Sonic 3.5 Discussion Likes/Dislikes/Combo Strats!

[Solharath]

Melee Top Tier. Aggressive Foxes cannot be dealt with, as Sonic no longer has an answer to nair/shine(Ftilt used to be able to poke him out of it, no longer, can only trade, which leaves Fox more often at an advantage). Falco's lasers are a complete shutdown, as both he and Fox can just jump straight up and nair if Sonic comes in high(of Falco can dair, too), or Bair. Marth just completely shuts down Sonic's approach, and Sonic's weight/fall speed just leaves him 100% susceptible to Marth's BnB.

Sheik never has to or should approach, and having such an amazing option as to instantly cancel her needles into Shield or roll lets even an aggro Sonic have a hard time getting in her face. Her hitboxes all completely beat Sonic out, but I have yet to continually experience that matchup yet - so I'm withholding on that.

Mario's still an interesting matchup, but he still outmatches Sonic on the ground and in the air, and with his quicker attacks, Sonic just has a hard time dealing with him. Mario can still control Sonic's movement and put him in disadvantageous positions far more easily than the other way around, and deal more damage per combo.

And Ike. Just... holy shnikes Ike. If you want to talk about this being a design philosophy patch, look to Ike as the elephant in the room. Giant hitboxes, a move that literally beats 90% of attempted sweetspots with 0 risk(Last hitbox of fair. Check it out on Battlefield or Smashville's edges to get a feel for it. You aren't doing it right unless 2 hitboxes or sword are sticking out of the edge). Take 2.5 Sonic's SD cancels, add in a disjointed kill hitbox, a walljump cancel, and you're on the right track to toxic gameplay. Then give it the ability to RAR, a RAR>JC, and you've made a move with less commitment and more reward than Sonic had in 2.5(Not ever, though. Hellloooooo 2.1 Sonic, how you were a broken little ball of stupid).

Melee Top Tiers that Sonic can deal with are Falcon and Jiggs, albeit those are even matchups. Peach is.... I dunno, I haven't faught a good one in 3.5 yet. I imagine it went from tricky to just plan disadvantageous, but I have nothing to draw from in that well, so I'll keep out of it.

Honestly, Sonic gained only one good matchup so far in this update, and that was Diddy. We break Diddy now. So. Um. Yeah.

 

[GabPR]

Melee Top Tier. Aggressive Foxes cannot be dealt with, as Sonic no longer has an answer to nair/shine(Ftilt used to be able to poke him out of it, no longer, can only trade, which leaves Fox more often at an advantage). Falco's lasers are a complete shutdown, as both he and Fox can just jump straight up and nair if Sonic comes in high(of Falco can dair, too), or Bair. Marth just completely shuts down Sonic's approach, and Sonic's weight/fall speed just leaves him 100% susceptible to Marth's BnB.

Sheik never has to or should approach, and having such an amazing option as to instantly cancel her needles into Shield or roll lets even an aggro Sonic have a hard time getting in her face. Her hitboxes all completely beat Sonic out, but I have yet to continually experience that matchup yet - so I'm withholding on that.

Mario's still an interesting matchup, but he still outmatches Sonic on the ground and in the air, and with his quicker attacks, Sonic just has a hard time dealing with him. Mario can still control Sonic's movement and put him in disadvantageous positions far more easily than the other way around, and deal more damage per combo.

And Ike. Just... holy shnikes Ike. If you want to talk about this being a design philosophy patch, look to Ike as the elephant in the room. Giant hitboxes, a move that literally beats 90% of attempted sweetspots with 0 risk(Last hitbox of fair. Check it out on Battlefield or Smashville's edges to get a feel for it. You aren't doing it right unless 2 hitboxes or sword are sticking out of the edge). Take 2.5 Sonic's SD cancels, add in a disjointed kill hitbox, a walljump cancel, and you're on the right track to toxic gameplay. Then give it the ability to RAR, a RAR>JC, and you've made a move with less commitment and more reward than Sonic had in 2.5(Not ever, though. Hellloooooo 2.1 Sonic, how you were a broken little ball of stupid).

Melee Top Tiers that Sonic can deal with are Falcon and Jiggs, albeit those are even matchups. Peach is.... I dunno, I haven't faught a good one in 3.5 yet. I imagine it went from tricky to just plan disadvantageous, but I have nothing to draw from in that well, so I'll keep out of it.

Honestly, Sonic gained only one good matchup so far in this update, and that was Diddy. We break Diddy now. So. Um. Yeah.

I disagree with you, not much on the matchups being disadvantegous, but saying Sonic has 0 options. That is streching it too far.

 

[Solharath]

You can disagree all you want, but I'll point you to CEO or Big House 4. Sonic had all his tools then and Wizzy still couldn't find a reliable answer to the neutral game. He was steamrolled, and there isn't a better way to put it. Your option is to run away until they over commit with an unsafe option.

Sonic's Pivot grab is so small and tied to his hands, that you shouldn't expect it to grab armor through aerial approaches - his head is too large, and will be hit with a large majority of the cast even with bad spacing. You have to pivot grab and outright miss, and in the case of Fox, his dash speed is faster than Sonic's, and only loses to Sonic in a drag race across Smashville at over half the length of it's main platform. That kind of actionless interaction isn't going to happen in a game, and USmash is going to beat pivot grab in that situation, same with SHNair.

