sonic+diddy tips please

[bushaheen]

whenever i go against sonic or diddy kong i always feel limited by their spin dash/banana and i feel like i dont know the best ways to beat these moves (i know a little bit of ways but i still feel limited and i really want to know all the things (yes every single thing) i can do to beat these moves so that i dont feel as limited when im against them) now here are some of the common situations in these MU

vs sonic:whenever he spin dashes i feel like i know he will do that but i feel i dont know (not cant) how to punish it all i do is either shield which dosent help much or fire which is good but i feel limited since thats all i do to beat them and i know there are other ways to beat spin dash but i feel they dont work like whenever i try to attack it seems like his spin dash comes at the perfect time where the attack just ended and is still on lag and i feel this happen all the time and or i feel like the spin dash straight out wins and when my attacks finally connect it always seems to clink there are very little situations where my moves actually win and i know for a fact that bowser moves have invincibility but i still cant hit him out of it anyways. but i am learning how to deal with it slowly but i still would like some in depth tips since i lost to a sonic at tournament and i feel like i didnt know (not cant) how to deal with sonic and i dont want that to happen again.


vs diddy:whenever diddy has a banana all i feel i can do is shield i feel like anything else is beated by the banana all i do against a diddy is maybe try to hit him before he gets his banana out or shield or full hop (which is a bad option) and maybe fire. like whenever the diddy player is going on the offense with a banana in his hand i dont know what to do other than shield or full hop or fire so i only know how to deal with diddys banana if the player is going on the defense.also i always hear that diddy dosent have a good recovery and i dont know how to edge guard that so i need help in that.



i know for a fact that these MU arent terrible for bowser since i also struggle against these characters while using other characters so i would like some tips if possible and also keep on mind that im not terrible at these MU like how i made it seem i just feel limited and know that i have more options but i feel like they all dont work and know that all i need are some tips in what other options i can use and when i can use them and these MU will be easier than ever

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Sonic and Diddy.....I don't actually practice against them too much, but I'll try to give some advice.

Sonic doesn't have a lot of weaknesses. Most of his moves don't have endlag that we can punish well so don't beat yourself up if you are having trouble doing so. If you can get him off stage, keep an eye out for his spring jump because its very predictable. OoS Fortress is great for punishing his aerials.

As for Diddy, there's one thing you do with that banana - YOU PICK IT UP AND YOU CHUCK IT BACK. When you have the banana, you have POWER. UNLIMITEEEEED....POWER. Not really, but it does prevent Diddy from spawning another banana, and you can use it to mess with his momentum. As for his recovery, it can be tricky to learn the timing but once you get if down, its quite easy - I once 0-death'd a Diddy in one move, by F-tilting his backpack and then watching him fall.

 

[bushaheen]

Sonic and Diddy.....I don't actually practice against them too much, but I'll try to give some advice.

Sonic doesn't have a lot of weaknesses. Most of his moves don't have endlag that we can punish well so don't beat yourself up if you are having trouble doing so. If you can get him off stage, keep an eye out for his spring jump because its very predictable. OoS Fortress is great for punishing his aerials.

As for Diddy, there's one thing you do with that banana - YOU PICK IT UP AND YOU CHUCK IT BACK. When you have the banana, you have POWER. UNLIMITEEEEED....POWER. Not really, but it does prevent Diddy from spawning another banana, and you can use it to mess with his momentum. As for his recovery, it can be tricky to learn the timing but once you get if down, its quite easy - I once 0-death'd a Diddy in one move, by F-tilting his backpack and then watching him fall.

ok thanks for the tips but what about sonic spin dash? i know when he will use it but i dont know what to do to punish it i want to know all the options the hard read ones where im 100% sure he will spin dash and the safe one that i can use if i think there is a chance he will spin dash and dont want to risk anything

 

[BarSoapSoup]

ok thanks for the tips but what about sonic spin dash? i know when he will use it but i dont know what to do to punish it i want to know all the options the hard read ones where im 100% sure he will spin dash and the safe one that i can use if i think there is a chance he will spin dash and dont want to risk anything

I only challenged it once, to be fair. Sonic player was spamming Spin Dashes, came from behind me with another and I Klaw'd him for a Flying Slam. I can't guarantee you'll be successful with it.

Practice against Level 8 Sonics and Diddys until you feel you can overcome your weaknesses in those MUs and three-stock them.

