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Some General Mewtwo Advice

MookieRah

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I've been posting some stuff in the matchup impressions thread to spread some old-school general M2 advice to all the new Sm4sh players, but my advice is somewhat off-topic because I am talking about stuff M2 should do in general, and nothing matchup specific. It should be noted, I don't have a 3DS, a Wii U, and haven't even played Sm4sh. My advice is based on observing some M2 Sm4sh videos and my pre-existing melee M2 knowledge (and smash theory in general). I will never give very specific information, because I don't have it, and often I will pose questions rather than answer things. All that said, don't write me off as this is solid advice and can be applied to every smash game (as well as other fighting games to various degrees).

Mewtwo is better suited as a somewhat defensive, reaction based character. This is true in melee, as well as Sm4sh. M2 isn't fast enough, either with run speed, air speed, and his attack speed to be some kind of rush down or offensive pressure oriented character. He has moves that have good reach and can be used to zone people out, but they aren't very fast/spam-able. He also is light, large target, making him susceptible to early KOs. What this translates to is that you need to reserve your options until you know they will work. You do this through good movement and spacing, and by keeping your opponent in your optimal range and preventing them from getting inside. This isn't to say there are never times when M2 goes on the offense, but M2 should remain very patient and focus on not overcommitting while in neutral. If you don't know what I mean by neutral, keep reading and you'll find out.

What does all that mean exactly? It means you have to think about what your options are in every circumstance. If you have the option to do something that guarantees an advantage, it's almost always better to take the guaranteed option instead of a prediction based mix-up, even if it's only a small advantage. The best example of going for the guaranteed option I can think of is down throw follow-ups. I'll dissect this situation to show you what I mean.

Down throw does not combo into anything. Your opponent always has the means to avoid your followup and even punish you for it. While it's very tempting to follow up with a fair, know that it will likely not land against a good opponent. Instead, your best option is to be patient and react to what your opponent does. In the worst case scenario your opponent DIs away to escape from you. That's fine, just walk/dash (but don't run) forward, take all that valuable stage he is giving you. Park yourself in your optimal range and then you will find yourself with more stage control, limiting the options your opponent has while reserving your own. If your opponent does not DI away, get within optimal range and wait. Judging from videos people either will air-dodge or attack. Both can be punishable on reaction with a shield grab or dash grab. If they look as if they will land without doing anything, it's still in your advantage as you have time to make a move before your opponent has fully landed. The number one thing to look out for is your opponent rolling through you/getting behind you. It's fairly easy to cover these options if it is priority #1.

From the above example, you should be able to think of how that applies to M2 in general, as a lot of his attacks don't really combo in Sm4sh. Instead of just throwing out a move that you really, really want to land, think about all the options you have, and try to figure out what will give you the biggest advantage with the lowest risk. You should also focus on gaining and maintaining stage control.

This is all fine and good, but what do you do when neither player has stage control? This state is what is known as neutral. In neutral, M2 should focus on closing off as much stage from your opponent without using risky moves, or commitments. This means that you shouldn't randomly dash attack or dash grab your opponent, something I see A LOT in current M2 Sm4sh videos. You should use movement that reserves options, such as walking or quick dashes. Running is not ideal, because once you are running you limit what you can do. You want to be able to react quickly to your opponent's commitments. If your opponent is not making commitments of his own, that is when you need to start poking.

Pokes are moves that are fairly safe that can be used to put some pressure on your opponent. The goal of the poke is not necessarily to hit your opponent, as much as it is to get them to give up some stage or prompt them to attack you. Hitting with a poke; however, is a nifty bonus when it happens. In Melee M2 could poke with dtilt and to some extent ftilt. Dtilt still seems to be great in Sm4sh, but it suffers from the same problem it has in melee, it doesn't cover opponents that will jump in on you. Ftilt, or angled up ftilt, is great for poking when you think your opponent plans to jump in on you. It's to be noted that you will first need to identify what is a safe range to throw out ftilt, so that you don't get punished for using it.

That is all for now, but I hope this is helpful to some of the newer players here that aren't aware/don't know these concepts.
 

Nobie

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This is really cool, and sound advice not just for Mewtwo but all characters in general.

One thing I would want to add is that "safest and most reliable" option does not necessarily mean cowering in fear and not trying to just avoid losing. I don't know if you'd agree, but I feel that, because Mewtwo is so weak in disadvantage, or while being comboed and juggled, if you become too afraid of attacking the opponent for fear that you might have the tables turned on you, then you've already lost. That probably applies to just about any matchup with any character, but I think it's especially the case with Mewtwo.

Slowly eke out an advantage, but don't be so afraid of everything that you end up rolling yourself towards the ledge.
 

