Something that can make Sm4sh shine with its own appeal.

[Kagetura]

Hey guys, I've been thinking lately, as well as experimenting, and im starting to come to the conclusion that were seriously holding this game back but shutting of the idea of officially using custom moves. case in point, I've been sitting here practicing with my main greninja and as u may have experienced, he can have a hell of a time approaching/ creating set ups to combo without the convinience of a well placed D tilt, ive been practicing this combo (D tilt, SHFF Uair, into Dair footstool Dair into Fair) with a friend, and while it may seen complicated due to ur opponent being able to DI its actually very easy to adapt and keep from breaking. Anyway, I was playing with a friend and having a rough time getting a initial pop up hit off on him and its really risky rushing down on a Rosalina with greninja's options, So after hours of frustration, we started messing with custom moves for the hell of it. And what i found made me feel like we've been approaching making this game look more appealing all wrong. For one,

A main selling point this smash game has above any is the abilty to switch out B moves for something that suits you or your situation more, lending more diversity and options to the game, making characters that would normally be considered low or mid tier high threats. While im on the topic of greninja ill use him as an example. Greninja has a B skill called Shifting Shuriken, that has 2 properties, one it can throw out a slow traveling short distance shuriken that pops the opponent up for a good amount of hitstun if they get hit, or 2 a slightly charged MUCH faster version that now only travels faster but pulls your opponent towards you in a predictated angle, to go even further, the angle your opponent gets pulled in from is predetermined by distance, so it can lend itself well to combo set ups. While practicing with Shifting Shuriken, i found out that it ends up true comboing into a bunch of different things. Such as Upsmash, Dair, Fair, Footstool Dair, and Uair. Long story short that amazing combo that would once but put off as a situational gimmick became a viable combo, that isnt just a 2 hit string. My point is thou i just tested only greninja, im sure alot more characters have hidden potential like this that were just sitting on because we trying to follow a unneccessary tradition, and most skills actually come with a draw back, like the slightly increased lag at the end of Shifting Shuriken compared to the normal one, so its not giving you something for nothing, it will essentially allow people to come up with all kinds of new playing styles for lacking characters.

i urge all of you to at least try out some of your mains customs with serious intention and see if you dont feel it would really help this Meta bloom. Instead of us sitting here complaining about diddy's Over privileges we can be evening the playing field, essentially creating a more dynamic match up system where each character action has options to counter a bad match up rather than just being switched out to a pocket diddy. Sorry i wrote so much, it just really hit me in a passionate way tonight that i would love to see the Meta take a breath of fresh air.

 

[moofpi]

Yup. I main Mario, secondary Alph and tertiary Falco. Though honestly I could also add Wii Fit and Kirby to that list. I feel like I play a lot of characters, when customs are on I feel like I have an entire cast at my fingertips. Mario has 3 or 4 set ups, along with default that I really like. Alph has one set up and default I like. Falco has one set up and default. Wii Fit has a great set up and default. And Kirby has like 2 or 3 set ups and default I like. That goes from 5 characters to what feels like 14 or so.

But honestly, I feel like I wouldn't even need a secondary if I had 5 Mario's to choose from. But I do anyway because they're all so much fun

 

[B.A.M.]

While I do understand the idea that customs should be given a chance I do believe people are preemptively inferring the meta can go nowhere from here. As a researcher of this game I can confidently say that top players themselves are scratching the surface. The lower level players arent not even there yet. strings like the one you provided above ( im going to make the inference that you meant uair and not utilt lol) dont even make any sense ; even with no DI that wouldnt work. Theres so many guaranteed or near guaranteed strings for greninja that are infinitely better than that arbitrary string you are practicing. So while I appreciate the passion, I believe that it would be better directed at practicing properly rather than posting opinions that are contingent on misinformation.