HA is beat by nair, be it fresh or stale. Fair trades(or loses to, depending on how early in the attack it is), Bair can win, but is much slower to comparable moves of similar strength and reach... Dair is actually a nice option, but beaten by Shield, air dodge with Fox is actually pretty safe too, with his fall speed.

It's not really zero options. But there are definitely times where his options boil down to zero, given stage position even in neutral, and that is bad enough.

Sure, drag a Fox off and do your gimp. Congrats, but I guarantee Fox did something he really didn't have to to allow himself to be grabbed. There was a safer option, a shine, something, that the player themselves were either over enthused to use, or lacked the tech skill. At high levels of play, however, it just isn't there.

 

[GabPR]

Any characters options can boil down to zero when badly positioned. And I realize that Wizzrobe is one of if not the best peforming Sonic players, but using him as an excuse to say that Sonic has zero options because he was beaten in CEO and Big House should NOT be used as an excuse, since while really good he is not perfect, and he made mistakes. If people remember correctly, at the beggining of 3.0 most thought Sonic was still outclassed by most of the characters in the game. Then after a few months went by, they started to realize that he had great options. What bothers me most is that a month has not even went by with 3.5, and people are over the top positive that "he can get thrashed no options what so ever get me back 3.0 buff this buff that" mentality. Same with ALMOST EVERY OTHER CHARACTER FORUM RIGHT NOW". Now even said so yourself "Bair can win against nair, Dair can win against nair" eliminating the zero options thing, but then you discard it with saying that it is beaten by shield or air dodge? Unless Fox has this new fantastic tech that can shield or airdodge while nairing, I doubt that this one really applies.

I realize that Sonic has his disadvantages against these characters, but in NO WAY I can see this getting to a point where he is 0 to 100 or even 30 to 70 in less than MONTH of experimenting. You could say I'm overly optimistic, as I could say you are overly pessimistic.

 

[Solharath]

Come on man, you're obviously misunderstanding my point if you think that some sort of magical scenario has to exist. Think of it like a dance - if you're in a position to dair, where is Fox going to be? Likely below you. Why? He probably sent you into the air. Besides of which, unless it's early on in the dair's frames, it's actually going to lose to nair anyway.

But yes, take a moment to think of my argument logically. We have less options than we did before. We just do, nothing was added. Fox has the exact same options that he did previous, plus a buffed recovery for argument's sake. We have greater cool down, higher start up, and what-have-you. We're not talking less than a month of experimenting. We're talking over a year, and now we're working with less than we ever had before.

When our best example goes up against a highly skilled but otherwise nothing special Fox in CT Zero(He's known for his Pit, his Melee Fox can break into Top 8s, but it doesn't win anything), with more tools and options onstage, and still loses, I want you to be real with me. Note, I did face CT Zero in friendlies, and they were very close matches with nothing on the line. Sadly closer than Wizzy vs. Zero, because I at least have Foxes in my area that are styled after watching Mango and Zero and then fighting me repeatedly until they found that, it can be done, but it's an uphill battle for Sonic. Now? Now it's even harder, so my 'pessimism' is well founded.

After a year of learning in 3.0, an arguably disadvantaged matchup was changed to favor the character who was already winning the matchup. Besides, it's not like anyone is flawless, you're still going to gimp a Fox, but the more you learn how to get them off stage, the more their going to learn to combat you - after all, if they double jump and you start a HA, they can decide, "Hey, why don't I just air dodge and we both plummet?"

I want to see where your argument for optimism here stems from. Our character received nothing but a HA range buff and Bair with more growth to it. Otherwise, we're sitting on a much weaker character, and Fox is now closer to an engine where he is already the undisputed king of(20XX is pretty real).

As far as the zero options thing I said before, that was in neutral. No combat advantage, just on certain stages if you are somewhere and he is, say, standing under a platform, you have nothing on him. Short hop laser to force your approach, and then he can shffl nair if you approach from the air, or jab if you spin, or.... well, USmash, pretty much 14 years of metagame knowledge at his disposal. You have roughly a year and everything you did have is worse.

It's not unwinnable. But if you think for a moment there's some magic thing Sonic will suddenly have that makes the neutral less suffocating, more power to you. I'm not giving up myself, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[GabPR]

Sonic does have something new... and thats the fact that down b, homing and up air were nerfed and are not as safe/spammable anymore. Why do I mention this? Beacause almost every single Sonic player I have ever watched in the course of 3.0 overly depended on these 3 moves. Including you, Including me and maybe posibly even Wizzy. We ALL were dependent on these 3 moves and because of this... When 3.5 hit, it was no longer possible to play 3.0 Sonic play style anymore. The main problem arises when many people still use Sonic 3.5 as it were Sonic 3.0

