Some ZSS changes I'd like to discuss with you guys

[InfamousLuffy]

-Turn U-Throw/D-Throw into DI mixup throws.
-U-Air has a more vertical angle for outer hitboxes.
-Side-B hits twice on shield again.
-F-Smash can be angled.

And to compensate those changes, here's what are friend of mine suggested:
Probably give U-Air a smidgen less KBG, make the throw mixup like Sheik's (doesn't work as percents rise).
Foo , Shokio
Anyone can opinions about this, but please do explain why you agree or disagree.
EDIT 2: Take this with a grain of salt since we didn't give this a lot of thought.

 

[prem]

Why do you want to change the throws when they are really good as it is
why does zss need a buff in killing power with upair when her design is to have somewhat weak killing power
I don't think her side-b needs any changes but sure
What would angling f-smash change for when you use it? I actually only fsmash to edge guard ike and off of a downsmash so honestly I don't think this matters

 

[InfamousLuffy]

Why do you want to change the throws when they are really good as it is
why does zss need a buff in killing power with upair when her design is to have somewhat weak killing power
I don't think her side-b needs any changes but sure
What would angling f-smash change for when you use it? I actually only fsmash to edge guard ike and off of a downsmash so honestly I don't think this matters

IDK I just thought about this with a friend I believe we didn't give it much thought lol

 

[prem]

IDK I just thought about this with a friend I believe we didn't give it much thought lol

there's no point in changing things that don't need fixing lol

 

[Legit]

DI mixup on throws would be nice but she doesn't really need them. Throws are pretty good how they are now.
Uair does not need to kill, and giving it less KBG would make it even better for comboing than it already it is, which would be absurd.
I miss side b hitting twice on shield, but it was kind of OP. I think it's a very underrated move and is fine as is. Very effective if wavebounced.
Fsmash angle would indeed be pointless. I don't use it except outside following up dsmash or punishing predictable recoveries.

Only change I really wanna see is tether recovery buff. The tether nerf + down b nerf hurt our recovery a lot more than necessary imo. Being unable to act for 800 frames upon pulling up from ledge then having 900 more frames of lag upon landing is a bit ridiculous.

 

[prem]

yeah I'm like guaranteed i have the unliked opinion of i think her recovery is still kind of dumb and could be toned down a little. the only times i think its extremely awful is if i have to use downb jump tether just to get there the first time, but in my head if you get hit that far you deserve to be edge guarded for free. else there are a lot of random things you can do on just about every stage that's legal by saving either your jump or downb

 

[InfinityCollision]

The only change I'd make out of the ones listed is raising the angle on uair's early frames, which is something I've been pushing for a bit now. Everything else = nahhhhhhh, you completely missed the things she actually needs and came up with silly things instead.

Raising uair's angle to 80 degrees alone won't make it a decent kill move, even on superfloaties. What it will do is diversify her aerial options a bit and ease open some options that you'd expect to work but currently don't.

Uthrow's angle should be reduced to 80, eliminating dumb chaingrabs and kill confirms on fastfallers. Dthrow should be reverted to weight independent and have its endlag adjusted accordingly (52 frames duration would do it) so that it's useful across the board instead of being mostly useful and then randomly leading to kill confirms on lightweights. Sillyyyyyyyyyyy

ZSS' recovery does not need to be toned down again, tell your opponents to git gud.

You'll see a more detailed post from me on this topic in the not-too-distant future.

 

[InfamousLuffy]

The only change I'd make out of the ones listed is raising the angle on uair's early frames, which is something I've been pushing for a bit now. Everything else = nahhhhhhh, you completely missed the things she actually needs and came up with silly things instead.

Raising uair's angle to 80 degrees alone won't make it a decent kill move, even on superfloaties. What it will do is diversify her aerial options a bit and ease open some options that you'd expect to work but currently don't.

Uthrow's angle should be reduced to 80, eliminating dumb chaingrabs and kill confirms on fastfallers. Dthrow should be reverted to weight independent and have its endlag adjusted accordingly (52 frames duration would do it) so that it's useful across the board instead of being mostly useful and then randomly leading to kill confirms on lightweights. Sillyyyyyyyyyyy

ZSS' recovery does not need to be toned down again, tell your opponents to git gud.

