Some Questions about in Game Techniques

[Farbeitfromme]

Hey all! I'd like to ask a few questions about the intended in game options for Smash Wii U, specifically, air dodging, spot dodging, shielding and for some characters, counter. How important are these techniques to good play? I notice the high level cpus use them constantly, and while I realize fighting cpus is not ideal, I want to learn how and when to use them before I move on to more advanced techniques.

So as for specific questions, I'll start with air dodging.

1. I've heard there are some negative consequences for overusing this. What are they and how should they affect my playstyle?
2. Should I practice air dodging a lot, or should I focus on aerial moves instead, or something else entirely? Cpus use this with seemingly inhuman reaction time. Do I have to get that good, or should I rely on other techniques?

As for Spot Dodging:

3. Is this something I should be practicing? It seems like it would take incredible reaction time to use it well, but that might just be I'm not used to the game.
4. If I should use it, what kinds of attacks should I use it for? Using it for every arrow or thunder bolt seems like overkill, but is it good for things like smash attacks or strong special attacks?

And Shielding:

5. How often should I be shielding? I know that it is punishable by grabs, and have felt that acutely in my battles with cpus. But I know it must have its place. I've found it useful against easily telegraphed moves, for instance.
6. How important are perfect shields? I don't know if I've ever pulled this off, but I know it's a thing.

Finally, since I use Little Mac sometimes, counter:

7. What kinds of attacks should I try to counter? Should I wait for highly telegraphed attacks, or can I try to anticipate when the opponent is going to attack? Countering without reflecting a move seems silly, but sometimes it seems like trying to use the move proactively is the only way to score a good hit.

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but any help would be much appreciated! If you think you can help with even one of these, please feel free to post! Thanks in advance!

Edit: Sorry if this belongs in another subforum, like competitive Discussion, I'm not really familiar with what goes where yet...

 

[Nohbl]

1. I've heard there are some negative consequences for overusing this. What are they and how should they affect my playstyle?

The consequences pertain to Ultimate, where the invulnerability frames lessen for repeated use. Still, it's not so free to use in Wii U either.

1. For one, airdodging while about to land on the ground, or more generally while you are still in the airdodging animation, will incur landing lag, where you will not be able to act for a bit of time, like putting up your shield for a second.
2. The second bad thing about airdodging is if you are about to get hit by an opponent, they may guess that you are about to airdodge, in which case they will just wait for you to do so, and then hit you as soon as your invulnerability runs out. Airdodging is very good in this game, which makes people need to look out for their opponent's pattern of its use. Overusing airdodge may hurt you thus, but otherwise, there's almost no penalty for using it.

2. Should I practice air dodging a lot, or should I focus on aerial moves instead, or something else entirely? Cpus use this with seemingly inhuman reaction time. Do I have to get that good, or should I rely on other techniques?

1. Airdodging is very easy, so there's no need to practice it. What you will need to get a feel for is how long your airdodge lasts---both the entire animation, and the number of invulnerability frames (where your character flashes white). Both of these are different for different characters. You can look up this information online as well experimenting in game to get the instinct for it. As I said, it's important to understand that airdodging close to the ground incurs a penalty, landing lag.
2. Aerial attacks also incur landing lag when the character lands but the animation isn't yet completed. You should practice short-hopping and full-hopping with Link, throwing out different aerials, and then trying to shield or move after landing, to get a feel for how long each one lasts; because your opponent can punish your landing lag and you won't be able to defend yourself.
3. As I said, your opponent can either try to hit you immediately, or wait for you to airdodge first. It soon becomes a matter of prediction rather than reaction, so trying to perfect your reaction time isn't the end all be all.

As for Spot Dodging:

3. Is this something I should be practicing? It seems like it would take incredible reaction time to use it well, but that might just be I'm not used to the game.

1. You just aren't used to it. It is something you should be practicing just because you might mess up the input, though it isn't too difficult to do. If you have another controller, you can go into training mode and pick Captain Falcon or Ganondorf as your opponent; control the character with your other controller, and use their neutral special. You will get used to the timing of the moves quickly, and thus get the hang of spotdodging them. Once you get a basic grip on spotdodging like that, you can try to react to a computer opponent on various levels of difficulty. But like I said with airdodging, it isn't just reacting to moves, but also predicting when they may come out, because some moves are just too quick to react to.
2. Here's a tip: if you shield, and press down, you will spot dodge.