 

[bushaheen]

I only challenged it once, to be fair. Sonic player was spamming Spin Dashes, came from behind me with another and I Klaw'd him for a Flying Slam. I can't guarantee you'll be successful with it.

Practice against Level 8 Sonics and Diddys until you feel you can overcome your weaknesses in those MUs and three-stock them.

level 8 cpu? those things are completely different from humans for many reasons i wont explain. the main thing here is sonic spin dash i know for a fact that it dosent have much priority and the best way to deal with it is to challenge it with long range moves and bowser has plenty of those. i will try to practice the timing of punishing those moves with my brother but i need 1 question answered and that is what moves is best used to challenge spin dash and when to use what move (for example if im 100% sure he will spin dash i can f-smash him in the face but what about his other moves and what times are best to use them i would like you to give me a situation for every move i can use to challenge spin dash maybe i can jab if he were close and d-tilt if he is far and shield if i want a safe option but i know there is more than that and i just dont know it yet and instead of testing them in a real match situations i want some advice from you or someone else)

 

[BarSoapSoup]

level 8 cpu? those things are completely different from humans for many reasons i wont explain. the main thing here is sonic spin dash i know for a fact that it dosent have much priority and the best way to deal with it is to challenge it with long range moves and bowser has plenty of those. i will try to practice the timing of punishing those moves with my brother but i need 1 question answered and that is what moves is best used to challenge spin dash and when to use what move (for example if im 100% sure he will spin dash i can f-smash him in the face but what about his other moves and what times are best to use them i would like you to give me a situation for every move i can use to challenge spin dash maybe i can jab if he were close and d-tilt if he is far and shield if i want a safe option but i know there is more than that and i just dont know it yet and instead of testing them in a real match situations i want some advice from you or someone else)

That was what was recommended to me by MagiusNecros and some of the other Bowser mains. You're having trouble with one of Sonic's staple moves and that's what CPUs are for - learning how to deal with moves like that on a basic level. Level 9s are for learning fundamentals and Level 8s help with matchups. Bowser has a lot of long-range moves? Um...no. Fire Breath is the closest thing Bowser has to a ranged attack and it requires such precise timing that you can get punished really bad for it. If you mean long-range as in far-reaching, then fine, Bowser has a few tools that can reach a decent distance, but he doesn't have any projectiles to break spin dashes easily.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Fortress clanks with spin dash all of the time. Doesn't require any specific sense of timing either. The only problem is what happens after the clank. Neither character has any sort of advantage and is at punching distance. That's where our higher startup can betray us.

There's some good you can get out of an Usmash when it comes to countering spin dash. Shell guard lets us be completely immune to the various hits and mixups Sonic is capable of after connecting. And it also deals a massive 20% damage. Don't launch Usmash unless you are already fairly close (about two to three character lengths) to him as he revs up, and only if you see/hear him launch. If he doesn't take off, he's still at a point where he can pull up shield to fake you out. The burden of approach is always on Sonic. Don't assume Bowser can ever hit an opponent that moves that fast and has that many opportunities to convert movement into shields or jump. And when he launches you skyward for an Uair finish, you've got enough time to air dodge it and stay alive. It's unlikely Sonic will ever kill Bowser before 100%, so you've got room for mistakes.

With Diddy, the banana is power. Bowser can fight very well using just special moves. And there's a lot of tricks you can learn with items. Jump cancel toss, Item toss out of shield, z-drop aerials, the many ways to catch and pick them up in the first place. But remember that in all likelihood, somebody who mains a character with items is probably better than you are at all of these things. Simply keeping the banana out of diddy's hands will do you enough good. Also, try fire breath for edgeguarding if you get the chance. Right at the edge, you can singe him as he launches with monkey flip, then again as he flies upward with rocket barrel. Diddy is forced to fall a set distance whenever he's hit out of up B, so you can keep him offstage with conservative blasts of fire breath. It's easy to make mistakes with a recovery move like that, so you might gimp him entirely rather than just deal damage.

 

[Cronoc]

I've struggled with holding the banana against Diddy. Bowser being the combo-food he is, if Diddy wins the neutral while Bowser holds the banana Bowser will be likely be hit 2-3 times, and each hit carries a chance of dropping the banana. It doesn't necessarily force Diddy to approach like holding Mega Man's metal blade does to Mega Man either.