In this patch we have to do recovery in a different way, do combos in a different way, and approach/space in a different way than we used to. That forces us to innovate, play smarter (not pressing our "up b" "dair" or "down b" like a panic button to reset neutral), and actually discovering new options that, although available to us in 3.0, we were not using or even realized they were there because the 3 moves I already mentioned were A LOT easier to do with less work and the same result.

if we actually use that thing called imagination (or "magic" as you would like to call it) and start practicing 3.5 Sonic INSTEAD of 3.0 Sonic, then people might actually improve the Sonic meta and he may get better in all areas, including neutral. And that makes me feel... optimistic

 

[Solharath]

I do not live in the fantasy world where our nerfed ground game is going to make the reason we were over-dependent on our special game is some sure fire thing. Talking like an enlightened user, where your path is the path of 'the better player,' is actually a trope on these boards. Walk into any thread and you'll see someone spout the same thing - that we haven't given it a chance, that there is so much more to explore.

You're not wrong, but it's something we've all heard before. We know there's more to the physics, down to the percent, that true combos can come to life. Time to find it in the lab, time to put it to use, time to set it up against perfect DI, accounting for SDI. It's not enlightenment or imagination you're selling, it's common sense, which longstanding members who have seen it all before work into our arguments. The problem is, 13+ years of metagame development has already been put into action against us, who now have to rework a year+ of muscle memory to try and combat, who now have to re-commit so many resources to finding out what can and cannot work, and the established metagame will stifle this without even trying. I'm already seeing mass exodus from characters over to the Melee elite, or to untouched/buffed 3.0 characters. Metagames that still have a chance to continue from 3.0 to develop and hold steady against better Foxes, better Falcos, and the Rest.

Unfortunately for Sonic, we've already had to make due with a ground-game based Sonic, who couldn't rely on his specials much and his name was 2.6, a character no one could make waves with because there wasn't enough water in the pool. They saw that wasn't enough already and gave him his special game back because it was unique and gave him a chance to do well. And sadly, from 2.6, we now actually have a worse ground game from that thanks to range nerfs and even worse-off specials, but hey. We have optimism.

Seriously, look how annoying it is to 'cleverly' take a shot at the person you're arguing with. It adds nothing to the argument except agitate the other person. Let's add a little levity to the argument - I totally pulled off a stealth pun earlier, so points to anyone who caught it.

Now, literally everyone around me is asking me to drop Sonic(or at least, asking me if I'm going to drop Sonic), because it's clear as day to them that he isn't worth the trouble in this patch. I'm literally sticking with him out of stubbornness and with the hope that 3.6/4.0 will bring with it a better Sonic than this, and I'll be ahead of the curve because sadly, they aren't going to fix the nerfed startup frames from here, so muscle memory has to be re-taught. I had to do this in 2.6, I'll do it here.

 

[GabPR]

For once I agree with you. The main problem is the time a character has been in development by the players. Since we were all so focused in the use of 3.0 Sonic's main specials and moves, we did not develop his other potentially useful tools, and that DOES puts us in a disadvantage against other characters that have develpoped their metagame, like Marth, Falco and Fox. THAT is the main problem.

On another note, people are actually ASKING you to drop Sonic? Man that must be annoying. And believe it or not, I get where you are coming from. Recently I entered a tournament and I went vs a player named Excel Zero. Some might know him from melee. In 3.0 days we were pretty even. We have only faced each other once in 3.5 and he beat me convincingly. And that is not what sucked the most, people around me (even people I beat) were like "I told you you could not beat him" or even worse stuff than that, even BEFORE Grand Finals even started (I got second at that tourney btw) and that stung. Talk about bullying :S. Maybe the rest of the Sonic mains are getting equal, if not worst things said than us.

But hey, we will show em, we WILL improve, and we can help each other get there. I think you and I might not be so different (besides the whole optimistic and pessimistic kind of thing)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That doesn't sound like bullying, at all. Have you ever been bullied before?

 

[Vultron]

I'm still not really feeling this patch, but it is helping me with my fundamentals. In the early days of 3.0 I was the toxic Sonic that PMDT wanted to destroy. Soon after, I actually learned what Sonic can do. Then I started playing mind games with other people and began winning games without using the same 4 moves. Now, it's literally all mind games, and if you have been playing with the same group of people for more than a month, they already know your play style and options so mind games become even harder, add on that with the nerfs, Sonic is becoming less and less of a character that is worth the effort for the same results as another character. PMDT has buffed characters that had a sudden drop-off in popularity before, let's see if they do it again.

 

[GabPR]

That doesn't sound like bullying, at all. Have you ever been bullied before?

Some have at some point, but not I was not really bullied besides elementary (but lets dace it, kids xan be jerks sometimes. .

It may not seem like bullying, like they are not physically hutring you or anything. But when people start spewing out rhings like " I knew you sucked" or "You cannot win give up" it can be a toll on a player and results in a toxic enviroment.

Now I am not sure on other peoples circumstances, and I might be misunderstanding (I apoligize if I am) but I know people can say things in an impolite bothersome, or even in an insulting fashion without realizing it, even in a simple thing such as a video game, indirectly making a player feel bad about himself, and I do not aprove of that no matter the skill level of a person.