You'll see a more detailed post from me on this topic in the not-too-distant future.

I mean changing the rising angle on uair's early frames is a great thing but Idk what else you would give her, could you please explain to me in a simplified way what else she would need and what do you want her to raise the angle on uairs early frames?

 

[InfinityCollision]

In a nutshell:

-Dysfunctional moves/hitboxes need to have their properties corrected so that they can properly establish their presence and value in her moveset. Usmash, upb, fair, etc. Uair kind of fits here given its near-overlap with nair's functionality.
-Moves with inappropriate reward need their properties adjusted to eliminate problems without gutting their value. Uthrow, dthrow, usmash again, etc.
-Her moveset should be realigned with its original niche to avoid the potential for unnecessary future changes - solutions in search of problems, if you will. This is partially a product of slight adjustments in the right places (which often coincide with the above), partly a matter of educating both players and DT members alike on proper ZSS play and equally important if not moreso, counterplay. Bringing JFalls in was a good step in the right direction towards the latter; there are still various things I think he's yet to fully understand/implement (both strengths and weaknesses), but he's still a step up from any ZSS play I've seen from prior DT members. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Oro's play, but nothing I've seen of Ryker or Sheen has fared any better. Not even in terms of being good players, I just don't think they're executing basic ZSS things properly and that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence regarding their understanding of the character.

There are small things that could be tweaked after that if so desired, but that's the starting point. Those are the things that need to happen first, then everything else can be looked at once there's a fundamentally solid starting point.

Meanwhile I'm skeptical of the merit of throw mixups as part of her design, there's really no good reason for side-b to hit twice on shield, and angling fsmash would do almost nothing for her. At best it makes the move slightly more reliable against small hurtboxes, but I think the general hitbox placement of fsmash is currently fine.

 

[prem]

Actually the only reason i think zss's recovery should be toned down a little is because she physically can make it back from the bottom of fod and stuff with all her resources. i think its very possible to edge guard and do tell my opponetns the proper counterplay every time because its very obviously there, but the fact that you can just jump after you fade back if you kept your second jump or downb into walljump air dodge onto stage from fade back i think is too good for a recovery thats supposed to be so easily punished. else i think its just too long.

in the end though this is mostly opinion and not something i think is particularly important if they change or not because counterplay obviously exists

 

[InfinityCollision]

There is nothing inherently wrong with having a recovery with good distance. That sort of talk leads down the path of arbitrarily making things good/bad/better/worse purely for the sake of doing so, which brings all sorts of problems with it.

Nor is she the only character with such distance on her recovery, and it's worth remembering that movement is ZSS' primary means of protecting herself. This is true both onstage and off. Removing things like down-b refreshing when hit is one thing, but having solid yet simultaneously vulnerable movement options with which to mix up her recovery is well within the boundaries of her core design. To mess with that is to tamper with her core design in a subtle but non-trivial manner for nothing more than "just because" and "normalization". We've already had quite enough of that.

 

[Deleted member]

personally, i think zss is one of like 6 characters that are done for the rest of the development process. i do not like the idea of changing things unnecessarily, and would reserve changes for things that are unanimously considered problematic. with your suggestions in particular, sheiks throw mixup is already a big point of contention across the playerbase, putting it on a faster run speed with a better dashdance window would be insane. the upair change seems unnecessary, and side b was changed to single hit for a reason. angling fsmash would probably hit THROUGH the stage. i would personally motion against any changes to zss at this point, but particularly ones that would buff a character that most people already consider top 10 in the game.

 

[Shokio]

-Turn U-Throw/D-Throw into DI mixup throws.
-U-Air has a more vertical angle for outer hitboxes.
-Side-B hits twice on shield again.
-F-Smash can be angled.

And to compensate those changes, here's what are friend of mine suggested:
Probably give U-Air a smidgen less KBG, make the throw mixup like Sheik's (doesn't work as percents rise).
Foo , Shokio
Anyone can opinions about this, but please do explain why you agree or disagree.
EDIT 2: Take this with a grain of salt since we didn't give this a lot of thought.

Earlier this year, I would've agreed with that stuff, but nah.

