Someone explain to me why wave dashing is even popular?

[L337m0j0]

Alright so here is my story, long ago, when melee first came out, me and my friends played the **** out of it all the time.

After a year or 2 I ended up getting really good (or so I thought) but then I went to a tourney where of course wave dashing was used a lot and I of course I got wrecked lol. I am 100% sure I would of at least stood a chance if wave dashing was non existent. (win percentage in smash wii u online is 80%, i have over 1500 matches, but that's not saying much since there is no good match making feature.)

Also, you all know wave dashing is a GLITCH right? You realize that smash is not supposed to be played at lightning speeds and that the characters themselves don't need that speed to do combos etc right?

Now before you get your panties in a bunch, yes, I am right about it being a GLITCH. Do you know what a glitch is? If you do, you would know that wave dashing is one. You exploit the game to create the glitch. All a glitch is, is when something happens that is not intended in a computer program. Wave dashing is clearly a glitch because I am sure that was NOT intended. If you say it was 'planned' you are just ignorant and ******, sorry to say.

I always felt that wave dashing removed a lot of the characters weaknesses as well, for example, being slower....some characters are slow for a reason, because they are strong. No character is slow in melee....NONE. They are all lightning fast with wave dashing incorporated, it's entirely obvious, especially after playing the game so long with no wave dashing. Sure some are faster than others due to walk speed but you barely notice it since all I see competitive smash players do is WAVE DASH CONSTANTLY. Non stop. What is the point in a fighting game if all the characters move almost the same?....I can't believe no one has a problem with that, that plays melee. Looks like im watching a broken game lmfao

I just want to know if there is something I am missing that makes everyone praise Melee so much compared to lets say Smash Wii U. I personally prefer timing my movements and attacks based on real mechanics as opposed to using a game exploit. I used play CS competitively as well, all exploits we found were removed from online play because they gave you an unfair advantage in certain situations. 'Crouch walking' in 1.6 was one that was eventually banned from online play. Smash should be no different when it comes to exploits. I know that if Street Fighter games had some type of exploit like that, it would get patched right away (and it has already happened, they have patched the game to fix exploits.)

If all your argument is that 'it makes the game faster' then you shouldn't bother wasting mine or anyone else's time.
Please give actual reason why wave dashing is actually a fundamental part of the experience, because to me, it completely ruins it and makes it bland as **** lol

 

[The Soap]

Bad troll is bad

 

[fatman667]

I'm kinda busy, so I skimmed through the thing quickly. Wavedashing serves a similar purpose to wavedashing in Marvel, as a quicker and more effificent spacing tool. Spacing is really important in any fighting game and wavedashing just makes it easier and more efficient to space. If you don't know how important spacing is, then you were never good enough for that tournament even if wavedashing never existed and that's a fact. L-canceling is more important to learn though and is even more popular than wavedashing, because it makes you able to move again faster after you do an aerial attack. Also Smash on Wii U is COMPLETELY different from Melee in almost every aspect besides the goal of taking off stocks from your opponent and core controls.

 

[L337m0j0]

I am not trolling. It is a legit question.

I know all about spacing. I use my spacing in Smash and Street fighter to win matches, if you dont have good position and spacing you lose. I know that.

However, wave dashing is not an exploit in Marvel so i don't get your logic.

 

[L337m0j0]

Wave dashing in marvel was actually programmed into the game as a mechanic.

Get where I am going with this?

Exploits should be banned in every game and you should be forced to use game mechanics to win in competitive play

 

[fatman667]

Wave dashing in marvel was actually programmed into the game as a mechanic.

Get where I am going with this?

Exploits should be banned in every game and you should be forced to use game mechanics to win in competitive play

By your logic combos in Street Fighter II should've been banned, because they were a glitch. Wavedashing in Melee is an exploit to the game's mechanic and was knowingly kept. So if you don't get it by now, sometimes exploits and glitches makes the game better. Jump installs in Guilty Gear was a glitch as well, now the devs endorses it just like Capcom did with combos. Yea the other glitches I'm mentioning are being officially supported by the devs now, but is wavedashing really that different of a glitch? Not at all, so stop b****ing like a child and learn to adapt. If you have all that time to write that first post, then use that time to learn to deal with it instead.

 

[L337m0j0]

******** like a child?...man you must have some problems in your life to think i'm '********' at randoms on a smash board LOL

I don't even play or plan to play melee anymore lol so I won't be adapting. I am way to much into smash wii u lol SO FUN. I love the online, but this is literally just a discussion so don't get your panties tied up in a bunch like I mentioned before

I just am simply wondering why everyone uses an exploit of this magnitude so widely in melee, since I found it very odd long time ago back when I played melee.