 

[mimgrim]

I feel the need to point out that anyone who thinks/says 3.5 Sonic is bad is probably still looking through 3.02 glasses. 3.5 was a change in design for Project M and most characters got quite a few changes to them, even the lower end characters of 3.02. Thing is, Sonic still has an obnoxious design, and will always have an obnoxious design as long as they try to keep him true to his game. 3.5 Sonic is really good in the 3.5 environment, I think he is at least a top 10 character still and that he might even be top 3. He still has absolutely ridiculous mobility, good and easy combos that don't involve Down/Side Special, can actually deal out a decent to good amount of damage if done right (it isn't that hard to get the opponent from 0 to 50%+ in a single combo), decent kill power, good normals, still has a good set of Special but now isn't over-reliant on them (and c'mon, you all know that was stupid and bad to begin with and that it needed changing).

Personally I have done better with Sonic in 3.5 then any other character I've tried using.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Sonic does have something new... and thats the fact that down b, homing and up air were nerfed and are not as safe/spammable anymore. Why do I mention this? Beacause almost every single Sonic player I have ever watched in the course of 3.0 overly depended on these 3 moves. Including you, Including me and maybe posibly even Wizzy. We ALL were dependent on these 3 moves and because of this... When 3.5 hit, it was no longer possible to play 3.0 Sonic play style anymore. The main problem arises when many people still use Sonic 3.5 as it were Sonic 3.0

In this patch we have to do recovery in a different way, do combos in a different way, and approach/space in a different way than we used to. That forces us to innovate, play smarter (not pressing our "up b" "dair" or "down b" like a panic button to reset neutral), and actually discovering new options that, although available to us in 3.0, we were not using or even realized they were there because the 3 moves I already mentioned were A LOT easier to do with less work and the same result.

if we actually use that thing called imagination (or "magic" as you would like to call it) and start practicing 3.5 Sonic INSTEAD of 3.0 Sonic, then people might actually improve the Sonic meta and he may get better in all areas, including neutral. And that makes me feel... optimistic

I can easily agree with you. Although I do play him similar to 3.02 neutral game wise and combo similar and I use a few creative combos with Blast Attack.

Edit:This a similar story for 2.6 every one quit Sonic because he people said he was bad and look what @Nazo did in 2.6 he did well. If that happened at that time then it will probably happen for 3.5.

 

[mimgrim]

So basically Sonic has a cycle in Project M patches?

Sonic gets changed > at first people think Sonic is bad > someone does ridiculously good with Sonic > It's realized Sonic is still good and still had ridiculous design

Sonic - Forever doomed to be in a cycle, no matter what.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

So basically Sonic has a cycle in Project M patches?

Sonic gets changed > at first people think Sonic is bad > someone does ridiculously good with Sonic > It's realized Sonic is still good and still had ridiculous design

Sonic - Forever doomed to be in a cycle, no matter what.

Basically lol

 

[GabPR]

So basically Sonic has a cycle in Project M patches?

Sonic gets changed > at first people think Sonic is bad > someone does ridiculously good with Sonic > It's realized Sonic is still good and still had ridiculous design

Sonic - Forever doomed to be in a cycle, no matter what.

You forgot to mention gets changed again.

 

[DX.Kingz]

Well I gotta admit this has been enlightening.

The points you have all brought up are quite substantial. An further proves that Sonic is a treasured character among the smash community.

GabPR I do share your optimism for Sonic an I appreciate your outlook of, "hey, hes different now. But that just means we gotta get better and try something else." I applaud you for this, because when it comes down to life only those that make the best of their situations ever come out of it.

However, I am a realist myself. I can not argue the facts Solharath has made abundantly clear. To be frank. We already had a bad knee in the third round, but now our opponent (for all intents and purposes) has put horseshoes in his gloves.While our knee is starting to throb. The bottom line of the matter is, "Hey Sonic has lost some of his best tools, an now some other guys have even better ones. We are at a bigger disadvantage now." This is concrete we can agree. An that's depressing.

Now if I have not bored you to death now, please allow me to share this aspect with you.

I started playing this back when it came out on the n64 I'm in my 20s now. Looking back, (an to tell you the truth) I sucked at this game from the get go. I lost to everyone but the level 6 and lower cpus from 64 to melee I've struggled. An you know what made the fact even more hard? My younger brother and cousin could take me out anytime they pleased. An they were casuals! But they have a talent for fighters, that is based purely on instinct. I however was not born with this....

So with that I figured I was just bad at the game, I should just leave it for laughs. However than came the metagame. I watched those amazing melee matches and thought, "Hey, if there's that much there, maybe I can have a shot at being half decent at this." So I worked at learning it, but my brother, cousin, an various friends did as well. Soon the gap between us started to get bigger and bigger. Than Brawl stumbled in and Sonic ran up.

If there was one thing I refused to do, it was suck with the very first video-game character I ever played. Than the field got more even. I found a knack for speed. I was first to strike an set up every gimp I could come up with. Than I grew fangs of my own in project m. An since than I have practiced and practiced. I saw people like wizzy, and many others including you guys prove Sonic was no failure, no matter the build. From the all-powerful 2.5, the modest 2.6, and even the subtle 3.0

It's been proven that Sonic no matter all the crap he gets, no matter how the fan base is, no matter how hard hes nerfed. He can still come out on top, an underdog that can beat the odds every-time....If given the chance.