Like Infinity said, her having a DI mixup would be a tad much. Getting straight kills off her throws would be eliminating one of her major weaknesses, which is her Marth syndrome and not really being able to get kills of her throws. U-Air, I would like to have a more vertical angle, I agree, but it's not necessary at all. Side-B hitting twice was kinda unnecessary and slightly OP. The F-Smash idea is cool but like other says, it's range would make it too good if you could aim it down toward a ledge.

I agree with Umbreon and I've told him a Ryker about this before; ZSS is a one of the few completed characters. She's almost perfect. I wouldn't like to see any more major nerfs OR buffs really. All she needs left are small tweaks. I love this character as-is and would find any significant changes unnecessary. Hopefully the Dev Team realizes this as well.

The only things I can think of that I want changed are:

1. Lower BKB to Up-Smash
2. Higher KBG for F-Throw
3. More endlag on Bair (Ryker talked to me about this and I agreed with him-- 2 frames)
4. Maybe a damage nerf to both Uair and Dair? I know they don't do a lot of damage at all as-is, but they link into themselves so well that a reduction may still be in order regardless.

 

[ikon]

-Turn U-Throw/D-Throw into DI mixup throws.
-U-Air has a more vertical angle for outer hitboxes.
-Side-B hits twice on shield again.
-F-Smash can be angled.

And to compensate those changes, here's what are friend of mine suggested:
Probably give U-Air a smidgen less KBG, make the throw mixup like Sheik's (doesn't work as percents rise).
Foo , Shokio
Anyone can opinions about this, but please do explain why you agree or disagree.
EDIT 2: Take this with a grain of salt since we didn't give this a lot of thought.

so do you have any justification for any of these suggestions or did you post this for the sake of posting it

 

[prem]

Earlier this year, I would've agreed with that stuff, but nah.

Like Infinity said, her having a DI mixup would be a tad much. Getting straight kills off her throws would be eliminating one of her major weaknesses, which is her Marth syndrome and not really being able to get kills of her throws. U-Air, I would like to have a more vertical angle, I agree, but it's not necessary at all. Side-B hitting twice was kinda unnecessary and slightly OP. The F-Smash idea is cool but like other says, it's range would make it too good if you could aim it down toward a ledge.

I agree with Umbreon and I've told him a Ryker about this before; ZSS is a one of the few completed characters. She's almost perfect. I wouldn't like to see any more major nerfs OR buffs really. All she needs left are small tweaks. I love this character as-is and would find any significant changes unnecessary. Hopefully the Dev Team realizes this as well.

The only things I can think of that I want changed are:

1. Lower BKB to Up-Smash
2. Higher KBG for F-Throw
3. More endlag on Bair (Ryker talked to me about this and I agreed with him-- 2 frames)
4. Maybe a damage nerf to both Uair and Dair? I know they don't do a lot of damage at all as-is, but they link into themselves so well that a reduction may still be in order regardless.

Cool someone else agrees with me that bair needs to be slightly nerfed. I know its supposed to be a good move but i think there are times when its a little too safe and can be spammed for free. my friend probably wasn't doing it perfectly but he honestly just couldn't dd grab me spamming bair and was using marth, which is pretty ridiculous.

as for Uair and Dair I think they are fine. maybe Uair could receive a small damage nerf but the chunli kick is annoying to hit with as is and is effectively just a bad stomp so i think 12% for that is fine. It has enough startup to justify that kind of damage

 

[Foo]

-Turn U-Throw/D-Throw into DI mixup throws.
-U-Air has a more vertical angle for outer hitboxes.
-Side-B hits twice on shield again.
-F-Smash can be angled.

And to compensate those changes, here's what are friend of mine suggested:
Probably give U-Air a smidgen less KBG, make the throw mixup like Sheik's (doesn't work as percents rise).
Foo , Shokio
Anyone can opinions about this, but please do explain why you agree or disagree.
EDIT 2: Take this with a grain of salt since we didn't give this a lot of thought.

Yeah, none of these are good. The reason her fsmash CAN'T be angled is because you'd be able to hit like 10ft under stage with it if it could be.