I still find it odd today, since wave dashing was not actually adopted as a mechanic in later games.

 

[L337m0j0]

I plan to participate in smash wii u tourneys here (I think they have those here) and just decided to ask you guys, the melee community, why wave dashing was accepted even though its an exploit while im here

My guess at this point is just pure preference then? Some people like the speedy game play, while others like the other games for the base smash mechanics?

 

[ItsChon]

Silly boy. A Wavedash is not a glitch. It's a physics exploit. The developers intentionally programmed your character sliding on the floor into the game. Wavedashing is simply using this mechanic to it's fullest potential. Definition of exploit, taken off google.

ex·ploit
verb
verb: exploit; 3rd person present: exploits; past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited; gerund or present participle: exploiting
ikˈsploit/
1.make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

We're making full use of the mechanic the developers knowingly put into the game, albeit in a way the developers did not quite think of. This is actually a part of the beauty of Melee. How the community, in attempts to get better at the game found out new and different techniques so the game could grow. It's not cheating, or using a bug/glitch, it's exploiting a mechanic that was purposefully put into the game to its fullest extent. If you're not good enough to exploit said mechanic quite yet, well. Haters gun' hate.

 

[L337m0j0]

Thanks 'ItsChon' for a nice logical answer, you have restored my faith in these forums That first guy didn't seem to know what he was talking about

However, here is an example where I find wave dashing to be broken
youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6X-Oo5wBo

Look how far Luigi moves just from 1 wave dash. 3 wave dashes to go from one end of the stage to the other...that is unreal and makes me scratch my head on why it is accepted. Luigi is NOT supposed to be that fast.

Oh and the sliding I think was only meant when you are on the ground. If you dash then stop running, your character slides correct (I am not 100% sure on this)? I don't think it was intended to use from the air like that (which is why they removed the feature when your in the air in games after word, since some characters still slide.)

However, based on what you said as well, it really seems that at this point it is just preference. Melee is not 'better' than the other smash games and the other smash games are not better than melee. It all comes down to personal preference IMO.

Just sucks you melee'ers take the competitive spotlight as opposed to the other games! lmfao

 

[Tattles]

Sakurai and his team knew it existed and left it in the game. Literally everything else in this thread is irrelevant when you consider this.

 

[L337m0j0]

I did not know that Tattles. Very Interesting.

Is that just a rumor or do you have proof they left it in the game?

 

[Tattles]

I did not know that Tattles. Very Interesting.

Is that just a rumor or do you have proof they left it in the game?

Somewhere in an interview.

Basically along the lines of: "We knew it was possible during development, but did not acknowledge it because we didn't think it would have a large impact on the game."

While not necessarily intended, they were fully aware of it's capability and did not change it. Whether they consider it a mistake or not, them leaving it in knowingly is indisputable.

 

[ItsChon]

Thanks 'ItsChon' for a nice logical answer, you have restored my faith in these forums That first guy didn't seem to know what he was talking about

However, here is an example where I find wave dashing to be broken
youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6X-Oo5wBo

Look how far Luigi moves just from 1 wave dash. 3 wave dashes to go from one end of the stage to the other...that is unreal and makes me scratch my head on why it is accepted. Luigi is NOT supposed to be that fast.

Oh and the sliding I think was only meant when you are on the ground. If you dash then stop running, your character slides correct (I am not 100% sure on this)? I don't think it was intended to use from the air like that (which is why they removed the feature when your in the air in games after word, since some characters still slide.)

However, based on what you said as well, it really seems that at this point it is just preference. Melee is not 'better' than the other smash games and the other smash games are not better than melee. It all comes down to personal preference IMO.

Just sucks you melee'ers take the competitive spotlight as opposed to the other games! lmfao

Not only should you take tattles comment into consideration, but it doesn't really matter if you consider it to be broken, or if it even is broken. Meta Knight in SSBB is broken. He's literally in his own tier, and doesn't have a single poor match up. Your question was why they allow a glitch to stay in the game. It's not a glitch so it doesn't really matter. And if you want proof just check the wiki article on Wavedashing on the Super Smash Bros Wiki.

 

[L337m0j0]

Just found this: smashboards.com/threads/dispute-ended-new-sakurai-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

Awesome, I did not know that!

That makes things different like you mentioned Tattles. If the dev accepted it its def not a glitch.

I found my answer on why its accepted! This can be closed lol.

