Something I noticed about the Bayonetta matchup

[glenn]

Her smash attacks appear to have very weak priority. I got witch timed, and forward smashed twice and both times it clanked with lemons. I'm not sure if it was the strong melee hitbox or the projectile that clanked, but it's pretty easy to stop her smashes if you've been countered since all your moves slow down. Pellets just kind of float out there and cancel her smash attacks. Also, leaf shield can clank with smashes too.

 

[Plutooooo]

If only lemons were enough against her

But leaf shield clanking seems interesting. Think I can beat out her dsmash from the ledge with a jumping nair?

 

[glenn]

Think I can beat out her dsmash from the ledge with a jumping nair?

It's pretty risky. If you miss, you'll get spiked.

The thing about challenging it during witch time, is being slowed down that much leaves your pellets floating like little sentries if she tries to smash attack. To clarify my post above, I got witch timed once, and during the slowdown, bayonetta had enough time to fsmash twice, but both times it clanked with my pellets. All I did was tap A indiscriminately. That's how easy it is to stop her smashes if you get countered.

However, the timing would be much stricter without the help of witch time. It kind of works against her in that case.

 

[ForteX]

Bayo can't witch time projectile attacks, so the real question is: how are you getting witch timed? Her chief gimmick is worthless in this matchup - as long as you avoid leaving the stage (and avoid recovering low if you do) you should be virtually unkillable.

Her smashes do have very low priority, though. I've noticed that attacks that generate multiple sequential hitboxes will linger during witch time, potentially hurting Bayo, or clinking with fsmash and dsmash. Spark Shot is MegaMan's best for this.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Bayo can't witch time projectile attacks, so the real question is: how are you getting witch timed? Her chief gimmick is worthless in this matchup - as long as you avoid leaving the stage (and avoid recovering low if you do) you should be virtually unkillable.

Her smashes do have very low priority, though. I've noticed that attacks that generate multiple sequential hitboxes will linger during witch time, potentially hurting Bayo, or clinking with fsmash and dsmash. Spark Shot is MegaMan's best for this.

Doesn't wich time affects you if you are near her?
Cause i got wich timed by throwing a neutral B diagonal MB at her, and i've been told that if Link, for example, throws a boomerang but is near her/runs at her when the boomerang hits, he gets slowed down.

 

[glenn]

Doesn't wich time affects you if you are near her?
Cause i got wich timed by throwing a neutral B diagonal MB at her, and i've been told that if Link, for example, throws a boomerang but is near her/runs at her when the boomerang hits, he gets slowed down.

Yes, projectiles will trigger witch time and slow the projectile and the owner, if they are close enough.

Edit: Checking over in the Bayonetta boards, they seem to think her smashes have item priority.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Yes, projectiles will trigger witch time and slow the projectile and the owner, if they are close enough.

Edit: Checking over in the Bayonetta boards, they seem to think her smashes have item priority.

Well, then it doesn't seem very good for us cause, she rolls back when she activates wich time, so if we activate it with bair, usmash, or with 3 pellets, can't she easily then jump over/roll back on us and either usmash for a kill or start her combo shenanigans?

Also what does having item priority means?

 

[glenn]

My understanding is that item priority moves will always lose out to aerials, since aerials can't clank. I suppose this is why the point blank hitbox of nair is so effective against her smashes. However, the projectile part of nair seems to beat her smashes too, so that's neat. But I'm guessing that all of our aerials will be effective: UAir, BAir (especially), FAir, and NAir.

Also, if NAir pellets work, I'm guessing FTilt and Jab also do.

 

[ForteX]

Huh, I guess I've just never been so close with Metal Blade. Every time it happened to me, I figured I just hit with the physical part of nair/jab/uair.

Something new every day I guess.