An that's the problem now isn't? Sonic constantly needs to be relearned as Sol has stated. An for those like myself that already have to work harder than everyone else just to keep up. The aspect loses the fun allure of a new challenge, and becomes a constant battle to just stay relevant. An to be honest with you....I'm getting quite tired. It's hard to have to start over when all your friends that were already better than you can just use the same tricks and style to beat you as before. When you are constantly hopping your not pressing homing attack too close to the edge.

I guess my point is this. Will we stop playing Sonic in pm? Not even a slim chance. Would we like for others too stop giving us grief, by finding some point where we are cheap or unfair, and taking away what little things we do have? Yes we would indeed.

But at this point I wonder. Is it due to love of the character and game that we play? Or out of our own stubborn pride?

Me?

I actually win a lot more with fox honestly nowadays...But I still have something to prove to myself. I will still play Sonic more an main him. Heck I'm stubborn too.

So Sol, I'm trudging right behind ya with two bad knees, a mouthpiece, and a gymbag full of GabPR's optimism...Just don't know how much longer I can take being treated like the school bully when all I did was keep up with the other kids on the track.

An that's my take. So whoever feels they need to. You can bring the insults, bring the cheese references, bring the flames! I don't care in the least I just wanted to share my thoughts with some like minded individuals on what I've learned here.

 

[mimgrim]

However, I am a realist myself. I can not argue the facts Solharath has made abundantly clear. To be frank. We already had a bad knee in the third round, but now our opponent (for all intents and purposes) has put horseshoes in his gloves.While our knee is starting to throb. The bottom line of the matter is, "Hey Sonic has lost some of his best tools, an now some other guys have even better ones. We are at a bigger disadvantage now." This is concrete we can agree. An that's depressing.

That's not being a realist. That's being a pessimist.

Sonic did not lose some of his best tools. They were toned down. There is a difference. And many of the other top tiers, and other characters too, had their ridiculous tools toned down as well, only exception is Fox but we should all know why that is a dangerous road to go down by now. You can still JC Side Special on the ground, being able to JC this move in the air gave him a ridiculous recovery (and it's still one of the better recoveries in 3.5 despite that), not a tool lost. Down Special doesn't combo as well at early percents and it doesn't have a hit box on turn but it is still a good combo starter at higher percents and is still able to JC it in the air and ground. Up Special is still good for following Uair juggles and you can still act out of it rather fast making it decently safe. Neutral Special? Eh, you got me there. But that's a stupidly designed move in the first place anyway, just like the character lol. He still has an absurd DD game and still has one of the best neutral games out there and his speed gives him a fantastic punish game. Sonic isn't actually that different from 3.02, he just had his too good tools toned down and isn't as reliant on his Specials anymore (seriously, if you had play 3.0 Sonic without using his Specials too much you would see that he is just a toned down version of his 3.02 self).

I feel like a broken record.

If there was one thing I refused to do, it was suck with the very first video-game character I ever played. Than the field got more even. I found a knack for speed. I was first to strike an set up every gimp I could come up with. Than I grew fangs of my own in project m. An since than I have practiced and practiced. I saw people like wizzy, and many others including you guys prove Sonic was no failure, no matter the build. From the all-powerful 2.5, the modest 2.6, and even the subtle 3.0

I wouldn't call 3.0 Sonic subtle lol.

 

[N810]

I recently uploaded a few 3.5 Sonic vids in my youtube channel, here is one vs metaknight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84kgiva3acw&list=UUkwrdW6HuuR2TSgJm0QfP1w I sometimes suicide an excesively dash attack, but overall y played decent enough I believe.

I thought you did very well. I don't know how to do the Spin-Shot or sweet spot the Side-B to catch the ledge. But I enjoyed the match as a whole. The Warioware one is really fun to watch. Great work!

 

[GabPR]

I thought you did very well. I don't know how to do the Spin-Shot or sweet spot the Side-B to catch the ledge. But I enjoyed the match as a whole. The Warioware one is really fun to watch. Great work!

To sweet spot the ledge with side b you simply go out of the ledge, then press AND hold side b into the ledge's direction. Here is a video on how to do the spinshot (it is for 3.0 and some of the applications at the end are no longer available, but the method is still the same, changes are mentioned in notations)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxXxrdvbMg

 

[N810]

It's hard to have to start over when all your friends that were already better than you can just use the same tricks and style to beat you as before.

This. I was just starting to break out in my scene and now players who I could beat and beating me in this new build. They all want me to change my main but I still think Sonic is good. It does feel hard and i have to put more work into my fights but I not giving up on Sonic.

 

[GabPR]

This. I was just starting to break out in my scene and now players who I could beat and beating me in this new build. They all want me to change my main but I still think Sonic is good. It does feel hard and i have to put more work into my fights but I not giving up on Sonic.

There are a lot of people here that can help you get better and give you advice if you ask for it. In the meantime try to watch other Sonic's to help you get new ideas and improve.