 

[Chinaux]

because it's useful, you go faster than dashing, and you have way better options than dashing and rolling.
Also, your smash Wii U winrate doesn't mean **** in melee. That's like saying your League of Legends ELO is high, so you're really good at Smash. It's irrelevant.

 

[L337m0j0]

Didn't I say don't post if all you are gonna say is 'makes u go faster'

But yea brawl wasn't that great in terms of balance. Meta knight was crazy lol

I find the wii u one way better balance wise, best one yet (in terms of balance) IMO.

It's all opinion people! Do not forget!

 

[L337m0j0]

Is there a way I can close the thread? Or does an admin have to? Sorry, I am new to these boards.

I don't want to flood the forum with threads that are complete.

 

[ItsChon]

because it's useful, you go faster than dashing, and you have way better options than dashing and rolling.
Also, your smash Wii U winrate doesn't mean **** in melee. That's like saying your League of Legends ELO is high, so you're really good at Smash. It's irrelevant.

His point was, despite the fact that it's such a useful mechanic, it's an unintended one/glitch. So why is it allowed in the game? And, to a certain extent he has a point. Peach bomber stalling is a mechanic that's banned in professional tournaments, but it's still in the game. And his post about his Smash Wii U win rate was meant to add credibility to himself so he could have an actual discussion. No need to make such a big deal about it.

 

[Chinaux]

Didn't I say don't post if all you are gonna say is 'makes u go faster'

But yea brawl wasn't that great in terms of balance. Meta knight was crazy lol

I find the wii u one way better balance wise, best one yet (in terms of balance) IMO.

It's all opinion people! Do not forget!

Wavedashing adds a whole other level of gameplay, making the ones who are good, great. And like it was said previously in this thread, it's been put in the game intentionally.

Besides, there are pros who don't use the mechanic anyways, see Aniki.
Smash 4 is balanced because all the characters are good, but that's completely IRRELEVANT to melee.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

@ L L337m0j0 In reguards to your comment that "I can't believe no one has a problem with wave dashing", I think you're just coming at it from a very different perspective than the players who are willing to use wavedashing. Like, yeah, it's an exploit, but since everyone can do it, it's not really unfair at all. I get how you think games should be balanced to not have exploits like wavedashing, and thats probably why it was taken out of brawl and sm4sh. But think about it, if your goal was to be the best player, then wouldn't it be stupid to have that goal and not use every single technique to your advantage?

As far as wavedashing being a bannable "Stupid" technique, smash has some instances of those, and we see in those instances that the truly banworthy techniques ruin the game much more than one person who can wavedash vs another who can't. A good example is how in brawl, meta knight can disappear using what i believe is called the "Infinite cape glitch", or in smash 4 bowser's kart teleportation glitch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkgpQUFvFcQ). Those are truly "Unfair" tactics that should be removed, simply because most characters don't have access to them. If every character in smash could teleport several character lengths ahead, that would be one thing, but since only bowser jr can do it, it's really unfair. Brawl Meta knight's disapearing glitch is unfair because if the meta knight player does it when they're 1 stock ahead (or even 1% ahead in some tournaments) is unfair for what should be obvious reasons: Because only meta knight can do it, and it ruins the competitive spirit of the game by making it a non-competition.

Wavedashing is entirely different from the previously mentioned glitches and exploits because
A: Every character can do it
B: It opens up a whole new level of depth, strategy, and technique to the game. Basically doing the opposite of what the aforementioned glitches are doing
C: It gives the player more control and allows them to use a whole new array of techniques. This can't be a bad thing in a fighting game, to give players more options and thus make the game deeper and give people more to learn and use in combat.

I don't think anyone would ever even consider banning advanced techniques like wavedashing because they're sort of the bread and butter of high level play.

 

[L337m0j0]

Oh I never said once that character specific exploits are ok. I am actually against them lol. That teleporting is super messed up lmfao

I did not even know about those ones in brawl and wii u, I am guessing they will patch the wii u eventually and they should be. (They already fixed some issues with patches on the DS)

And of course my win rate is irrelevant when compared to melee, i even mentioned that it was lmao.

 

[L337m0j0]

But the fact that Sakurai was aware and kept it in, ends the discussion on why its accepted in the first place to be honest.

Thats cool that he kept it in.

 

[L337m0j0]

Just found the explanation to that bowser jr glitch if anyone was interested.

Def a glitch, based on the video and what the guy says its barely playable it seems when you do it. You need to die to activate it as well so its not really useful unless you can really get used to that teleporting, which I guess you could if its consistent.