Upair is a really cool and well functioning move. She isn't supposed to have any vertical kill moves in her design (which is fine) and giving upair random vertical hitboxes would mess with her combo game. Also, it could turn out to be REALLY OP and lead into backwards nair at any DI, which leads into fair at any DI. Her upair is fine as is.


Side-b hitting twice on shield was kind of a pointless gimmick.

50-50 mixups of of throws are dumb. ZSS wouldn't be as bad as sheik because she wouldn't have stuff like tipper upsmash and sheik fair, but it'd be fine. Her throws are GREAT as is.

Uthrow's angle should be reduced to 80, eliminating dumb chaingrabs and kill confirms on fastfallers. Dthrow should be reverted to weight independent and have its endlag adjusted accordingly (52 frames duration would do it) so that it's useful across the board instead of being mostly useful and then randomly leading to kill confirms on lightweights. Sillyyyyyyyyyyy

That would nerf the HELL out of zss. Her throw game is really important to her character right now. I don't see the point of removing her throw options on fast fallers because 1. A ton of characters have the same or BETTER chaingrabs and kills on fast fallers and 2. she still loses to fast fallers anyway.

Uair kind of fits here given its near-overlap with nair's functionality.

I strongly disagree that upair and nair overlap. The differences in knockback, lag and angle are subtle but incredibly important.

personally, i think zss is one of like 6 characters that are done for the rest of the development process. i do not like the idea of changing things unnecessarily, and would reserve changes for things that are unanimously considered problematic. with your suggestions in particular, sheiks throw mixup is already a big point of contention across the playerbase, putting it on a faster run speed with a better dashdance window would be insane. the upair change seems unnecessary, and side b was changed to single hit for a reason. angling fsmash would probably hit THROUGH the stage. i would personally motion against any changes to zss at this point, but particularly ones that would buff a character that most people already consider top 10 in the game.

For the first time ever, I"d actually agree that there's a good chance zss is top 10 and does not need any buffs (she's definitely top 10 if there isn't a really fox heavy meta). However, I don't think she is totally finished. Her recover needs changes. Not buffs, but changes. Depending no the matchup, her recover is usualy either A. Completely free to edgeguard every time, don't bother trying to recover, or B. Nearly impossible to cover just hold ledge and 15% for free, but don't even gain stage control. I'm not realy sure what to change, but up-b tethers should work differently. I like the idea of being able to go super deep and still recover, but being easy to edgeguard, but there's almost not interaction or mixup potential, just a flow chart. (idk, maybe make it so if you are holding B, her ledgegrab hitbox doesn't come out and nerf something else?) Also, it'd be nice if her upsmash was useful.


@People wanting bair to be nerfed: I don't think bair needs to be nerfed. If zss was overpowered, I'd be fine with it, but not otherwise. Bair is insanely good, for sure, but it's fine to have insanely good moves on characters. If we nerf zss bair, let's also nerf, sheik fair, peach dsmash, knee, fox upsmash, lightning kick, mario dsmash, jiggs bair, mk nair, etc. etc. etc. Nerfing all insanely good moves just makes the game more boring imo. Maybe make it 9 frame landing lag, but 10 isn't needed at all imo.

 

[Shokio]

Foo

Adding 2 frames won't make Bair unsafe on shield. It'll just mean that your spacing has to be much more accurate now and ZSS can't run to the other side of the stage by the time their opponent gets our of shield stun.

 

[Foo]

Foo

Adding 2 frames won't make Bair unsafe on shield. It'll just mean that your spacing has to be much more accurate now and ZSS can't run to the other side of the stage by the time their opponent gets our of shield stun.

I know it'd still be safe on shield, but I don't think it needs a nerf. ZSS bair is in line with the rest of the cast. Pretty much every character has at least one move as good as zss bair and that's fine.

 

[prem]

The thing is its super good and super hard to punish. a lot of the moves you listed earlier like fox's upsmash, knee, lightning kicks, mario dsmash can all at least be punished relatively easily and are still really good. I think 2 frames of landing lag would put it more in line with the other good moves while still keeping it as a really strong move

 

[InfinityCollision]

Bair's safety on shield is a non-issue and will show itself as less of a potential issue as the meta develops, not more. Trying to wall with bair is little more than a silly gimmick; there are better things that ZSS could be doing at any given time.

