they have nice discussions! I think he's a fun and well-designed character, so here goes:

Advantageous:


Not sure whether Advantageous or Even:


Even:


Not sure whether Even or Disadvantageous:


Disadvantageous:


Not sure:


Merci beaucoup, mes amis.

Im most curious on your luigi placing as an advantageous matchup. I would like your opinion on that one.

 

[Solharath]

Gonna mark certain matchups with + or - within their own groups. + denotes when Sonic has an easier time then others in that group, - when he has a worse time. An asterisk means stage dependent.
They're always marked to the right, i.e. *

65:35

60:40
* *-

50:50
*+*---*
40:60
++-+-

S'bout how I see it.

 

[GabPR]

Gonna mark certain matchups with + or - within their own groups. + denotes when Sonic has an easier time then others in that group, - when he has a worse time. An asterisk means stage dependent.
They're always marked to the right, i.e. *

65:35

60:40
* *-

50:50
*+*---*
40:60
++-+-

S'bout how I see it.

O let me see if I understand, peach is in the 50:50 area and she has a - sign, does that mean that she would be around the 45:55 area? if so I would like to view your opinions on the Snake matchup and why you believe him to be advantegous for Sonic? I personally Believe he is in the 40:60 area since he has a pretty good recovery to counteract many of Sonic's edgeguard tools like up b to stop spring and grabbing a nade whenever Sonic might attempt something like a bair, in which case both explode. Snake also has lot of stage control tools to limit Sonic's movement options in neutral with mines, nades, tranq, usmash and c4. While Snake does not have the best of times on approaching if he manages to land a sticky then Sonic is not safe to move anywhere (plus due to lightweight he dies early off c4 combos.) Up b also serves as a good tool to get out of shield pressure situations and plant c4's.

 

[Solharath]

Peach and Sonic is an even matchup, sure, but Peach has to stick to her tried and true playstyle with minimal effort to stuff Sonic's bread and butter everything, but Sonic just has the neutral down here and doesn't have to work hard to avoid HER, but the entire battle is a lot more work to get ahead. He has to play by her rules and she dictates the pace of the match, but he has the tools to play by them, but overall it's coming down to stray hits and nothing else.

Snake... the thing is that the nades and mines are more my plaything than Snake's at times. Proper spacing of your aerials(and knowing your angles and speed) really allow you to stop eating 'nades all the time, and while Snake's recovery does limit what you can do, properly spaced Fair still works(and connects with the meteor!), and I like to come at him from below anyway. Once he goes below the stage, just moonwalk, short hop, and wait for the DJ>UpB, position yourself with your own double jump and bair him. Best he can do is nair you at that point, and then you just SDI away and spring to safety. When Mines are down I know which throws will send him where he doesn't want to go, and the influence of a Snake's DI - so it allows for easy reads and followups. If a mine is in my way, I just slide into it from a Dash and WD OoS back out, or wherever I wanna be.

A good mash counteracts a tranq, and if you get stuck, well, usually I don't let it affect me. I know what he wants at that point, so I just poke him where I can and put him off stage. Snake's LOVE to use a sticky to screw up an opponent's edgeguard. If you go off stage, just be on point with waiting for your DI and stagetech and then continue the edgeguard.

I mean, thanks to backthrow, you still can grab Snake for free even when he does pull a 'nade. I'm usually in the air myself and, when looking for tranqs, I like to hop my SideB's around Snake.

Just be patient around Snake. You don't have to go in if you don't want to - if he puts a C4 and a mine and a grenade where you don't like, sit somewhere for a minute if you have to - he's going to have to make a move first. Jump at him without an aerial when he's in the air and bait out the grenade pull and punish what he does afterwards. Snake is a technical and creative character - do the same back at him.

 

[GabPR]

Peach and Sonic is an even matchup, sure, but Peach has to stick to her tried and true playstyle with minimal effort to stuff Sonic's bread and butter everything, but Sonic just has the neutral down here and doesn't have to work hard to avoid HER, but the entire battle is a lot more work to get ahead. He has to play by her rules and she dictates the pace of the match, but he has the tools to play by them, but overall it's coming down to stray hits and nothing else.

Snake... the thing is that the nades and mines are more my plaything than Snake's at times. Proper spacing of your aerials(and knowing your angles and speed) really allow you to stop eating 'nades all the time, and while Snake's recovery does limit what you can do, properly spaced Fair still works(and connects with the meteor!), and I like to come at him from below anyway. Once he goes below the stage, just moonwalk, short hop, and wait for the DJ>UpB, position yourself with your own double jump and bair him. Best he can do is nair you at that point, and then you just SDI away and spring to safety. When Mines are down I know which throws will send him where he doesn't want to go, and the influence of a Snake's DI - so it allows for easy reads and followups. If a mine is in my way, I just slide into it from a Dash and WD OoS back out, or wherever I wanna be.