Again this is no sleight to you but its quite distressing seeing the competitive Smash 4 sub forum in this state. I said it earlier in the metagame and ill say it again; threads need to have some kind of approval before being posted at this current time period. You have a bunch of new players such as yourself who are making knee jerk reactions and posting complaints or grievances rather than learning the game. the worst part is majority of the time threads like this would be filled to the brim with other rookies, apprentices, and journeymen justifying things such as your theoretical strings without any sufficient evidence behind them. this is just propagating mediocrity rather than growth which I assume that is what all these new players are actually looking for. This is not to mention the myriad of threads that are based on virtually the same thing. There are PLENTY of custom move threads if you simply take the time to scroll down, and yet we see tons of them pop up on a daily basis.

Anyways OP I would strongly suggest you retest this with a friend properly, because if those strings are working then the error is on his side rather than strong execution on yours. Customs or not quite a few things you have posted simply dont chain together. period. Check out the Greninja boards as there should be some season members who can assist you in your testing and general learning experience.

 

[Octagon]

I totally agree. Custom moves bring so much more to the game that the game could be way deeper than we realize. Custom equipment breaks the game haha but I feel custom moves just personalize the characters even more to your liking

 

[Kagetura]

While I do understand the idea that customs should be given a chance I do believe people are preemptively inferring the meta can go nowhere from here. As a researcher of this game I can confidently say that top players themselves are scratching the surface. The lower level players arent not even there yet. strings like the one you provided above ( im going to make the inference that you meant uair and not utilt lol) dont even make any sense ; even with no DI that wouldnt work. Theres so many guaranteed or near guaranteed strings for greninja that are infinitely better than that arbitrary string you are practicing. So while I appreciate the passion, I believe that it would be better directed at practicing properly rather than posting opinions that are contingent on misinformation.

Again this is no sleight to you but its quite distressing seeing the competitive Smash 4 sub forum in this state. I said it earlier in the metagame and ill say it again; threads need to have some kind of approval before being posted at this current time period. You have a bunch of new players such as yourself who are making knee jerk reactions and posting complaints or grievances rather than learning the game. the worst part is majority of the time threads like this would be filled to the brim with other rookies, apprentices, and journeymen justifying things such as your theoretical strings without any sufficient evidence behind them. this is just propagating mediocrity rather than growth which I assume that is what all these new players are actually looking for. This is not to mention the myriad of threads that are based on virtually the same thing. There are PLENTY of custom move threads if you simply take the time to scroll down, and yet we see tons of them pop up on a daily basis.

Anyways OP I would strongly suggest you retest this with a friend properly, because if those strings are working then the error is on his side rather than strong execution on yours. Customs or not quite a few things you have posted simply dont chain together. period. Check out the Greninja boards as there should be some season members who can assist you in your testing and general learning experience.

Interesting that you assume im a new, or uninformed player., for one, yes i did mean Uair, that was my mistake and 2 these Infinitely better strings YOUR inferring dont exist, Ive played Melee and brawl for yours so i know how to play the game tyvm, and if executed prolly the most that can be done to stop it from working is ground teching the stomps. Take a step back and read the obvious point, im not saying the meta cant get better without customs, thats an obvious ******** statement in itself, im saying it can be more of an interesting and unique game coupled with it.

 

[T0MMY]

TL;DR: I believe Custom Moves made my character better when really it was just my opponent that was introduced to something new and in time my opponent will learn to adapt and we're back to square one.

So I am not here to put your opinion down that you like Custom Moves because it helped you out, but I am pointing out the incredible leap in logic where your opinion is going to save Smash from some kind of conventional problem that's "holding it back".
Smash for Wii U is popular, sold well, and I even saw it have more viewers watching it than LoL at a given time (while not making claims why that happened, but just having it happen is a good piece of information). All this shows that Smash Wii U is not suffering from anything holding it back and I am making the assumption it is actually something about you that is holding you back from enjoying the game and projecting these feelings of frustration onto the Smash Community at large.

Step back to a bigger perspective and realize you are constraining yourself to one character (Greninja) and most likely one way of approaching or a very limited way of approaching that you don't change and just try to do the same thing "better" repeatedly always finding failure. Einstein said insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I would suggest that you try out something different, utilize different approaches, change movement patterns, adapt to your opponent's actions, and look at using different characters as a counterpick.
One thing I would not suggest doing is trying to spread an idea that something is holding Smash back and curing your frustrations over struggling with approaching your friend's Rosalina is the answer to that supposed problem which may or may not exist. I don't think it does.