 

[Big Sean]

Not a banana expert but some things I've been learning. First bowser's item throw is slow as ****. Second, once the banana is thrown twice it disappears. This ends up meaning that if you throw a banana at a good diddy with your slow as throw, they will likely shield it, and just regrab it, making the throw completely useless. I think the best option for bowser is to throw it down or up. Down covers approaches so the diddy would be mistake do just roll behind you, dash at you etc .... Up simply delays the amount of time it's gonna take for a diddy to get a hold of a banana again which is great. If its the second throw, feel free to throw it at the diddy, just don't expect to get anything out of it.

I'm suprised it hasn't been said, but if you really want to beat spin dash every single time in a reliable way, there really is only one option. Pivot ftilt. Without pivot ftilt you really lack any tools in the neutral save for shield if you think they are spin dashing.

 

[S_B]

I've grown fond of jumping over Diddy and z-dropping the banana on him, then chasing it with an aerial or bomb.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Sonic is a very challenging MU where the majority of our options are very unsafe. In summary, almost everything you could do as mixups or spacing in the neutral against other characters are unsafe. Short hop f-airs, dashing back and forth, tilting, dash attacks, side-b, dash grabs, pivot grabs and even up-b if poorly spaced, none of these are safe in the neutral. This is a fight where you must take a very different approach from the norm and want to take your time even if the Sonic is camping.

Most Sonics will tend to either spin dash or charge up their Spin attack and pressure you heavily while knocking you skyward for some pretty painful strings. They can also spin dash cancel to try to get in front of you and grab. For this, you need to limit your options to also limit Sonic's opportunities of getting in.

For me what has worked very well is walking, shielding and jabbing. This is the safest way of fighting Sonic in the neutral. Walking is to ensure that your options are more open but also allows you to assess and react to the situation more safely. In addition to this, this is also to make jabbing easier. Jab is your friend in this MU and should be your bread and butter in the neutral.

This does not mean you jab like crazy while Sonic sits there spinning. You should walk towards Sonic and depending on the distance, either shield if you think his spin dash is too close or throw out a jab 1 to clank or outright beat the spin dash. This timing is very tight and of course if you miss, you're going to take a bit of damage. But if timed right, you and Sonic will clank which should allow you to follow up immediately with another jab. Another is to use jab1 into a grab, especially if the Sonic is shuffling back and forth himself with runs. This may allow you a chance to jab1 into a running grab. This is when you press your advantage.

Its once you have knocked Sonic off his feet that you can start running. If he goes into the air, shadow his movements from below but don't follow into the air unless you're absolutely confident you can land a f-air at a diagonal angle. A running Up-b or even a dash attack or f-air can get some good damage in. If your timing is sharp even a short hop n-air for some gross damage. Its once this gap is open you want to maintain a much tighter space between you and Sonic, giving you more options to pressure him and cause more damage. In this case, side-b and dash attacks or even up-b become valid options to rack up damage.

Gaining the kill shot can be tricky, especially if the Sonic is dash grabbing you like mad or turning up the pressure. Side-b, f-tilt or even grab release to f-tilt or d-tilt can be a good way to put an end to him. Unfortunately there is no easy way to get this but again patience is key.

Once Sonic is off-stage, there are a few options. I play a very defensive edge guard game and find fire breath an excellent way to cause serious damage. I find this is one of the crucial moments in the MU. Once he is off-stage, that's your time to get serious damage in, be it with well timed f-tilts or d-tilts or a bombardment of fire breath. In contrast, once you are off-stage, be careful of the d-air or spring. Up-b if timed right will clank with the spring allowing you to safely get back to the edge, so keep the gap tight between you and edge before doing it.

If Sonic has managed to get you airborne, never, ever waste your second jump. Keep your head even if he is juggling and attempt to land towards the end of the stage. Once you're about to crash, you can use your second jump and maybe, though high risk, go for a sneaky f-air. Most of the time if you're not trying to grab the edge, at least aim to go to the end of the stage and here, on top of saving your second jump, fire breath can be safe. In this case many Sonics may go for the homing attack in the air, so only spew out a short breath and you can counter this with an up-smash. You can also try using side-b just as you land to potentially get a quick klaw grab in but this should be used as a mixup.

Despite all this, this MU is still very much in Sonic's favour but not quite as hopeless, at least in my opinion, as some people may think. The key is patience, walk, shield, jab and not to panic even if you get caught in 3 or 4 combos and watch your landings. Sonic can play both campy or aggressive and our options in the neutral are extremely limited against him and even with the walk and shield approach, its still unsafe but its still the safest out of a whole host of options which leave us far more open.

Hope this helps and good luck.