Some problems in today's tournament

[Lightosia]

Hey guys!
I've entered an offline tournament today and I had some problems when playing some matches....

1st- VS Ice climbers- The IC I fought is probably the Top in my country (Brazil). I had a hard time whit him because he knows how to get a 0% kill using chaingrabs only. I know that I have to avoid being grabbed, but it isn't so easy...

2nd- VS Yoshi- I heard Ness has an advantage over him, doesn't he? But I had also a hard time fighting this Yoshi. I dunno why, but I couldn't use my aerials as I usually do... One thing I'm proud was my use of counterpicking! I won in Luigi's Mansion! Woot!

3rd-Counterpicking some characters: What do you say I should use VS a Marth:
Pikachu, Luigi or G&W? (No, I don't want to use Snake or other characters beside these)
And VS a Meta Knight?


Soooo.....

I want tips from you all, because next week there will be another tournament, and I'll win using Ness!!

 

[paper otavio]

Dude, where did you find a tournament?

 

[Lightosia]

Anime Dreams? There ARE tournaments in Brazil. There is also a Smash forum for Brazilians! ^^

 

[Earthbound360]

1. Counterpick a stage with rough terrain, stage hazards, or changes. Onett or Norfair are good if they're not banned.

2. Evennnnnnnn. His aerials are actually pretty ranged which is why you had a hard time in the air.

3. I'd go G&W.

 

[CometStar]

VS ICs - The most important aspect to fighting Ice Climbers is to separate them and gimp Nana. This will make the match much easier as the IC player can no longer 0 to death chaingrab until his/her next stock. I'll edit this with more info later cause I seem to be drawing a blank at the moment as to other strategies against IC.

VS Yoshi - The reason Ness is considered to have an slight advantage over Yoshi is that many of Ness's attacks seem to outpriortize Yoshi's. You have a many options open to you in this matchup because of this.
Yoshi's can be really campy (so much eggs) but your PKT has enough versatility to beat their strategy. Another campy strategy that yoshi will use is pivot grabs. He'll run from you and as soon as you chase him he'll do a pivot grab or two or three. Approaching Yoshi isn't recommended, just get him approach you.
When Yoshi approaches he'll most likely be using bair or nair to get to you followed by another attack whether it be jab or upsmash. Yoshi's bair approach is pretty much telegraphed to you because when he approaches in this way he exposes his back to you and that should tell you he's going for a bair. Simply shield these attacks and punish.
PKF is fun to use in this matchup as Yoshi seems to have alot of trouble with it. One use for PKF is to outpriortize their side B egg roll, make sure you have a followup attack to fully capitalize on their mistake for using it.
Ness's aerial capabilities go even with yoshi's so keep your spacing and you should do fine. Yoshi has three moves he can spike with so keep that in mind as you recover. Though Yoshi has some good aerial capabilities, he can't get anymore vertical height after he's used his double jump. This means that a mere footstool is all that is needed to gimp him.

I'll update with dealing with MK if someone else doesn't do it first. On a last note if you have any vids upload them and I'd be happy to critique them.

 

[paper otavio]

Oh god, I forgot all about Anime Dreams.....
It's probably because I only go to Fanmixcon in Campinas.......(And I never read the papers the people give me when I enter)

 

[Uffe]

Hey guys!
I've entered an offline tournament today and I had some problems when playing some matches....

1st- VS Ice climbers- The IC I fought is probably the Top in my country (Brazil). I had a hard time whit him because he knows how to get a 0% kill using chaingrabs only. I know that I have to avoid being grabbed, but it isn't so easy...

2nd- VS Yoshi- I heard Ness has an advantage over him, doesn't he? But I had also a hard time fighting this Yoshi. I dunno why, but I couldn't use my aerials as I usually do... One thing I'm proud was my use of counterpicking! I won in Luigi's Mansion! Woot!

3rd-Counterpicking some characters: What do you say I should use VS a Marth:
Pikachu, Luigi or G&W? (No, I don't want to use Snake or other characters beside these)
And VS a Meta Knight?


Soooo.....

I want tips from you all, because next week there will be another tournament, and I'll win using Ness!!

I hate the IC's just because of that chain grab. As for Yoshi, anything particular he was doing? If rel_12 is still around here, maybe you can ask him for some advice. His Yoshi is pretty good. As for Marth, the only thing really tough about him is his grabs. You can beat Marth with Ness, though it's not suggested. Still, go with what EB360 said.