 

[Jaxas]

TL;DR: I believe Custom Moves made my character better when really it was just my opponent that was introduced to something new and in time my opponent will learn to adapt and we're back to square one.

While that may be the case, that doesn't mean that the custom options don't give characters better specials (and therefore more/better options).
Think of it this way: If your standard B move was MetaKnight's Smash 4 Tornado, and your custom B move was his Brawl Tornado, even if your opponent 'adapts' you're not back to square one because you legitimately have a more useful move. Now there aren't any Brawl MK Tornado level customs (thankfully...), but that doesn't mean that you can't replace your useless Gravitational Pull against Captain Falcon for something that actually has a use in the MU, even if only slight.

Anyways, @ Kagetura : There are a number of threads talking about this exact thing, I'd recommend searching around. Check out things like Amazing Ampharos' Custom Moves Project, for example.

 

[Kagetura]

TL;DR: I believe Custom Moves made my character better when really it was just my opponent that was introduced to something new and in time my opponent will learn to adapt and we're back to square one.

So I am not here to put your opinion down that you like Custom Moves because it helped you out, but I am pointing out the incredible leap in logic where your opinion is going to save Smash from some kind of conventional problem that's "holding it back".
Smash for Wii U is popular, sold well, and I even saw it have more viewers watching it than LoL at a given time (while not making claims why that happened, but just having it happen is a good piece of information). All this shows that Smash Wii U is not suffering from anything holding it back and I am making the assumption it is actually something about you that is holding you back from enjoying the game and projecting these feelings of frustration onto the Smash Community at large.

Step back to a bigger perspective and realize you are constraining yourself to one character (Greninja) and most likely one way of approaching or a very limited way of approaching that you don't change and just try to do the same thing "better" repeatedly always finding failure. Einstein said insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I would suggest that you try out something different, utilize different approaches, change movement patterns, adapt to your opponent's actions, and look at using different characters as a counterpick.
One thing I would not suggest doing is trying to spread an idea that something is holding Smash back and curing your frustrations over struggling with approaching your friend's Rosalina is the answer to that supposed problem which may or may not exist. I don't think it does.

u guys seem to be consistently coming here with the notion that im implying sm4sh isnt performing or living up to what is expecting, when i say holding back what i am implying is that it can be even more than what we expect, im not doubting the game, hell is my favorite smash so far in the serious, i personally rather the way matches flow and the feel of power struggle between offense and defense rather that skewing too much towards one. My simple point was, why turn down dessert when it comes free of cost and ur still hungry. It doesnt hurt to add, and if it does, hey its optional, we tried it, move on, and saying im spreading some kind of negative notion is another thing that comes completely unwarranted, as of late people have been so dam touchy about what is said about the game because of the whole Apex thing, while i am still extremely irritated by it, that by no means dictates how i feel that we still arent completely evaluating our games, some characters with decently options are dubbed as unusable trash just because their force to default, while giving the chance they can become valuable unit, case in point the example i gave earlier, all the shuriken added was an option greninja lacks against most of his extremely bad match ups and there is a sacrifice to be me, you just have an option of one of 3 ways in which u choose to sacrifice thats all, im not a sm4sh hater so id appreciate not being approached like one really.

 

[Kagetura]

While that may be the case, that doesn't mean that the custom options don't give characters better specials (and therefore more/better options).
Think of it this way: If your standard B move was MetaKnight's Smash 4 Tornado, and your custom B move was his Brawl Tornado, even if your opponent 'adapts' you're not back to square one because you legitimately have a more useful move. Now there aren't any Brawl MK Tornado level customs (thankfully...), but that doesn't mean that you can't replace your useless Gravitational Pull against Captain Falcon for something that actually has a use in the MU, even if only slight.

Anyways, @ Kagetura : There are a number of threads talking about this exact thing, I'd recommend searching around. Check out things like Amazing Ampharos' Custom Moves Project, for example.

thx for the notice, i usually check the pages often so didnt know there were a upsurge in posts recently, ill check elsewhere.