 

[Rush 2112]

I noticed that dtilt will go under her long range bullet shooting move and LS can save you from bullet time sometimes

 

[glenn]

If she charges bullet climax stay grounded, it angles slightly up, and can't hit you unless you either jump into it or are standing around pellet range. It's a perfect time to stick a crash bomb. Leaf shield is so good in this matchup, it outranges her bullet arts.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I noticed that dtilt will go under her long range bullet shooting move and LS can save you from bullet time sometimes

If she charges bullet climax stay grounded, it angles slightly up, and can't hit you unless you either jump into it or are standing around pellet range. It's a perfect time to stick a crash bomb. Leaf shield is so good in this matchup, it outranges her bullet arts.

Does LS clanks with her smashes?
Cause if it does then maybe that can help with the witch time BS.

 

[CopShowGuy]

It generally seems agreed that Mega Man has some interesting tools to counter Bayonetta's silly antics. She can't even use side special to get in because the lemons will just keep her out.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Learning this match up is quite the pain since Bae just has a lot of tools, a lot of good tools that is. From my experience, I've had VERY close games with Bayonetta, and I won most of them, but again, very close. I want to say that at best, it's a 50/50. At worst, possibly a 40/60 for Bae.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I don't know. Her neutral is not exactly the greatest, but considering WT and her "0 deaths", i think it can be troublesome. If you essentially misspace one single pellet with 40 % or so, it can be a stock.

Also, anyone knows how to DI her combos? Again, she is still new and i keep being told you can DI out of all her 0 to death combos, thing is no one tells me exactly how.
Playing against her, i tried to DI away, but most of the time it seemed like my opponent was dropping the combo rather than me getting out of it, and one time i did got killed.

 

[Megamang]

Sdi towards whichever side you are already on (so, away from bayo) during witch twist (her uspecial) in my experience.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I've heard that repeatedly doing a quarter circle down and away helps.

 

[glenn]

Does LS clanks with her smashes?
Cause if it does then maybe that can help with the witch time BS.

I haven't tried it, but wouldn't be surprised if it did.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I haven't played really good bayos but from what I can tell about this MU is that Megaman has an advantage in the neutral and if you keep bayo there, your'e good. I managed to only take low to mid precents playing this way. Crash bomb and fsmash are your lifesavers in this MU. crashbomb is good to stop anything Bayo has that to convert, and fsmash covers a wide space in front of you. Bayo usually aproaches from the front so it's good that you can cover this space with fsmash. be aware tho that fsmash isn't safe, but for some reason, my opps usuallly shield my fully charged fsmash eating their shield, they wont be shielding again tho lol cuz they mmight get shield break lol....its kinda safe to just fsmash at long range tho....expect bayo to shield but the message youre telling her is that she has to respect your hitboxes

 

[Megamang]

I feel like both of those options will get me witch timed, then fsmash dsmash gimped...

 

[Skyfox2000]

I was actually thinking about this Matchup in my head a few minutes ago. I was thinking that Megaman had the upper hand. I feel that Bayonetta struggles against heavy projectile based characters like Megaman.

How does Megaman do against Corrin?

 

[Sorichuudo]

I was actually thinking about this Matchup in my head a few minutes ago. I was thinking that Megaman had the upper hand. I feel that Bayonetta struggles against heavy projectile based characters like Megaman.

How does Megaman do against Corrin?

A bit early to tell, same with Bayonetta, but in her case i really don't see how people can think Mega has the advantage when one mistake in neutral can lead to an easy stock. I mean, that is why we think Falcon is a slightly bad MU for Mega, i was expecting the same to apply about Bayonetta.

 

[Skyfox2000]

A bit early to tell, same with Bayonetta, but in her case i really don't see how people can think Mega has the advantage when one mistake in neutral can lead to an easy stock. I mean, that is why we think Falcon is a slightly bad MU for Mega, i was expecting the same to apply about Bayonetta.

Yeah. Megaman players have to be on point with thier moves alot.