 

[paper otavio]

For IC, use that one move hyphen smash I think, where you run and use up smash.
Also use PKF, Dair on him(even when he is on the floor), and other aerials like Nair to avoid his Fair and some other things. Grab only when you can. (120% damage doesn't mean nothing when the guy knows 0% death combos)

I don't really know anything for Yoshi......

For 3, I suggest using Game & Watch or Pikachu. both are the best out of the ones you stated. Luigi isn't too good in my opinion.
Use Pika's neutral b to make the guy come to you and down smash/Thunder(I recommend down smash) on the right time. You probably already know thunder is better for when he is recovering and down smash when he rolls around you or spot dodges.(Everyone will probably roll at least once.)
I don't play Game & Watch since Brawl, so I don't know what to do except picking BF and spamming your turtle.
I don't play Luigi at all so.......

For MK, umm.......Game & Watch is probably the best one for this match.(Then again, being 3rd on the tier list and being slightly broken, pretty much makes your question useless)

 

[Earthbound360]

Nah, Ness can handle MK just fine.

 

[Uffe]

^^^ It's hard, but not impossible.

Just be sure to stay away from the edges. Don't bother trying to spike MK unless you see an opening. Like if he already used a Shuttle Loop for whatever reason, go ahead, but avoid that Galaxia of his. Also, for the Mach Tornado, just shield that stuff unless you're some PK Fire specialist. That'll get the job done. Maybe this video can give you some inspiration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cYvrscLOV4

 

[paper otavio]

Nah, Ness can handle MK just fine.

Not really, MK's aerials come out faster than Ness' and affects the victim more.

 

[Lightosia]

1. Counterpick a stage with rough terrain, stage hazards, or changes. Onett or Norfair are good if they're not banned.

Well, when I played him, It's was a free-play, so I could only go to Neutral Stages.
I think our rules ban both stages. (Or if it doesn't, nobody uses them... )

VS Yoshi - The reason Ness is considered to have an slight advantage over Yoshi is that many of Ness's attacks seem to outpriortize Yoshi's. You have a many options open to you in this matchup because of this.
Yoshi's can be really campy (so much eggs) but your PKT has enough versatility to beat their strategy. Another campy strategy that yoshi will use is pivot grabs. He'll run from you and as soon as you chase him he'll do a pivot grab or two or three. Approaching Yoshi isn't recommended, just get him approach you.
When Yoshi approaches he'll most likely be using bair or nair to get to you followed by another attack whether it be jab or upsmash. Yoshi's bair approach is pretty much telegraphed to you because when he approaches in this way he exposes his back to you and that should tell you he's going for a bair. Simply shield these attacks and punish.
PKF is fun to use in this matchup as Yoshi seems to have alot of trouble with it. One use for PKF is to outpriortize their side B egg roll, make sure you have a followup attack to fully capitalize on their mistake for using it.
Ness's aerial capabilities go even with yoshi's so keep your spacing and you should do fine. Yoshi has three moves he can spike with so keep that in mind as you recover. Though Yoshi has some good aerial capabilities, he can't get anymore vertical height after he's used his double jump. This means that a mere footstool is all that is needed to gimp him.

I'll update with dealing with MK if someone else doesn't do it first. On a last note if you have any vids upload them and I'd be happy to critique them.

What you said is exactly how he played. Didn't use Egg Roll, though...

And I don't have uploaded vids, they only like to record finals...



Thanks for all the tips! I'll do my best next week!

 

[paper otavio]

Tell us how it goes.
And what are the prizes for first and others?

 

[Lightosia]

Well, this tournament is a little different because it's in an Anime Event. There are 4 days of events (Until Sunday). The winners from each day (Today was a Marth user, Aisengobay) will fight in the Sunday for the great prize! (They said it was a backpack full of anime things...).


The other tournaments are like any others: 65/25/10% of the cash of the registration...

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness' aerials can actually go well against MK's, even if his are a bit faster, Ness' have more power. He's easy to KO and his tornado is completely shut down by a lot of Ness' moves. Also, it IS possible to spike MK. Spiking the SL is very easy in fact. Problem is, MKs usually never use it in an open situation.

 

[Lightosia]

PKT2 kills MK soooo early! It's so good when it happens!