4. If I should use it, what kinds of attacks should I use it for? Using it for every arrow or thunder bolt seems like overkill, but is it good for things like smash attacks or strong special attacks?

Using it on a laggy move like Ike's forward smash would be good, because you may incur too much shieldstun from the move hitting your shield to punish your opponent for using it. Spotdodging will likely be faster than shielding, and waiting until you can drop your shield. You will need to use it when you get cornered by Marth or Lucina's shieldbreaker neutral special, because shielding them may not be an option.

You probably shouldn't spot dodge something like Ganondorf's down special, because the hitbox is large and continuous---it may get you after the invulnerability ends. You can't spot dodge Charizard's flamethrower, because it will get you as soon as the invulnerability ends. And spotdodging Charizard's side special, Flare Blitz, may not work, but it's better than shielding it because it will do a lot of damage to your shield.

5. How often should I be shielding? I know that it is punishable by grabs, and have felt that acutely in my battles with cpus. But I know it must have its place. I've found it useful against easily telegraphed moves, for instance.

Shielding is very powerful in this game, so using it liberally isn't too bad. You can grab out of your shield by pressing grab or attack while shielding, and that's very good for punishing dash attacks that don't cross you up (i.e., let your opponent move behind you, e.g. Samus dash attack). You can shield in many different situations, too many to list: while waiting by the ledge, while your opponent is on it; while expecting an attack from the air, while on the ground, like Ganondorf's dair.

6. How important are perfect shields? I don't know if I've ever pulled this off, but I know it's a thing.

Perfect shields are the best defensive option in the game, though not quite so easy to pull off. Simply put, it is putting up your shield the instant before you are about to get hit by something. The attack will be nullified, you won't be put in shield stun nor stuck in shield, and so will be able to act pretty quickly after using it. Just like you can spotdodge Falcon Punch, you can perfect shield it too. You can perfect shield any attack, including Marth's shieldbreaker and Samus's charge shot. If you can do it, there's no reason not to.
You will see level 9 CPUs use it in abundance. It sounds like hitting a piece of a drum set.

7. What kinds of attacks should I try to counter? Should I wait for highly telegraphed attacks, or can I try to anticipate when the opponent is going to attack? Countering without reflecting a move seems silly, but sometimes it seems like trying to use the move proactively is the only way to score a good hit.

Countering prevents you from taking damage, but you will be stuck in the attack animation. Using it offstage to avoid, for example, getting hit by an arrow may be just as detrimental to your recovery as taking the hit. Using it on stage, such as against a Samus charge shot, may just be an easier but laggier way of shielding the attack---perfect shielding and spot dodging are both better options, but less lenient in timing, and so more difficult to perform than a counter.
You will want to use a counter when the opponent is nearby; otherwise, you won't hit anything, and may even get punished for it. Countering weaker moves generally has less knockback (i.e. power) than countering strong moves---the difference between countering a jab, and an fsmash.

To summarize, perfect shielding is the best grounded defensive option, followed by spot dodging, but it's more tricky to execute than spotdodging, so less likely to be used. Airdodging is good and shielding is good but predictability is really the main thing that will turn its use against you.
That's about it.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

As for lvl 9 CPU's, I heard that they react to your button presses when you try to attack them. That is how they are able to dodge so much.

For dodging in general, they are good options but I would not get too comfortable with using them because you may form a habit where you spam them when you are scared of getting and an opponent can easily pick on that, punish you, and finish a game fast. I tend to go for them in reaction to the start-up of a move rather than guessing since I'm not a fan of that. You'll know when you are rolling too much if a Smasher says that you roll more than a bakery (a common joke since Smash 4 players in For Glory, casual games with people who do not play this game competitively, or even tourney players do a lot).

The reason I think that players still do this is because our scene's top players still get away with this so a majority of the playerbase follows along.

Just be careful and think about your actions before you do them. Do the same thing every time you get hit (easier when watching replays of your matches). Question why, and what your prior actions along with your opponent's action led to that situation. It is also good to that mid-match so you can adapt to your opponent and not be predictable.

Last two things about shielding/dodging is that you can jump cancel your shield with a jump input. If you are fast enough or get the timing down, you can jump cancel into special moves or smash attacks (common uses are up smash and up b). You can even cancel your roll (when yoir character start to roll) into a grab which is called a boost grab and can extend your grab range.