 

[N810]

There are a lot of people here that can help you get better and give you advice if you ask for it. In the meantime try to watch other Sonic's to help you get new ideas and improve.

I never used Smashboards before until 3.5 because I knew I need more than just playing practice. So I'm going to try to be active and give feedback to help myself and others. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I never used Smashboards before until 3.5 because I knew I need more than just playing practice. So I'm going to try to be active and give feedback to help myself and others. Thanks for the advice!

WiFi could help you too

 

[Vultron]

That's not being a realist. That's being a pessimist.

Sonic did not lose some of his best tools. They were toned down. There is a difference. And many of the other top tiers, and other characters too, had their ridiculous tools toned down as well, only exception is Fox but we should all know why that is a dangerous road to go down by now. You can still JC Side Special on the ground, being able to JC this move in the air gave him a ridiculous recovery (and it's still one of the better recoveries in 3.5 despite that), not a tool lost. Down Special doesn't combo as well at early percents and it doesn't have a hit box on turn but it is still a good combo starter at higher percents and is still able to JC it in the air and ground. Up Special is still good for following Uair juggles and you can still act out of it rather fast making it decently safe. Neutral Special? Eh, you got me there. But that's a stupidly designed move in the first place anyway, just like the character lol. He still has an absurd DD game and still has one of the best neutral games out there and his speed gives him a fantastic punish game. Sonic isn't actually that different from 3.02, he just had his too good tools toned down and isn't as reliant on his Specials anymore (seriously, if you had play 3.0 Sonic without using his Specials too much you would see that he is just a toned down version of his 3.02 self).

I feel like a broken record.



I wouldn't call 3.0 Sonic subtle lol.

Calling Sonic stupidly designed, especially on be Sonic boards is a pretty good way to get nobody to listen to you.

I'm going to assume that you're not much of a sonic player yourself, so you probably don't understand how much if a difference the nerfs make in Sonic's timing, that a lot of us have had down to the frame since 3.0 came out. PMDT removed our actual tools and gave us the playskool equivalent of some of them, and threw the others in the dark abyss known as time out. Just because they are still there doesn't mean they did not take away what was good.

 

[mimgrim]

Sonic is a character with stupid design though. Not being able to realize this, Sonic player or no, is ignorance. He will always have stupid design as long as they try to keep him true to his games.

I didn't play Sonic much in 3.02 because he didn't feel that good to use. Have been using him quite a bit in 3.5 though because he feels good now.

So you have to relearn timings. You aren't the only player of a character having to relearn things. Get over it.

And again his tools were NOT removed, aside from maybe Neutral Special but that still has it's occasional use and that is a stupid move anyway and the only way to balance it out is to make it incredibly bad, they were just toned down as I've already said and explained how. Saying they are removed is a big fat lie. Stop acting like he can't do anything with his Specials anymore, because the opposite is true. You can still JC Dspecial on the ground or air and can still combo out of it at mid and high percents. But no because it no longer has a hitbox on turning the move is now so very ruined. Sspecial is still JCable on the ground and still gives good mix-ups on the ground. But no because the move is no long JCable in the air, which made his recovery obnoxious, it is now ruined let's all forget the Dspecial is still JCable in the air. Uspecial is still a good move because you can still follow up Uair juggles with it and still act out of it pretty fast making it decently safe recovering. The only one that is mostly useless now is Nspecial, but c'mon that's a stupid move in the first place that really should be replaced with something else but until then the only way to balance it is to make it a bad move.

 

[GabPR]

Sonic is a character with stupid design though. Not being able to realize this, Sonic player or no, is ignorance. He will always have stupid design as long as they try to keep him true to his games.

I didn't play Sonic much in 3.02 because he didn't feel that good to use. Have been using him quite a bit in 3.5 though because he feels good now.

So you have to relearn timings. You aren't the only player of a character having to relearn things. Get over it.

And again his tools were NOT removed, aside from maybe Neutral Special but that still has it's occasional use and that is a stupid move anyway and the only way to balance it out is to make it incredibly bad, they were just toned down as I've already said and explained how. Saying they are removed is a big fat lie. Stop acting like he can't do anything with his Specials anymore, because the opposite is true. You can still JC Dspecial on the ground or air and can still combo out of it at mid and high percents. But no because it no longer has a hitbox on turning the move is now so very ruined. Sspecial is still JCable on the ground and still gives good mix-ups on the ground. But no because the move is no long JCable in the air, which made his recovery obnoxious, it is now ruined let's all forget the Dspecial is still JCable in the air. Uspecial is still a good move because you can still follow up Uair juggles with it and still act out of it pretty fast making it decently safe recovering. The only one that is mostly useless now is Nspecial, but c'mon that's a stupid move in the first place that really should be replaced with something else but until then the only way to balance it is to make it a bad move.

Nspecial is still a great move with great followups, but if someone rolls or airdoges it goes to special fall, which leaves him really vulnerable. A good move with a big weakness seems ok to me in terms of design.

What I would appreciate it that you would please say what makes Sonic badly designed now in 3.5. I would also appreciate if you would please stopped saying the word stupid, since it serves no porpuse to your argument and there are better words for it.