They will definitely patch this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hlwn3J8_Pk

 

[L337m0j0]

Just found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuswN0PSlJU

omg the way he narrates it sometimes makes it funny lol. All the glitches are not really useful, just cool/weird.

 

[Bones0]

Let's ignore all of the entire arguments concerning developer intent, what constitutes a glitch, and whether things should be banned even if they are outright glitches (Mario's up-B walljump and Ness's Yo-yo glitch remain legal in all tournaments).

Wavedashing refers to airdodging into the ground. If you wanted to ban this action, how would you go about it? Obviously you can say "no airdodging into the ground", but what does that even include? Is it considered a wavedash if I SH and am totally airborne before airdodging? What happens if someone accidentally airdodges? Who is the judge of whether an airdodge constituted a wavedash or not. My opponent might say I wavedashed while I insist I merely airdodged diagonally towards the ground.

If we decide to go ahead and try to ban wavedashing even with all of the problems, what else would we have to ban because it constitutes a physics exploit? Is ledge cancelling an exploit? It certainly doesn't seem like Sakurai designed the ledge to purposefully cancel landing lag. He simply had to choose how to handle that situation and decide to cancel it. This is no different than the mentality he had for WDing. He had to decide what to do if a player airdodged towards the ground. He chose to handle the situation by transferring the momentum onto the ground in landfallspecial. If he designed the game to work that way, what makes it an exploit? Obviously he didn't anticipate people using this mechanic to move around all the time, but he also didn't anticipate people jump cancelling shines. Is that also a physics exploit that should be banned?

WDing is part of the game just as much as everything else. If you don't like it, that's fine, just don't play Melee. You seem butthurt you lost a tourney several years ago to players who used WDing, but I can promise you that was only a small fraction of why you lost. WDing isn't some auto-win technique that immediately upgrades your game as soon as you learn how to perform it with your hands. In fact, most people actually get significantly worse when they first incorporate it into their game because they're spending so much mental focus on doing the WD they are missing tons of more relevant things.

Accept that you are a scrub and try to evolve past one of the most prevalent and elementary perspectives in competitive environments.

 

[anikom15]

Wavedashing looks cool.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Let's ignore all of the entire arguments concerning developer intent, what constitutes a glitch, and whether things should be banned even if they are outright glitches (Mario's up-B walljump and Ness's Yo-yo glitch remain legal in all tournaments).

Wavedashing refers to airdodging into the ground. If you wanted to ban this action, how would you go about it? Obviously you can say "no airdodging into the ground", but what does that even include? Is it considered a wavedash if I SH and am totally airborne before airdodging? What happens if someone accidentally airdodges? Who is the judge of whether an airdodge constituted a wavedash or not. My opponent might say I wavedashed while I insist I merely airdodged diagonally towards the ground.

If we decide to go ahead and try to ban wavedashing even with all of the problems, what else would we have to ban because it constitutes a physics exploit? Is ledge cancelling an exploit? It certainly doesn't seem like Sakurai designed the ledge to purposefully cancel landing lag. He simply had to choose how to handle that situation and decide to cancel it. This is no different than the mentality he had for WDing. He had to decide what to do if a player airdodged towards the ground. He chose to handle the situation by transferring the momentum onto the ground in landfallspecial. If he designed the game to work that way, what makes it an exploit? Obviously he didn't anticipate people using this mechanic to move around all the time, but he also didn't anticipate people jump cancelling shines. Is that also a physics exploit that should be banned?

WDing is part of the game just as much as everything else. If you don't like it, that's fine, just don't play Melee. You seem butthurt you lost a tourney several years ago to players who used WDing, but I can promise you that was only a small fraction of why you lost. WDing isn't some auto-win technique that immediately upgrades your game as soon as you learn how to perform it with your hands. In fact, most people actually get significantly worse when they first incorporate it into their game because they're spending so much mental focus on doing the WD they are missing tons of more relevant things.

Accept that you are a scrub and try to evolve past one of the most prevalent and elementary perspectives in competitive environments.

/thread

 

[ssknight7]

Let's ignore all of the entire arguments concerning developer intent, what constitutes a glitch, and whether things should be banned even if they are outright glitches (Mario's up-B walljump and Ness's Yo-yo glitch remain legal in all tournaments).

Wavedashing refers to airdodging into the ground. If you wanted to ban this action, how would you go about it? Obviously you can say "no airdodging into the ground", but what does that even include? Is it considered a wavedash if I SH and am totally airborne before airdodging? What happens if someone accidentally airdodges? Who is the judge of whether an airdodge constituted a wavedash or not. My opponent might say I wavedashed while I insist I merely airdodged diagonally towards the ground.