 

[glenn]

I think this matchup is absolutely determined by how well Mega can hold the neutral. It's the same for any other characters that have strong punishes. When we shut them out, we determine the flow of the match, but if they get in we're gonna have a bad time.

A bit early to tell, same with Bayonetta, but in her case i really don't see how people can think Mega has the advantage when one mistake in neutral can lead to an easy stock. I mean, that is why we think Falcon is a slightly bad MU for Mega, i was expecting the same to apply about Bayonetta.

The comparison to between Falcon and Bayonetta is pretty apt I think. But a couple of things work in our favor. Bayo isn't as fast and is much, much lighter than Falcon. The counterpoint to that is that she is harder to gimp on recovery, but I feel like her speed just doesn't give her the same opportunities that Falcon's does. Also, a lot of the flashy combos I've been seeing from Bayonetta seem unlikely to work once people understand how to SDI her stuff. She's like a weaker version of ZSS, in my opinion. Although, it's only been a week since she's been playable, so time will tell.

 

[p1ay6ack]

i think SPACING matters alot in the neutral. if you space away from her side b range, you can frustrate her. also dont be afraid to shield everything of side b. i think most ppl let go of shield too early going for punishes

 

[xIvan321]

Bayo can't witch time projectile attacks, so the real question is: how are you getting witch timed? Her chief gimmick is worthless in this matchup - as long as you avoid leaving the stage (and avoid recovering low if you do) you should be virtually unkillable.

Not entirely good advice. Your goal would be at this point would be to snap on the ledge as efficiently as possible to avoid getting spiked. Sometimes you need to use your double jump before you up b rather than the reverse. If you're all the way high up there you may as well counter attack if she is charging, but always snap on to the ledge properly to avoid dying if you're recovering low. Its actually not bad idea to do so, but sometimes when you're way too low you'll need to waste your jump before you up b or else you would get spiked if your recovery doesn't make it and you use your jump.

From match up experience, it does not seem like a very good match up for Bayonetta. With slower frame data and such a jank way to recover that often misses her ledge snap, its pretty easy for us to punish. Of course he gimmick being witch time, its pretty ineffective, often gets baited out too much. We also tend to out prioritize her as well on many of her moves, and lastly outrange her.

Though having a decent punish game shouldn't be always a get out of jail free card from a bad match up. There are indeed reasons why Zero Suit Samus and C. Falcon would also have some bad match ups, despite a punish game. Aside from that, those are just my current impressions of the match up and would not mind anyone proving me wrong. Maybe my opinion will change in another week or two.

 

[Yojimbosan]

What do you think are Mega Man's best options when he does get witch timed?

 

[Sorichuudo]

Pray. A lot.

In all honesty, one time i managed to shield her usmash just in time to get a perfect shield, that ended up saving me.
Other time pellets disrupted her so she missed her punish.

But if you get witch timed, its pretty much over, disregarding lucky escapes like the ones i said.

 

[Megamang]

If you're near the ledge, a ledgesnap can save you. If you're able to predict it (projectile, especially crash bomber) then being in a dodge can save you. Otherwise pellets can help. But a good bayo knows to dispel them and then kill you, its basically hopeless

 

[xIvan321]

What do you think are Mega Man's best options when he does get witch timed?

You can up-smash her Witch Time which is one of your best defensive options against this cheeky gimmick. There is a visual timer on witch time move.

 

[Megamang]

Are you referring to the multi hit saving you? Or just the best punishment option?

If its the first, she can just dtilt into charged usmash

 

[Locke 06]

Witch time is unblockable and activates during dodges. Aka crash bomb only if you're confident you can keep her from getting close to you and using it to witch time you. Witch time activates on the projectile owner of they're (about) around her jab range.

When witch timed, she can shield and then punish all multi-hits (including usmash). And if you start dodging, she can just wait until your dodge ends. These will lessen your punishment, but you'll still take hefty damage.

