some simple fox questions

[reverie2]

1. What are some good practical responses to rapid jabs (when they spam a ) on your shield against characters like fox/falco/sheik/falcon/etc? wave/shine oos is obviously the best, but does anyone know how well shield grabbing or upsmash OOS work (how much of a frame leniency do we have)?

2. Same as question 1 but you're not shielding. I'm thinking crouch->d tilt or crouch-> shine. Any other suggestions?

3. Fox1 hits a character in a shield with dair then shines immediately. Fox2 hits a character with a dair then shine immediately. Does it take them the exact same amount of frames to perform said moves, and are they free to start moving again at the same time? I think the answer is yes because they experience identical hitlag, and shieldstun is applied only to the defender. But just want to make sure

 

[Archelon]

1. I'm pretty sure you lose if you shield grab, same with u-smash, but I'd need to check to be sure.
2. I think, as you said, d-tilt and shine are the best (if you're close enough to shine, otherwise d-tilt).
3. I'm assuming this is doubles? If it isn't of course it is, and in doubles I believe so.
Sorry I don't have definite answers for you, but I'm pretty sure this is right. No harm checking anyways .

 

[reverie2]

1. I'm pretty sure you lose if you shield grab, same with u-smash, but I'd need to check to be sure.
2. I think, as you said, d-tilt and shine are the best (if you're close enough to shine, otherwise d-tilt).
3. I'm assuming this is doubles? If it isn't of course it is, and in doubles I believe so.
Sorry I don't have definite answers for you, but I'm pretty sure this is right. No harm checking anyways .

Nope, not in doubles. i'm just talking about 2 different scenarios for my 3rd question. I feel like a lot of the time there's a window where shield grabbing works but i dont know how big it is, or if there actually is one (for shielding rapid jabs)

 

[Archelon]

Nope, not in doubles. i'm just talking about 2 different scenarios for my 3rd question. I feel like a lot of the time there's a window where shield grabbing works but i dont know how big it is (or if there actually is one)

Okay then. If you do a late nair on shield, there actually isn't window to shield grab it same with dair. This is part of what makes fox's pressure so good.

 

[tauKhan]

Okay then. If you do a late nair on shield, there actually isn't window to shield grab it same with dair. This is part of what makes fox's pressure so good.

Except nair is 0 advantage on shield, and dair is -6 at best for the fox. So dair shine will barely beat grab thanks to the intangibility on frame 1 in the best case scenario. Then you have to also consider that dair only puts up new hitbox every three frames, so it's very hard to land consistently exactly on the next frame after hitting a shield. Dair is bad on shield.

 

[reverie2]

Except nair is 0 advantage on shield, and dair is -6 at best for the fox. So dair shine will barely beat grab thanks to the intangibility on frame 1 in the best case scenario. Then you have to also consider that dair only puts up new hitbox every three frames, so it's very hard to land consistently exactly on the next frame after hitting a shield. Dair is bad on shield.

What exactly do those numbers represent ? And Archelon , i think you're completely misunderstanding my question. i'm not asking how to shield pressure, I'm asking a frame data question of whether or not dair shining a shield takes more or less frames than dair shining a character (referring to the attacking fox. i'm aware that they'll be different for the defender because hitstun/shieldstun are different).

 

[tauKhan]

The numbers are in the form frame advantage is usually represented: The amount of frames before your opponent can act - frames before you can act. I.e. the opponent gets out of shield stun 6 frames earlier than your dair landing lag ends if you're frame perfect with the dair.

To answer your original question, the timing changes only when whiffing. Hitlag will always be the same on the attacker whatever he happens to hit.

 

[reverie2]

The numbers are in the form frame advantage is usually represented: The amount of frames before you can act - frames before opponent can act. I.e. the opponent gets out of shield stun 6 frames earlier than your dair landing lag ends if you're frame perfect with the dair.

To answer your original question, the timing changes only when whiffing. Hitlag will always be the same on the attacker whatever he happens to hit.

sweet thanks.

 

[reverie2]

Except nair is 0 advantage on shield, and dair is -6 at best for the fox. So dair shine will barely beat grab thanks to the intangibility on frame 1 in the best case scenario. Then you have to also consider that dair only puts up new hitbox every three frames, so it's very hard to land consistently exactly on the next frame after hitting a shield. Dair is bad on shield.

Don't mean to nitpick, but do you mean -6 for the Marth? Formula you mentioned is "The amount of frames before you can act - frames before opponent can act".

Amount of frames before marth can act = -6. Amount of frames before fox can act = 0. -6 - 0 = -6 . Marth starts grab on -6 to get shined on frame 1 by fox due to intangibility.

 

[tauKhan]

Oops, I had the terms in the wrong order, fixed it now. Positive value is supposed to mean advantage and negative disadvantage of course.

 

[Archelon]

Except nair is 0 advantage on shield, and dair is -6 at best for the fox. So dair shine will barely beat grab thanks to the intangibility on frame 1 in the best case scenario. Then you have to also consider that dair only puts up new hitbox every three frames, so it's very hard to land consistently exactly on the next frame after hitting a shield. Dair is bad on shield.

Thanks for telling me. This will really help . I think this false knowledge must of come from previously being a falco main.

 

[Archelon]

What exactly do those numbers represent ? And Archelon , i think you're completely misunderstanding my question. i'm not asking how to shield pressure, I'm asking a frame data question of whether or not dair shining a shield takes more or less frames than dair shining a character (referring to the attacking fox. i'm aware that they'll be different for the defender because hitstun/shieldstun are different).

I'm sorry. I did misunderstand you.

 

[pagedMov]

just gonna answer 3:
drillshine is only safe on shield if the move is fresh
and unless you're m2k you aren't gonna know if it's fresh or not
so don't do it

 

[tauKhan]

just gonna answer 3:
drillshine is only safe on shield if the move is fresh
and unless you're m2k you aren't gonna know if it's fresh or not
so don't do it

1. drill is never safe vs fast OoS options
2. Staling barely matters, you'd have to have very staled drill for it to do less shieldstun, which is very unlikely.