As for counters, they can be used in a variety of ways. An easy use is vs strong attacks to net kills, stage advantage, or damage. Some players use their counters to edgeguard recoveries since they usually have a hitbox and dping it vs Ness can score a kill since his recovery is known to do a lot of damage.

You can counter weak attacks to throw you opponent off. Since players usually expect their opponents to shield or dodge when they attack, you can use a counter as substitute for those mechanics and score some damage in the process. This can make the opponent respect and think twice about running into your face pressing buttons.

Another thing is that not dodging alot can throw your opponent off since it may be what they are used to seeing others do. Dodging and rolling can be seen as the auto pilot defense mechanic in this game to some players. It gets used a lot even when it's not needed, but there are opponents who can set up situations where you are offstage and the only way you can get out is by airdoding. That right there is where mindgames come in and you havr to decide if you want to risk using an airdodge in anticipation of an attack that will lose you the stock/game or will you be patient and try to react to it?

Some moves are too fast to react to for some so you will have to guess. Other times, airdodging or using a counter will put you in a bad position where you can no longer recovery. Whatever you do, try not to form a habit where you airdodge into a stage or on a platform when you get hit or combo'd. That sets you up for easy damage.

Oh, I just remembered the reason I decided to post. I was going to share this link with you.

Kuroganehammer.com

This site has all of the frame data knowledge and more tbat the community knows of. This guy also has a phone app with the same information as the website. If the link does not work just google "kurogane hammer smash 4" and you should find it.

This next link is suppose to have gifs of every character's attacks, and other animations along with hitboxes, hurtboxes, invulnerabilty, invincible, etc. The site is suppose to work on mobile too. I'm saying suppose since I never used this site (tried on my phone and it doesn't work).

https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/index.html#/v1

This may seem like a lot but it's just me rambling on a few points and mechanics of the game when this game has more indepth stuff to learn about. Hope this stuff helps you and good luck.

 

[Farbeitfromme]

Thank you for the input, Nohbl and NINTENDO Galaxy! I’m finding it very helpful as I practice. Right now I’m focusing on getting my reaction time fast enough to pull off these techniques during actual fights and it’s slow going, but every success is encouraging.

Airdodging is probably the one I’m least comfortable with, but knowing there’s no penalty in Smash 4 unless I use it near the ground is helpful. In situations where I get hit, I’m getting better at teching, so I don’t tend to airdodge too early there. Getting the timing right for avoiding attacks is hard, but as my reaction time and my ability to anticipate improves, it’ll hopefully get easier.

Shielding at the right time and spot dodging are taking work as well, but I find that for easy to anticipate attacks, like Ness’s PK Thunder tackle and Charizard’s Flare Blitz, I can do it, and I’ve even pulled off some perfect shields. I’m sure I could use it on some other moves as well, but I have no one to Falcon Punch me in the face repeatedly, as fun as that sounds, and controlling two characters at once is rather cumbersome. But I’ll continue to practice nonetheless.

I realize that using these techniques in actual fights when I’m not anticipating these attacks will be a challenge, though, so I can’t get too confident. I also find that when I’m using either shielding or spot dodging, I forget about the other, so knowing which one to use in each situation will take some time.

Since I usually use Link, countering hasn’t come up much, but I find when I play Little Mac it’s very similar to spot dodging, with a little more time to get it right. I recognize I should not use it unless there’s a chance of hitting someone, preferably buy reflecting a strong attack.

As to overusing dodging and shielding, I see your point, NINTENDO Galaxy. I’m finding that many attacks are just too fast to respond to, and other techniques are required to address them. I will try to figure out the right balance, as well as avoid rolling too much, as much as I like baked goods. I definitely feel you about reading individual situations too. In my bouts in 64, Melee, and Brawl, before I really tried to improve, I mostly threw out attacks and let chaos ensue, but now I’m really trying to assess what’s going on and why. It definitely takes practice, but it’s helping a lot.

Thanks for the idea about countering for edgeguarding purposes. I can definitely see how it would work for Ness, and there are a couple other characters whose recoveries rely on strong, highly telegraphed attacks. I’ll try to keep that in mind while playing a character with counter.

Thanks for the link! It works fine. I will try to figure out how to make this information useful, as it seems a little esoteric to me right now. It should be good for figuring out a character’s best moves, as well as hitboxes for various attacks I will have to use and respond to.

In any case, thanks again for the help. If I have any questions in the future, I’ll definitely bring them here. My journey is just beginning, but I’ve already made a lot of progress.