If we decide to go ahead and try to ban wavedashing even with all of the problems, what else would we have to ban because it constitutes a physics exploit? Is ledge cancelling an exploit? It certainly doesn't seem like Sakurai designed the ledge to purposefully cancel landing lag. He simply had to choose how to handle that situation and decide to cancel it. This is no different than the mentality he had for WDing. He had to decide what to do if a player airdodged towards the ground. He chose to handle the situation by transferring the momentum onto the ground in landfallspecial. If he designed the game to work that way, what makes it an exploit? Obviously he didn't anticipate people using this mechanic to move around all the time, but he also didn't anticipate people jump cancelling shines. Is that also a physics exploit that should be banned?

WDing is part of the game just as much as everything else. If you don't like it, that's fine, just don't play Melee. You seem butthurt you lost a tourney several years ago to players who used WDing, but I can promise you that was only a small fraction of why you lost. WDing isn't some auto-win technique that immediately upgrades your game as soon as you learn how to perform it with your hands. In fact, most people actually get significantly worse when they first incorporate it into their game because they're spending so much mental focus on doing the WD they are missing tons of more relevant things.

Accept that you are a scrub and try to evolve past one of the most prevalent and elementary perspectives in competitive environments.

Excellent points / solid insight wasted on a 12 year old.

 

[Kadano]

Wavedashing is intended behavior. You can only remove it by implementing barlw airdodges or making landing remove all horizontal movement, which would do away with good things like up-B edge canceling.

 

[Spak]

Is there a way I can close the thread? Or does an admin have to? Sorry, I am new to these boards.

I don't want to flood the forum with threads that are complete.

A moderator needs to lock the thread, so unless you want to message a mod or try reporting the thread, there is nothing you can do.

 

[ItsChon]

*snip*

Jesus. You could have at least taken him out to dinner first.

 

[SSBMLahti]

To answer your main question of:

Please give actual reason why wave dashing is actually a fundamental part of the experience, because to me, it completely ruins it and makes it bland as **** lol

To put it simply without creating a massive wall of text: Wavedashing is a movement option. You can perform nearly any option your character posses out of a wavedash, with some exceptions of course. Wavedashing is also the best option you have for positioning. It also allows some characters to move around faster. When someone has more options available, your opponent now has to come up with an answer to those options, so you can say wavedashing helps the game evolve. You have to adapt to your opponent, so wavedashing forces others to adapt and use new strategies, and the cycle contuse. This advances the game and forces players to think a lot more. This, coupled with the fact that it is a technically demanding option, only adds to the amazing game we call Melee.

The fluidity and myriad of options and movement in this game, partnered with how fast you can POSSIBLY move, the technical precision, and just how insanely thought provoking and mentally taxing this game is, is why Melee is so amazing, and wavedashing only adds to this my man.

I can honestly elaborate on this forever, but I hope this answers your question, because wavedashing only enhances the game and definitely does not make it bland.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I just want to know if there is something I am missing that makes everyone praise Melee so much compared to lets say Smash Wii U. I personally prefer timing my movements and attacks based on real mechanics as opposed to using a game exploit. I used play CS competitively as well, all exploits we found were removed from online play because they gave you an unfair advantage in certain situations. 'Crouch walking' in 1.6 was one that was eventually banned from online play. Smash should be no different when it comes to exploits. I know that if Street Fighter games had some type of exploit like that, it would get patched right away (and it has already happened, they have patched the game to fix exploits.)

First of all, how does wavedashing take away from timing your movements and attacks? It is also a real mechanic since it's an option, and even without wavedashing it is possible time your movements and attacks, so your argument is invalid. The main problem with this statement is that wavedashing is available to every character, and NO ONE has a problem with it, except for yourself. Do you also shun the speedrunning community for applying specific tactics to their games?

I hope I don't come off as rude or condescending, I'm just adding to a discussion about a game I love.

 

[ItsChon]

I hope I don't come off as rude or condescending, I'm just adding to a discussion about a game I love.

This. Just because people have conflicting opinions doesn't mean they're personally attacking you. Well said sir.

 

[AirFair]

Wavedashing gives more options and a faster pace to the game. It's fun.

 

[Acryte]

...

And there was much rejoicing!

 

[ItsChon]

And there was much rejoicing!

I lol'ed.

 

[AirFair]

lmao good work on that picture tho

 

[Acryte]

Seriously Doh. Rally da troops.