 

[T0MMY]

While that may be the case, that doesn't mean that the custom options don't give characters better specials (and therefore more/better options).

Agreed, and well stated.
Also noted that "better" is a matter of individual opinion. When I mained Greninja I actually didn't like any of the alternative specials when I used them and felt like they also removed Greninja further from the spirit of the character (couldn't place the moves in context of Pokemon X/Y).

Mileage may differ.

Like I said, there's a difference between saying one likes or dislikes Greninja's Custom Moves and posting here pushing the image there's a problem that needs to be solved in plural speech - "Our Glaring Mistake". I had my hardships playing Greninja and worked to change them around for myself (worked out great for myself); I didn't seek to make the world change for me... that seems like it would just be setting oneself up for disappointment.

im not a sm4sh hater so id appreciate not being approached like one really.

Nobody said you were. Any notion that you are may be purely subjective, try reading through my post again with it in mind that I'm not saying you are some kind of "hater". I am actually more inclined to believe you care enough about the game to have come to Smashboards and post your feelings about it.
But what I said still stands - it may be asking too much to expect the world to change for you because you were frustrated with your character choice and choice of strategy against your friend. This one instance between just two players out of thousands is not compelling enough to change the world.
Maybe now that I recognized your love of the game you can show me the same respect. We both want the best out of the game, but "best" is subjective and the Community as a whole should agree to what the Community as a whole wants done.

 

[Kagetura]

Agreed, and well stated.
Also noted that "better" is a matter of individual opinion. When I mained Greninja I actually didn't like any of the alternative specials when I used them and felt like they also removed Greninja further from the spirit of the character (couldn't place the moves in context of Pokemon X/Y).

Mileage may differ.

Like I said, there's a difference between saying one likes or dislikes Greninja's Custom Moves and posting here pushing the image there's a problem that needs to be solved in plural speech - "Our Glaring Mistake". I had my hardships playing Greninja and worked to change them around for myself (worked out great for myself); I didn't seek to make the world change for me... that seems like it would just be setting oneself up for disappointment.

Im not saying i have some glaring problem per say that NEEDS fixing i was just giving a simple example how it really occur to me in that instance how useful they can be, i havent used customs seriously before that point, ive tried them but only for leisure, once again, im not saying its a horrible char that needs fixing, or else i wouldnt be using him if that was my belief, im saying it added options to a simple problem that could stagnant him in a bad situation, im not a novice or casual player and its kind of a piss off that its insinuated because i advocated that there might be a issue, or for custom moves, Im just simply saying this games offers more diversity and options beyond any so far, lets take advantage of it.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm still like 50/50 on Customs. While I like the idea behind them I feel that the implementation is somewhat lacking (way too many Customs are useless / redundant), and I'm worried that there may be something out there that breaks the game far more than Diddy does.

 

[Roukiske]

I was hoping they would make an easy way to switch out custom moves in CSS, but they didn't... was very disappointed. That's not to say they can't add a patch for that, but that is pretty unlikely at this point in time at least. Ontop of that, having the 3 Mii's as generic fighters when customization is off. Missed opportunities.

 

[Terotrous]

I was hoping they would make an easy way to switch out custom moves in CSS, but they didn't... was very disappointed. That's not to say they can't add a patch for that, but that is pretty unlikely at this point in time at least. Ontop of that, having the 3 Mii's as generic fighters when customization is off. Missed opportunities.

Yeah, that was so stupid. Learned nothing from SFxT (granted, we know that Nintendo is at best vaguely aware that other companies exist).

It would be so easy too. There are 4 moves, with 3 variants each. Press a sequence of four buttons (B / A / X for 1 / 2 / 3) to choose your moveset (ie, 1132 = BBXA). It would take like 2 seconds per player.

 

[Kagetura]

Ya the idea doesn't come without flaws, but im leaning towards it would possibly help more than hurt at this point, i could be wrong, but i do notice that a vast majority of the customs come with their own flaws, hence idea that they might be pre balanced in themselves. Point is it doesnt hurt to try before writing it off, but as so many have made it clear before thats just one unimportant persons input on the situation.