 

[Megamang]

If you can time it, you can snap the ledge right when WT starts to get extended invincibility. I would not recommend you try this at lower damages, as a small mistake will definitely result in you dying due to her absurd spikes. But, when you know you will die if she gets the WT anyways (smash kill range), I'd give that a try. Or, just don't use crash bomb, but I like crash bomb too much to give it up. Against someone like Bayo who kills so fast, having a strong setup move is invaluable.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I haven't tested it and can't right now because I'm at work, but has anyone tried up b to get out of witch time punishes? I feel like if the move you used that activated witch time has low end lag, such as fair or nair, you might be able to up b out of her punish range. Megaman moves fast during up b, and although witch time slows you, it seems like its a percentage slow, rather than bringing characters down to a flat speed. ( i.e. fox illusion is a faster move than pikachus skull bash, so fox illusion would still be comparatively faster than skull bash during witch time) Im probably wrong but if someone could test it, I would be grateful.

 

[BugDoctor]

Does LS clanks with her smashes?
Cause if it does then maybe that can help with the witch time BS.

Just a follow up to this. Last night I fought a Bayo in tournament (KID Goggles), and my Leaf Shield triggered Witch Time, at which point I jumped away and airdodged. He used her F-Smash and I'm pretty sure it clanked with my Leaf Shield, and we both freaked out because we had no idea what was happening, haha. I'm also pretty sure I clanked with it with a point-blank nair at one moment.

Her smashes have very strange priority, and it's definitely worth looking into how we can take advantage of that with our toolkit. I honestly think MM can handle this matchup pretty well if it's played safely, and learning these small advantages will be handy.

 

[glenn]

I canceled a Bayo's smashes again last night during witch time with pellets, and it occurred to me, that this is really a knowledge thing. Players don't know that Mega Man can do this, otherwise they'd just tilt or jab us first, after witch time, and then smash. I doubt this will be very effective once people understand the matchup.

One other thing. I was looking at the goofy windbox K.O.s that game and watch gets on Bayo during witch twist. If you haven't seen it:

(lol, KO'd at 2%)
Her side-B to up-B strings are interruptable. I tried this last night: When she starts that BnB, if she's using her downward side-B, you can summon rush, which has two effects. It ejects you from the combo, and Bayo also bounces off of it because of the angle side-B down sends her. Now you are probably both very close to the blast zone and hopefully you've already planted an UAir. I didn't get a kill off mine because I timed it wrong, but it's probably another way to make Bayonetta second guess her combo game on Mega.

 

[Rush 2112]

You can only Rush out of that aerial combo after about 50%. At 0% if you get hit on the ground with that starter move(I don't know if it's sideb or dash attack) your going to get like 42% dmg if they don't mess it up. If she tries again you can Rush out of the second hit. I someone do it to me twice. The same exact string each stock and I could only upB at the same point.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

You can only Rush out of that aerial combo after about 50%. At 0% if you get hit on the ground with that starter move(I don't know if it's sideb or dash attack) your going to get like 42% dmg if they don't mess it up. If she tries again you can Rush out of the second hit. I someone do it to me twice. The same exact string each stock and I could only upB at the same point.

I wasn't asking about her aerial combo, I'm asking about witch time. Can you use rush after she counters a fair, for example, to get yourself up and away from the impending witch time follow up?

 

[Rush 2112]

I was replying to the person before me who was talking about using Rush to get out of sideB

 

[CopShowGuy]

Well I had a match against a good Bayonetta today. It was tedious, to say the least. I couldn't really go in until she was at a good percent where she could potentially be KOd. And I like me my sweet spot nairs, bairs, and falling uairs. Those were pretty much all off the table for the fight. Leaf Shield was also a liability. Had to make sure she didn't get close to me if I ever stuck her with a Crash Bomb either. That left me with grabs and my ranged options. I'd suggest going after her off stage when possible. Interrupting her recovery seems like a good idea.