A good mash counteracts a tranq, and if you get stuck, well, usually I don't let it affect me. I know what he wants at that point, so I just poke him where I can and put him off stage. Snake's LOVE to use a sticky to screw up an opponent's edgeguard. If you go off stage, just be on point with waiting for your DI and stagetech and then continue the edgeguard.

I mean, thanks to backthrow, you still can grab Snake for free even when he does pull a 'nade. I'm usually in the air myself and, when looking for tranqs, I like to hop my SideB's around Snake.

Just be patient around Snake. You don't have to go in if you don't want to - if he puts a C4 and a mine and a grenade where you don't like, sit somewhere for a minute if you have to - he's going to have to make a move first. Jump at him without an aerial when he's in the air and bait out the grenade pull and punish what he does afterwards. Snake is a technical and creative character - do the same back at him.

I like your ideas for edgeguarding snake, as far as onstage play goes I also agree entirely that patience is key. But it wouldnt be that much a problem to do those things if nade was the only thing to worry about, the main problem one faces vs Snake is his up b oos.

Up b Is fast, can be done after nade and shield, can be done immidietly to counter Sonic's side b or down b shield hit, can land sticky, and overall can be pretty difficult to counter at times. While not imposible, it certainly does remove options for Sonic, especially his main pressure tools like side b, and once snake sets his explosives out he can camp you out with nades at a distance. If you aproach him from the air, he can grab nade, shield and/or up b, so empty aerials should be used with more precaution. Grounded options are also limited with a set mine, so high priority is to avoid him setting up, which can be difficult to do with his defensive options.

 

[MWEX]

Sonic does not beat fox, end of discussion.

 

[JFyst]

The thing with fox is we have all sorts of nasty tricks on fox, but the difference is we really have to work hard to get anything started, even edgeguarding is difficult, because of fox's various options and overall stupid recovery. Fox has very simple ways to take our stocks, he wins in neutral, his lasers force approach and racks up very quick percent. Sonic's linear ass recovery makes for easy shine spikes. He gets almost guarenteed follow ups into arials off grabs, 2 of which can be kill moves (yes, you can SDI up-air but that doesn't make it any less dumb) up smash is a pain to deal with since almost anything can combo into it, including shine.

 

[Star ☆]

The contrast between edgeguarding the spacies is interesting the say the least.


Wolf is the fastest faller so he gets absolutely demolished by Somersault and can be pulled offstage incredibly easy, however he doesn't stall for as long during his Up B and has a different recovery option in his Side B so Homing Attack gimps aren't as strong.


Falco has the worst recovery so once you get him offstage its an easy Homing Attack as Falco can't afford to mix up his recovery too much lest he falls short of the ledge, the problem innately here is that Falco has his lasers and high priority aerials, meaning its harder to pull him offstage in the first place. (Go to a stage with platforms and land aerials off platforms to get him offstage)


Fox is somewhat in the middle as he is the slowest faller out of the three and has the best recovery as well so edgeguarding him is much harder as he has the leeway to mixup his recovery (Eg. backflip to avoid HA then Illusion or fall low, wall jump then airdodge). However I find him the easiest to intercept onstage with the hop version of Somersault and then either JC grab or Baseball slide.

Honestly I think they're all pretty even in terms of how Sonic deals with the three of them and its just knowing what your best options are that will help you win the match. I'm going to post what I think the matchup spread is as soon as I can.

 

[Star ☆]

Here is my matchup spread, ask me any questions if you are interested in my thoughts. As with Solharath's list, an asterisk* to the right denotes that the matchup is heavily stage dependent.

EDIT: UPDATED LIST FURTHER DOWN THE PAGE

Spoiler: Old List November 2015

UPDATED FOR 3.6 FULL 09/11/15


60:40
**

55:45
*

50:50


45:55
**

40:60
*

Some of these I'm not 100% sure on but for the most part I'm very confident in this list. Let me know what you think.

 

[DrugsM2]

Heres mine

50:50


10:90

 

[Vultron]

Heres mine

50:50


10:90

Are you just too slow in Sonic dittos?

 

[DrugsM2]

Are you just too slow in Sonic dittos?

Sonic just bodies the **** out of himself, most volatile matchup ever

 

[Getsafe]

Zelda kinda sucks so I expect this MU to be in Sonic's favour.

I know I'm a few months late on this response but Zelda's actually pretty good and totally wrecks sonic btw

 

[Duum]

I've noticed a lot of people have put kirby as an disadvantageous matchup. Any reasons why? I've never played a kirby and thought that Sonic had any real disadvantage

 

[Vultron]

I've noticed a lot of people have put kirby as an disadvantageous matchup. Any reasons why? I've never played a kirby and thought that Sonic had any real disadvantage

Edge guarding is one of Sonic's strengths, and Kirby can get around it without much trouble.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I know I'm a few months late on this response but Zelda's actually pretty good and totally wrecks sonic btw

I'd like to know your reasoning behind this. I have no actual MU experience but I always found Zelda really easy to play around.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Here is my matchup spread, ask me any questions if you are interested in my thoughts. As with Solharath's list, an asterisk* to the right denotes that the matchup is heavily stage dependent.