 

[T0MMY]

Im not saying i have some glaring problem per say that NEEDS fixing i was just giving a simple example how it really occur to me in that instance how useful they can be

Perhaps the title is misleading. Please look at it and honestly examine what it is communicating "Our Glaring Mistake".
I don't think I'm the only one getting the message that there's some kind of major ("glaring") problem ("mistake") that you are going to fix for us ("our") in your post.
What you posted was a description of frustration over tactics not working on your friend. I see this hardly a problem for the community and instead more of a personalized problem we the users of Smashboards can help you through.\
Now, I spent some of my time giving you what I believed to be sound advice - it's up to you to take what you can for that and if not, then at least I tried. I appreciate you taking your time to come to Smashboards and try to help out and I hope you appreciate the best attempts to join in helping things around here.
Good luck.

 

[Conda]

Loaded and vague topic title. This could have been posted in one of the threads that are about custom moves.

 

[Kagetura]

Perhaps the title is misleading. Please look at it and honestly examine what it is communicating "Our Glaring Mistake".
I don't think I'm the only one getting the message that there's some kind of major ("glaring") problem ("mistake") that you are going to fix for us ("our") in your post.
What you posted was a description of frustration over tactics not working on your friend. I see this hardly a problem for the community and instead more of a personalized problem we the users of Smashboards can help you through.\
Now, I spent some of my time giving you what I believed to be sound advice - it's up to you to take what you can for that and if not, then at least I tried. I appreciate you taking your time to come to Smashboards and try to help out and I hope you appreciate the best attempts to join in helping things around here.
Good luck.

Fair enough, it does seem to be the main cause of misunderstanding an i apologize to all that got the impression that i was insinuating we need a drastic fix.

 

[T0MMY]

It's all good, that's kind of our big goals here - to organize and discuss knowledge regarding Smash.

 

[Cazdon]

While I do understand the idea that customs should be given a chance I do believe people are preemptively inferring the meta can go nowhere from here. As a researcher of this game I can confidently say that top players themselves are scratching the surface. The lower level players arent not even there yet. strings like the one you provided above ( im going to make the inference that you meant uair and not utilt lol) dont even make any sense ; even with no DI that wouldnt work. Theres so many guaranteed or near guaranteed strings for greninja that are infinitely better than that arbitrary string you are practicing. So while I appreciate the passion, I believe that it would be better directed at practicing properly rather than posting opinions that are contingent on misinformation.

Again this is no sleight to you but its quite distressing seeing the competitive Smash 4 sub forum in this state. I said it earlier in the metagame and ill say it again; threads need to have some kind of approval before being posted at this current time period. You have a bunch of new players such as yourself who are making knee jerk reactions and posting complaints or grievances rather than learning the game. the worst part is majority of the time threads like this would be filled to the brim with other rookies, apprentices, and journeymen justifying things such as your theoretical strings without any sufficient evidence behind them. this is just propagating mediocrity rather than growth which I assume that is what all these new players are actually looking for. This is not to mention the myriad of threads that are based on virtually the same thing. There are PLENTY of custom move threads if you simply take the time to scroll down, and yet we see tons of them pop up on a daily basis.

Anyways OP I would strongly suggest you retest this with a friend properly, because if those strings are working then the error is on his side rather than strong execution on yours. Customs or not quite a few things you have posted simply dont chain together. period. Check out the Greninja boards as there should be some season members who can assist you in your testing and general learning experience.

To me it almost sounds like the early days of smash melee, where one guy beats his all his friends and suddenly he is the best player ever, till he goes to tourney and gets annihilated. Now it's just that way with playstyles, when a group of friends can't figure out a way around a tactic or set of moves, they just jump to conclusions stating it's unbeatable. No hate to anyone or the OP, just pointing out similarities, and besides that, many of you aren't the problem.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yo, immaletyoufinish, but

Loaded and vague topic title. This could have been posted in one of the threads that are about custom moves.

He's right.
We are already discussing Custom Moves and trying to avoid having too many new threads.

I'd suggest moving the discussion either HERE or HERE.
Thank you!