 

[satanstoenail]

i would say that sonics bad matchups are:
mario, squirtle, space animals (unless you take them off stage), sheik, and mewtwo. that is what i'm thinking.

 

[GabPR]

Why squirt?

i would say that sonics bad matchups are:
mario, squirtle, space animals (unless you take them off stage), sheik, and mewtwo. that is what i'm thinking.

Why squirt?

 

[mimgrim]

What I would appreciate it that you would please say what makes Sonic badly designed now in 3.5. I would also appreciate if you would please stopped saying the word stupid, since it serves no porpuse to your argument and there are better words for it.

Sonic is badly design because of 2 main things. He is suppose to be the fastest thing alive, something like that is incredibly hard to balance because his run speed is going to be quite a few steps above the rest, the only way to balance out that kind of speed is to do what Brawl did, can't kill to the opponent is like 200% but even with that it is still bad design. Secondly he still has really good burst-movement options when that was suppose to be some thing PMDT was trying to tone down. Sure his got toned down a little bit but his burst movement options are still ridiculous compared to everyone else in 3.5. And there's the big thing. The only other burst movement option that is JCable is Ike's Side Special but that is only on the ground, and he isn't a moving hitbox, isn't as good, and sends him into special fall unless he wall jumps out of it, and he only has one WJ out of it now. Sonic's Side Special is generally similar now, aside from it not send him into special fall and I believe he can't wall jump out of it. However Down Special can still be JCed in the air which still makes he recovery rather ridiculous and just gives him safe options. Sonic is just the type of character that if you want to keep him true to his games he is going to be badly designed, whether he is an actual good character or not, and the only way to make him not badly design is to normalize him and not care about staying true to his games,

 

[GabPR]

Sonic is badly design because of 2 main things. He is suppose to be the fastest thing alive, something like that is incredibly hard to balance because his run speed is going to be quite a few steps above the rest, the only way to balance out that kind of speed is to do what Brawl did, can't kill to the opponent is like 200% but even with that it is still bad design. Secondly he still has really good burst-movement options when that was suppose to be some thing PMDT was trying to tone down. Sure his got toned down a little bit but his burst movement options are still ridiculous compared to everyone else in 3.5. And there's the big thing. The only other burst movement option that is JCable is Ike's Side Special but that is only on the ground, and he isn't a moving hitbox, isn't as good, and sends him into special fall unless he wall jumps out of it, and he only has one WJ out of it now. Sonic's Side Special is generally similar now, aside from it not send him into special fall and I believe he can't wall jump out of it. However Down Special can still be JCed in the air which still makes he recovery rather ridiculous and just gives him safe options. Sonic is just the type of character that if you want to keep him true to his games he is going to be badly designed, whether he is an actual good character or not, and the only way to make him not badly design is to normalize him and not care about staying true to his games,

I think you are overreacting. Yes he is the character with the fastest running speed, but he is not the character with the fastest acceleration, and because of that to actually get to his fastest running speed he would need to (and this is a rough calculation) get to almost the middle of FD to reach it. This makes many characters with long reaching dash attacks or fast accelaration speeds reach him in short to moderate distances. (if lets say you both start running in a direction at the same time). His recovery is still pretty good, probably top 10 or 5 of the game in terms of reach. But it is also not broken because it is rather linear once you have to resort to up B, and his spinshot has also been reduced in range. You have a few mixups yes, but it is no longer "kill me or I come back" like 3.0. As far as badly designed goes, he has pretty good options that have glaring weaknesses, In his current state he is better designed than past updates.

 

[N810]

WiFi could help you too

My computer isn't powerful enough to do netplay.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

My computer isn't powerful enough to do netplay.

I meant just download the Wifi version and set it up as if you're using the full set one and play online but ok

 

[jtm94]

Character is mad difficult to get movement down with. I was never good at SHing with frame 3 jump squats.
Some things were changed, I play @satanstoenail all the time and the character is mad capable. I could see him being pretty soft to disjoints such as Marth, Roy, Mewtwo, MK? Not much is being said in saying the Fox MU got more difficult, literally everyone in the game loses to him it isn't special.

It pains me to see people throwing themselves at the wall about the new changes. His gameplay is still very good and I would generously put him at the higher end of the cast still. The character is one that heavily benefits tech skill much like Hax's Falcon in Melee. He has extremely similar vibes, but with a better run speed and grab game. Due to his impressive speed and dash dance it allows him to control the pace of the game against most characters that are not Fox. MK lost his downthrow that set up tech chases, but Sonic's is better than MK's old downthrow and leads into drop zone fair at the edge. I am being bold in saying this, but I honestly blame any deficiency in Sonic's performance on his underdeveloped meta game. The character has such a high skill ceiling, but people complain when they change how well he performs at entry-level. Sonic was still good in 2.6 after the heavy nerfs, was amazing last update after the buffs, and retains everything that has made him good and unique in this version. Stupid characters like Diddy, Pit, Mewtwo, and Mario were changed extensively and overall I say that gives Sonic a much better MU spread. I honestly don't think any MU he has is nearly as polarizing as some of the others that exist in this game. If he loses he loses by a little, there's none of that Sheik vs Ganon stuff going on and his place in the game right now still stands pretty tall all things considered. I will defend my stance on how this character is strongly viable.