That would nerf the HELL out of zss.

I agree, but matchup numbers don't justify free ledge carries into kill confirms. That's ridiculously poor design, and the design sins of other characters should not be used to justify further mistakes. Like several other changes she's received, her current throws never should have made it into a public build as-is. If her fastfaller matchups are seen as a real issue, there are other, healthier changes that could be made to offset the losses. Raising usmash's trajectory to 80 and reducing the SDI multiplier slightly makes it a solid platform techchase option that can combo fastfallers at low percents. Raising uair's angle has numerous benefits in those matchups. Fixing upb's hitboxes bolsters its ability to set up her reactionary techchasing. Get the idea?

I strongly disagree that upair and nair overlap. The differences in knockback, lag and angle are subtle but incredibly important.

The overlap is obviously not complete, but they're more alike than they have any real reason to be.

 

[Foo]

I agree, but matchup numbers don't justify free ledge carries into kill confirms. That's ridiculously poor design, and the design sins of other characters should not be used to justify further mistakes. Like several other changes she's received, her current throws never should have made it into a public build as-is. If her fastfaller matchups are seen as a real issue, there are other, healthier changes that could be made to offset the losses. Raising usmash's trajectory to 80 and reducing the SDI multiplier slightly makes it a solid platform techchase option that can combo fastfallers at low percents. Raising uair's angle has numerous benefits in those matchups. Fixing upb's hitboxes bolsters its ability to set up her reactionary techchasing. Get the idea?

If other character's moves don't justify it, fine. Nerf all characters with chaingrabs to death on only spacies then either nerf fox into the ground or enjoy an even more top tier fox. However, that is a completely different game. If we are not taking your desired changes to the rest of the cast into account, there isn't good reason to change zss upthrow. Besides, it is easy to DI onto a platform, so they can just ban FD and avoid the chain grab. Even on FD, it's not really unfair. Get a grab at the right %, preform a couple tightly inputed regrabs then go for down-b or fair for a kill. How is that different from getting a good upair at the right percent, nail a few tightly inputted nairs into forward air for a kill? If anything, it's worse because you can still do combos like that with platforms. In fact, it makes it easier in many matchups. Un-DIable death combos are a part of being fox, and a game without them is a totally different game. ZSS doesn't even have a very good version of it.

If a new upsmash and/or up-b worked just as well, I'd be fine with that too, but it'd be the same result, so what was the point?

The overlap is obviously not complete, but they're more alike than they have any real reason to be.

Still strongly disagree. There is more overlap between back air and nair then upair and nair. Weak bair has the same knockback and trajectory as nair. Upair and nair have different knockback, trajectory, landing lag and hitlag. There are clear times where you should nair and clear times when you should use upair and choosing correctly is the difference between ending your combo with a kill, or just getting them offstage/on the ground. The only crossover is that they are both horizontal combo aerials. Her combo game works so well right now, why would they change it just to make two distinct moves slightly more distinct?

Bair's safety on shield is a non-issue and will show itself as less of a potential issue as the meta develops, not more. Trying to wall with bair is little more than a silly gimmick; there are better things that ZSS could be doing at any given time.

ZSS bair being safe on shield is a pretty big deal. It leads to lots of frame traps and mixups. Knee walling is a terrible idea, but knee being safe on shield is a pretty big deal.

The thing is its super good and super hard to punish. a lot of the moves you listed earlier like fox's upsmash, knee, lightning kicks, mario dsmash can all at least be punished relatively easily and are still really good. I think 2 frames of landing lag would put it more in line with the other good moves while still keeping it as a really strong move

Sure, some of the moves I listed are more punishable than zss bair, but others weren't. If you'd like, I could list a bunch of moves just as safe as zss bair. Bottom line is, bair isn't nearly safe enough to spam, it's not lingering, it's telegraphed (if zss is facing away and jumps, guess what's she's gonna do) and it's not that powerful. It's really strong, but not overwhelming. If ZSS bair is too strong to have in PM, the nerf hammer is going to have to come down against like it's 3.5

 

[InfinityCollision]

If a new upsmash and/or up-b worked just as well, I'd be fine with that too, but it'd be the same result, so what was the point?