Uffe, I already saw that vid. It's very good, mah boi...

 

[PK-ow!]

Yoshi should be a **** matchup.

I mean, Ness can and has taken out four-story dinosaurs some thousand times his mass. Several times. In one day. Without food.
EDIT: And the mythical Kraken for God's sake. Several times. In two individually uninterrupted passages oversea (although I used food).


I think the only way to have a decent chance against ICs with Ness (which honestly will *always* be bad for us) is to spam rising aerials... and somehow mix up your landing. Possibly with Magnet stalls. Perhaps at just the right height, you could get the wind effect to repel the duo after they whiff their mistimed grab (or if they just stand their waiting for ya).

If they adapt by going for an attack, then your job is done. Better than eating the grab.

Total theorycraft. As is my wont.


Back to the Yoshi matchup... if the advantage is the priority on the aerials... is there a way to analyze that relationship, on a high level... with the history of other fighting games, as a way of reaching the optimal playstyle? Like... what became 'perfect play' for some character X who has "slight priority advantage" over character Y, in broad range of fighter games (or maybe just Melee) and characters in them X and Y? What high-level description is true across all such cases, if any?

... this question is simpler in my head. D:

 

[Uffe]

If Yoshi does his Egg Roll, go ahead and PK Jibaku right into it or use your Yo-yo to stop him in his tracks.

 

[Green-Machine]

i SH-Dair usually as it jumps over his egg and i come down quickly ready for an attack

 

[Lightosia]

I've been thinking...
Does Pk Jibaku have more priority than MK's glide attack? It would be very good if it has.

 

[Earthbound360]

PKT2 has invulnerability so it pretty much beats anything that doesnt have wierd priority like PKT's tail.

 

[Green-Machine]

I think it does because pk missile does major damage and has almost no end-lag

 

[CometStar]

I've been thinking...
Does Pk Jibaku have more priority than MK's glide attack? It would be very good if it has.

I'd imagine it would. A sweetspotted bair has the same priority as the glide attack so you can surprise a Meta player in that regard just don't expect it to do damage. I generally elect to do a PKT if their gliding towards me. They only have the options of gliding in a different direction or wasting their glide attack and leaving themselves open at that point.

I think it does because pk missile does major damage and has almost no end-lag

Wut? PKT2 has a ton of end lag.

 

[FireKirby7]

Wut? PKT2 has a ton of end lag.

Lies.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
That's not even a full lag cancel. If you do a perfect lag cancel, you get seemingly NO lag. Same thing with PKT. It's what makes a perfectly executed heavens descent unpunishable.

 

[Green-Machine]

exatcly guys pk missile has no end-lag you can instantly roll away if hes getting too close for comfort

 

[CometStar]

I'm talking about without the lag cancel though. Without it you leave yourself extremely open. Its generally not a chance I take if I know there is some possibility I'll get grabbed. I still beg to differ that PKT2 doesn't have lag.

 

[Green-Machine]

If you know how to use the lag cancel USE PK missile it is amazing if you can use lag cancel!!!


USE IT USE IT USE IT

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm talking about without the lag cancel though. Without it you leave yourself extremely open. Its generally not a chance I take if I know theirs some possibility I'll get grabbed. I still beg to differ that PKT2 doesn't have lag.

The lag on PKT2 still isnt enough to be severely punished for most characters. The only way you will be screwed is if you PKT2 right into a shield grounded.

 

[paper otavio]

Wut? PKT2 has a ton of end lag.

Actually it only has lag at some locations.
I think one of the guides explained this...

Edit: About the Ness vs MK thing, I guess it would really depend on the better player in the air. I believe Ness would need to rack up damage on MK or even try to beat him in the air and MK requires distance and gimping abilities to have a succesful stock.

Also, doesn't MK have the best air game?

 

[Green-Machine]

MK does have combos in the air but ness' attacks are overall better to me

 

[PMKNG]

Uhh there wasn't much input on IC here, and my cousin had perfected the whole IC chain grab thing and I got used to it.
Lets see, I'd say rely on quick attacks to rack up damage, gimp nana whenever possible (footstool, spike, anything) Pk fire can be useful since nana doesn't always shield in sync, so it can knock them out of order.
And ABBUUUSEE aerials, I'm sure that it isn't very hard to keep ice climbers in the air. Juggle them and they cant chain grab you.
Thats all i can remember right now, gl