 

[Vultron]

GabPR, I find the Squirtle match up pretty hard due to his newly increased air speed, strong lingering aerials, and most of his attacks have a higher priority than Sonic's. I always thought he was a sleeper character, and 3.5 basically buffed him, if the player didn't approach with withdrawal.

Do you have an answer for him, or have you not fought a good one recently?

 

[satanstoenail]

Why squirt?

Why squirt?

i say him because most of his moves beat out sonics everytime. it was a given in 3.0 that sonic had a bad matchup with him. but i will say in 3.5 squirtles armor will begin to either clank or be beaten out at a lower percent (which i like). it makes the match up alittle better. squirtles gimp game towards sonic is really good too. have squirtle land a bair on you off stage at mid percent and try and come back..... (its just not going to happen) haha

 

[satanstoenail]

Character is mad difficult to get movement down with. I was never good at SHing with frame 3 jump squats.
Some things were changed, I play @satanstoenail all the time and the character is mad capable. I could see him being pretty soft to disjoints such as Marth, Roy, Mewtwo, MK? Not much is being said in saying the Fox MU got more difficult, literally everyone in the game loses to him it isn't special.

It pains me to see people throwing themselves at the wall about the new changes. His gameplay is still very good and I would generously put him at the higher end of the cast still. The character is one that heavily benefits tech skill much like Hax's Falcon in Melee. He has extremely similar vibes, but with a better run speed and grab game. Due to his impressive speed and dash dance it allows him to control the pace of the game against most characters that are not Fox. MK lost his downthrow that set up tech chases, but Sonic's is better than MK's old downthrow and leads into drop zone fair at the edge. I am being bold in saying this, but I honestly blame any deficiency in Sonic's performance on his underdeveloped meta game. The character has such a high skill ceiling, but people complain when they change how well he performs at entry-level. Sonic was still good in 2.6 after the heavy nerfs, was amazing last update after the buffs, and retains everything that has made him good and unique in this version. Stupid characters like Diddy, Pit, Mewtwo, and Mario were changed extensively and overall I say that gives Sonic a much better MU spread. I honestly don't think any MU he has is nearly as polarizing as some of the others that exist in this game. If he loses he loses by a little, there's none of that Sheik vs Ganon stuff going on and his place in the game right now still stands pretty tall all things considered. I will defend my stance on how this character is strongly viable.

it was just a matter of changing a play style that no one wanted to deal with. thats why there is so much complaining with sonic now... it is also what happens when your main get nerfed... but lets be honest.. the 3.0 sonic consisted of a down b into another down b into another etc... just like umberon said... why do anything else, when down b is all you need. i personally hated what they did to sonic in 3.5. once i sat down and started thinking of it. i started realizing that maybe they changed him the way they did, to allow players to use what sonic is really capable of. abuse his OTHER moves. (trust me people sonic has other moves! haha). i love playing the character once again because i understand what the br was truly going for. sonic can do stupid stuff... but only if the player that knows what they are doing can make it happen... they wanted to see what a player can do with sonic without relying on down b. very smart on their end.

 

[GabPR]

GabPR, I find the Squirtle match up pretty hard due to his newly increased air speed, strong lingering aerials, and most of his attacks have a higher priority than Sonic's. I always thought he was a sleeper character, and 3.5 basically buffed him, if the player didn't approach with withdrawal.

Do you have an answer for him, or have you not fought a good one recently?

I have only fought avarage level squirtles, so I can only speculate.

Sonic has a good combo game on squirtle, and side b is not an issue if you quickly run in the opposite direction and pivot grab (its like a panic button when I approach them in the air.) I can see his foward smash and down smash problematic on the ledge if you cannot sweetspot properly, and his bubble can also be worrying, but other than that I cant really say...

 

[Vultron]

I have only fought avarage level squirtles, so I can only speculate.

Sonic has a good combo game on squirtle, and side b is not an issue if you quickly run in the opposite direction and pivot grab (its like a panic button when I approach them in the air.) I can see his foward smash and down smash problematic on the ledge if you cannot sweetspot properly, and his bubble can also be worrying, but other than that I cant really say...

My main problems usually revolve around a Squirtles aerial game, he can get an Uair > Nair > Double Jump > Soft Fair > Fair and bring me across the stage. I have no problem with the SideB approach. But if a Squirtle knows how to abuse his DownB, he will, and it gets pretty annoying, even when you tech it perfectly just because of the number of options he has for tech chases.

My sparring partner is a Squirtle main, so I am pretty versed in the matchup, but I just find it a little difficult.

 

[Ariyo]

The character is one that heavily benefits tech skill much like Hax's Falcon in Melee. He has extremely similar vibes, but with a better run speed and grab game.

How does he have a better run speed or grab game? Their grabs are nearly identical and have similar applications. Except Falcon has better disjoint and a knee. Also, Falcon's dash acceleration is better.