Better design? The how is just as important as the what when it comes to gameplay and matchup interactions. That's what the past year's worth of patches have purportedly been all about, so I'm a little surprised that I need to explain this.

Will such changes ever see cast-wide implementation? No. "Because Melee" is a thing, chaingrabs are not entirely unavoidable while maintaining diversity in design, and not all chaingrabs are created equal as you noted. However, that should not serve as an argument against improving quality of a design for a character that is relatively open to such slight tweaking. She'll still be quite capable of killing fastfallers off grabs, just not for free.

The era of throw->knee "hype" has long since passed; I see no good reason for such nonsense to spread to another character's moveset. Why not instead round out her options at low percent such that she has options out of and beyond techchasing? Her punish tree at high percents was already fully functional in fastfaller matchups. Why not instead make her matchups against puffballs slightly less frustrating in a way that doesn't simply shift that salt over to her opponent?

Weak bair has the same knockback and trajectory as nair.

Weak bair has less BKB (20 vs 30) and sends at a lower angle (361), as well as dealing less damage. Nair's hitboxes have differing angles: 55, 52, 50, and 47 degrees, respectively.

ZSS bair being safe on shield is a pretty big deal. It leads to lots of frame traps and mixups.

I'm aware, and have written a bit about that very topic within these boards. I called it a non-issue, not insignificant. Those traps and mixups are part of why I think it should stay as is.

 

[Foo]

Better design? The how is just as important as the what when it comes to gameplay and matchup interactions. That's what the past year's worth of patches have purportedly been all about, so I'm a little surprised that I need to explain this.

Will such changes ever see cast-wide implementation? No. "Because Melee" is a thing, chaingrabs are not entirely unavoidable while maintaining diversity in design, and not all chaingrabs are created equal as you noted. However, that should not serve as an argument against improving quality of a design for a character that is relatively open to such slight tweaking. She'll still be quite capable of killing fastfallers off grabs, just not for free.

The era of throw->knee "hype" has long since passed; I see no good reason for such nonsense to spread to another character's moveset. Why not instead round out her options at low percent such that she has options out of and beyond techchasing? Her punish tree at high percents was already fully functional in fastfaller matchups. Why not instead make her matchups against puffballs slightly less frustrating in a way that doesn't simply shift that salt over to her opponent?


Weak bair has less BKB (20 vs 30) and sends at a lower angle (361), as well as dealing less damage. Nair's hitboxes have differing angles: 55, 52, 50, and 47 degrees, respectively.


I'm aware, and have written a bit about that very topic within these boards. I called it a non-issue, not insignificant. Those traps and mixups are part of why I think it should stay as is.

Why would it be different? What about comboing with grab is different than comboing with other moves? Normally the problem with chain grabs is that they are uninteractive and last way too long. ZSS upthrow doesn't have that problem. I also don't see how it's "free." Unless they let you take them to FD, the can just DI onto platforms. Having the chaingrab basically just forces platform tech chases as opposed to regular ones.

Also, my b, every time I've seen someone use "non-issue" they meant "irrelevant" or "unimportant"

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Some good discussion going on here. Healthy debate. Personally, I find uair and nair do overlap in carrying the opponent across the stage. I think a test of raising uair's angle is in order. It'd possibly be op in conjunction with dair/up b and nair fair carries since its work in both. I'm sure if I didn't just read through what you guys have been saying but changing uair's angle is something I've thought about myself.

To me, bair is a non-issue as well. It is very telegraphed and isn't something that comes into play enough for it to be polarizing. Having fsmash angleable up is cool since down angled would obviously be janky.

 

[G13_Flux]

On the subject of Nair and bair, they really only overlap in being possible combo moves and in the fact that the initial hit boxes start in a similar location relative to her body. That's pretty general though, and doesn't highlight the differences. Nair is quite notably your more rewarding combo tool in every way. Better damage, KB stats, and the added electric based hitlag to the opponent make its so, desipite a bit lower angle than uair. Nair is also safe on shield. Uair is a worse option for chains, combos, kill set ups, and damage racking, but it offers quite superior coverage, more meaningful duration, and comes out on frame 4 instead of 6. Uair is also not safe on shield due to higher end lag and less shield stun. This means that while you generally want to aim and hit nair, it's easier (though less rewarding) to hit a uair. This dynamic is good for design and is representative of a set of moves that coexist necessarily, but whose operations are still different enough in a way that compliments good gameplay. I don't think this is an issue at all personally.