UPDATED FOR 3.6 BETA 28/06/15

70:30


60:40
**

55:45
***

50:50


45:55
***

40:60
*

Some of these I'm not 100% sure on but for the most part I'm very confident in this list. Let me know what you think. Just reading over this list only solidifies my belief that Ike is a fantastic secondary for Sonic because he performs well against some of Sonic's more struggling matchups. You should all consider picking him up.

What were the changes you made to this list? This mostly all looks pretty good to me, but I'd like to know what you thought changed.

 

[Star ☆]

What were the changes you made to this list? This mostly all looks pretty good to me, but I'd like to know what you thought changed.

Just a couple of preliminary changes, I moved Pit, Olimar and Metaknight around. Same with Bowser and Toon Link.

 

[Getsafe]

I'd like to know your reasoning behind this. I have no actual MU experience but I always found Zelda really easy to play around.

It really depends on the play style of the sonic. If sonic is super aggro it's ridiculously easy.

She has a ridiculous punish game and can stuff his approach with moves that lead into it very easily. Dins fire on the ground limits his ground movement which is really his only advantage. Once he's in the air it's over

Plus his edge game doesn't really work on her at all (Uair juggles/top kills are a big threat to her though)

If sonic plays really campy it comes down to who loses patience first. She can lob Dins across the stage all day and he can just shield clang it and it's a lame stalemate. But most sonics seem to rushdown which is exactly what a good Zelda wants you to do.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

It really depends on the play style of the sonic. If sonic is super aggro it's ridiculously easy... But most sonics seem to rushdown which is exactly what a good Zelda wants you to do.

That's true, and remains true for a lot of characters against Zelda. She's passive aggressive, and can't force neutral, so she waits for the opponent to make a mistake and pounce on the opening. For me, once you understand that a Zelda wants you to rush in, you can play around this, and what she does becomes a little predictable. Honestly, I think that her design makes her one of the weaker characters by default.

 

[NyTR0]

For me, once you understand that a Zelda wants you to rush in, you can play around this, and what she does becomes a little predictable. Honestly, I think that her design makes her one of the weaker characters by default.

Got to it before I did.

 

[jtm94]

I've played the Zelda vs Sonic MU more than any other, next to GnW vs Sonic and Sheik vs Sonic.

Zelda vs Sonic is extremely bad for Zelda when played optimally and that is what should be taken into account. Zelda can't approach, Zelda can't do anything. You dash dance camp her and she folds and is forced to approach with nairs and land cancel nayrus or dash attack. If Sonic wants to spin willy nilly then of course he will be kicked for unsafe approaches and just jumping at her without abusing why his movement is good.

GnW vs Sonic doesn't feel THAT amazing for similar reasons to Zelda, just less so. GnW has slow moves out of shield which hurts, but frame 3 UpB is still a thing despite it losing to good spacing. I get a lot of mileage if Sonic decides to run into my moves, but there is definitely counterplay. I can see how it could feel difficult to get in on GnW, I would suggest playing the bait and punish game in this MU as well. Make GnW do unsafe aerials then grab him in endlgag into upthrow > uair/fair/whatever you feel like.

Sheik vs Sonic doesn't feel bad mainly because land cancelled needles mess with his movement and you can intercept his recovery much more easily than past versions. Sheik is advanced dead when she ends up off stage. I think this MU might be significantly harder now with the backthrow/downthrow changes combined with the meteor cancel buffs. Sheik has a hard time forcing interactions with Sonic because none of her moves cover quite enough space to corner him and low aerial mobility makes jumping a huge commitment.

I recently picked up Toon Link because why not. This character actually feels good against Sonic. He is much more manageable I can throw meaningful hitboxes at him and trap his recovery even when he hasn't exhausted all of his options. Dash attack being disjointed as well as the tether grab make Sonic easier to interact with and stuff bad approaches and Sonic has few ways down against uairs and boomerangs. Tink can also escape some juggles via AGT up bomb throw down and down air.

 

[Hoax]

A thread for different players to speculate on the different matchups sonic has across the board. I will post my own list on how he fares against the cast and everyone can speculate with their own. The ones with (?) besides them are the ones I'm not entirely sure.

60:40

• 
• (?)

50:50

• 
• (?)

40:60

• 

I thought that Mario always had an advantage over sonic imo

 

[Star ☆]

Mmmk so it's been a while so I thought I'd update my matchup spread as we enter 2016. For the most part, each matchup spread tier is ordered from easiest to hardest matchup.