InfinityCollision
if you were to buff uairs angle to 80, how do you think it would differentiate their uses? increasing to 80 means that things like uair to fair, and uair to divekick are actually going to be a thing, no to mention that uair > paralzer as a staggered/positional combo approach is a lot more effective. with a much much better combo angle (i believe its currently 60) i can see the dynamic i mentioned above slighlty unwind, and suddenly both moves become valuable kill set ups, which i dont believe would be differentiating their uses much.

Shokio
what kind of damage adjustments are you thinking to uair and dair? i personally dont think that uair needs one (it only does 10 damage atm, and doesnt chain well enough i feel to warrant a damage nerf, at least when comparing to other characters moves of similar function). if dair strong hit was nerfed to 10 or 11, likely with some compensated KB i wouldnt complain, though i stilli dont quite think she needs it per se (i.e. i dont think its problematic), since its a lot more difficult to get the set up or make the read to get the hit. i feel that ideally, after 1 hit of dair, it shouldnt be too dificult to read and react to her spacing to determine if shes going for a bair (something that would create a DI mixup).

Also, are you saying add 2 frames of lag onto bair, such that the overall L cancelled lag is increased by 1? in other words, are we talking 16/8 > 18/9, or are we talking 16/8 > 20/10? i might have gripe if its the later, but the 1st i could see being fair from a design perspective, given her already impressive neutral game. again im not sure its problematic right now, but i can see your argument for it. being -1 on shield as a spacing move is pretty safe and gives her some good wiggle room to force a reaction, though theres plenty of characters with moves that are +/- 0 on shield or better which would need to be addressed first given this perspective, like Foo said.

 

[Bash2King]

Only change to Zero Suit id have is Tether Grab Instead of the regular one... Regular doesnt feel right Is it possible to make her taunts switch her grabs? or can someone just make a Tether Grabbing 3.6 PM Zero Suit?

 

[G13_Flux]

why do you want her to have a tether grab? her neutral game is sick with the regular one. the whole reason they took it out is to make some of her worst MUs less terrible than they were. if you implement a tether grab again, its kind of back tracking.

 

[Bash2King]

why do you want her to have a tether grab? her neutral game is sick with the regular one. the whole reason they took it out is to make some of her worst MUs less terrible than they were. if you implement a tether grab again, its kind of back tracking.

It just feels weird with zero suit not having one...i do like the Regular one but its just eh to the feel of her having a tether grab and couldnt they have buffed it like they buffed Samus' with the less lag and stuff...

 

[G13_Flux]

It just feels weird with zero suit not having one...i do like the Regular one but its just eh to the feel of her having a tether grab and couldnt they have buffed it like they buffed Samus' with the less lag and stuff...

The main problem is that grabs are generally slightly higher commitment moves in neutral already. compared to certain tilts that generally have FAFs around frame 20-25, and certain spaced aerials that characters have with usually well under 10 frames of lag, grabs are usually punishable.

even if ZSS had a buffed tether grab, it would still possess more endlag than a a standard grab, and thus it still moves farther away from being a solid neutral tool. additionally, it makes her OOS options worse, which was really the main drawback to her tether grab. her OOS options, while not terrible, are currently sub par, and worsening them kinda just polarizes her MUs further, which isnt the design track that the PMDT is going on.

in terms of balance, its no doubt in my eyes that the regular grab is better. whether or not its more fun i guess is a matter of opinion. i highly doubt they are going to re-implement the tether honestly however.

 

[Bash2King]

Thanks for explaining it to me.... sucks they cant put it back in

 

[Shokio]

Try to play ZSS vs. Fox or even worse, Falco in 3.0, and then you'll understand why they took the tether grab out.

 

[Bash2King]

Try to play ZSS vs. Fox or even worse, Falco in 3.0, and then you'll understand why they took the tether grab out.

Do i want to know how bad it was?And i still wouldve liked a tether because Space Furries ruin everything