Current List as of 4th of January 2016

Very Strong Advantage


Strong Advantage


Slight Advantage


Even


Slight Disadvantage


Strong Disadvantage


Very Strong Disadvantage


Just ask me if you have any questions regarding my thoughts on each character's placement. Like all tier lists/matchup spreads, the placements here assume perfect matchup knowledge from both sides.

 

[_Chrome]

Interesting. I forgot to consider how it's tomorrow over there, and yesterday over here 0.O. Also, maybe I'm being selfish but I'd like to analyze the Sonic-MK matchup with y'all, if I may request.

 

[GabPR]

In my experience Sonic wrecks heavies. Bowser specifically imo is one of Sonic's best match ups atm. The reasons being Sonic can bait Bowser into comitting more easily than most other characters in the game, Bowser is severly limited in the matchup due to how many of his movers are unsafe, Since sonic can quickly go over him and cross him up or just bait and hrab (Which at this point you can upthrow dair string for days). The only posible way that I could consider this even is if he counterpicks a small stage, but thats only 1 match in 3 games and Sonic can still able to out manuever him. What are your reasons for considering him to be even to Sonic? Star ☆

 

[Star ☆]

In my experience Sonic wrecks heavies. Bowser specifically imo is one of Sonic's best match ups atm. The reasons being Sonic can bait Bowser into comitting more easily than most other characters in the game, Bowser is severly limited in the matchup due to how many of his movers are unsafe, Since sonic can quickly go over him and cross him up or just bait and hrab (Which at this point you can upthrow dair string for days). The only posible way that I could consider this even is if he counterpicks a small stage, but thats only 1 match in 3 games and Sonic can still able to out manuever him. What are your reasons for considering him to be even to Sonic? Star ☆

Prior to 3.6 I believed this matchup to be disadvantageous for Sonic mainly due to Bowser's armour; Bowser loves to trade and Sonic hates it. This is less accentuated in 3.6 because of the armour reductions but he still has tools to pressure Sonic when he approaches. Out of throws his nair is an amazing combo breaker and can lead into edgeguards. His up B OoS is very powerful and can kill Sonic off the top with ease. Flamebreath is fairly useful for walling Sonic out as well.

To be quite honest, I don't have too much experience in the matchup and I haven't fought a good Bowser in months. Perhaps if I do again sometime in the future my opinions will change.

 

[jtm94]

My partner doesn't like Marth for Sonic, what are you thoughts on it?

Also we have a good Bowser in our play group and he doesn't particularly like facing Sonic with Bowser, but at the same time my partner hates facing Bowser with Sonic. I guess it isn't fun for either side because Bowser has to be safe, and Sonic doesn't want to run into randy nairs or UpB oos.

 

[GabPR]

My partner doesn't like Marth for Sonic, what are you thoughts on it?

Also we have a good Bowser in our play group and he doesn't particularly like facing Sonic with Bowser, but at the same time my partner hates facing Bowser with Sonic. I guess it isn't fun for either side because Bowser has to be safe, and Sonic doesn't want to run into randy nairs or UpB oos.

Marth vs Sonic imo is one of the most highly arguable MU atm for Sonic Community.

They both have a lot of stuff going for them, In Marth's case he can stuff various of Sonic's approaches with his sword, but at the same time he does not have any lingering hitboxes, which can give Sonic more room to get in and bait stuff. Having no lingering hitboxes also means that b move aproaches are much more effective, down b for example is relatively hard to react to at max speed, so Marth needs to time his move almost perfectly in order to intercept, and that includes accounting for potential down b cancels and jumps (this may be the defining point in the matchup).

Punish game wise Marth is combo food for Sonic, especially if he lands a grab for upthrow shenanigans. Marth also has a relatively good combo game on Sonic, good enough he can kill Sonic at earlier percents if he lands a setup into tipper, but he still suffers from Marthrithis (hard to kill at high percents. Edgeguard wise spring-dair to ledge is just frikin letal, covers a lot of options and does not leave room to recover, since even if you avoid spring you can just let go and bair with invincibility frames to back it up (From what ive seen Nobody uses that except me though, In that case Sonic has an ok edgeguard against Marth). Marth has good options to cover Sonic's spring recoveries, he needs to watch out for potential mixups but his edgeguard is not bad, especially if he simply grabs ledge and dair when Sonic is forced to use spring. In my own experience I would say Marth-Sonic is 40-60 in favor of Sonic.

 

[Smolder]

Hey, guys. I may not be a Sonic main, but I would actually like to hear Sonic's side of the story on the Sonic/Roy MU. I personally can't seem to figure out this MU and I'd like to know what you guys think of it.

 

[MWEX]

Sonic wins, heavily.