MookieRah

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Using safe and reliable things has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with odds. It's best to find out things that work in every situation, so that while it might be safe, it is also guaranteed. That is why I mentioned the down throw situation, as a way to look at a specific instance from a perspective of finding guaranteed advantages and abusing them. This isn't being fearful, this is about patience.

Also, I'm not advocating not attacking. I'm advocating that one should avoid recklessness with your attacks. If you are in neutral, do not use laggy attacks. There is a much higher chance that you will whiff than you will succeed. Also if you have your opponent in a situation where you have the advantage, use it, but don't give it up. For example, if you throw someone off the stage slightly, don't jump so far out that they have a chance to go around you. It's better to zone yourself so that, in the worst case, they make it back to the ledge, but you still maintain stage control. While that might mean you lose out on a KO here and there, it also means that you are far less likely to have the tables turned on you. Keep in mind, maintaining an advantaged position allows you to have more opportunities to land the KO anyways.

Something I didn't discuss in the previous post is how to deal with situations in which M2 is in a disadvantaged position. Thankfully, M2's crazy recovery options allow him to be very slippery in general, and with the exception of low %, I very much doubt he will be subject to many guaranteed combos. What you want to do when you do not have stage control is focus on resetting the situation back to neutral. Sometimes it's even best to do this even if you know you will take some % damage, as long as you have a very high chance of resetting, it's not a bad idea.
 

Nobie

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Using safe and reliable things has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with odds. It's best to find out things that work in every situation, so that while it might be safe, it is also guaranteed. That is why I mentioned the down throw situation, as a way to look at a specific instance from a perspective of finding guaranteed advantages and abusing them. This isn't being fearful, this is about patience.

Also, I'm not advocating not attacking. I'm advocating that one should avoid recklessness with your attacks. If you are in neutral, do not use laggy attacks. There is a much higher chance that you will whiff than you will succeed. Also if you have your opponent in a situation where you have the advantage, use it, but don't give it up. For example, if you throw someone off the stage slightly, don't jump so far out that they have a chance to go around you. It's better to zone yourself so that, in the worst case, they make it back to the ledge, but you still maintain stage control. While that might mean you lose out on a KO here and there, it also means that you are far less likely to have the tables turned on you. Keep in mind, maintaining an advantaged position allows you to have more opportunities to land the KO anyways.

Something I didn't discuss in the previous post is how to deal with situations in which M2 is in a disadvantaged position. Thankfully, M2's crazy recovery options allow him to be very slippery in general, and with the exception of low %, I very much doubt he will be subject to many guaranteed combos. What you want to do when you do not have stage control is focus on resetting the situation back to neutral. Sometimes it's even best to do this even if you know you will take some % damage, as long as you have a very high chance of resetting, it's not a bad idea.
I know you're not advocating not attacking, and I fully agree with everything you say in your post. I just think it's easy for people to read what you say and mistakenly interpret "playing safe" as "being overly defensive."

As for actual combos or things that just do a ton of damage, Mewtwo's at risk against certain things because it for some reason is more vulnerable during ledge getup compared to all other characters (perhaps a programming oversight?), and Fox's one-two punch repetition is really hard for Mewtwo to DI out of.
 

MookieRah

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I know you're not advocating not attacking, and I fully agree with everything you say in your post. I just think it's easy for people to read what you say and mistakenly interpret "playing safe" as "being overly defensive."
I see what you are saying. In actuality playing in the manner that I'm talking about is anything but overly defensive. Using safe pokes and good movement to approach definitely feels very offensive to your opponent, despite it actually not being very committing on your end. Hopefully people take away that "reactive" != "passive".
 

MagiusNecros

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Looks like passive aggressive. Kinda like what Bowser, Ganon and other bait and punish characters do already. Except they live longer.
 

MookieRah

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My next piece of advice is this, everyone should be grinding out their tech. There isn't much of it in Sm4sh, so you guys shouldn't have many excuses about not learning it.So far, it seems as most of the tech is revolving around M2's specials, mainly shadowball and teleport.

I don't know how teleport works in Sm4sh, but it seems that a lot of the cool tricks that melee M2's are just now getting accustomed to are actually easier to perform. Such as edge canceling a teleport. This is the act of teleporting so that you land on the edge of a surface (so far I've only seen this done on the ledge in Sm4sh) so that you only suffer from landing lag (if lag at all). It's a bit tricky, and you'd have to learn the distances at which it applies, but there is no excuse not to learn it even if it doesn't actually help that much. I'd advise Sm4sh players to check if normal edge canceling applies, in which you can teleport so that you can perform this on any platform with the proper spacing.

This isn't a good example, as this is TAS and includes other teleport canceling tricks that are nearly impossible for humans to do, but there are a few edge canceled teleports in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnCrhJsNrlg

In general, teleport is an amazing special in melee for getting out of trouble and resetting things to neutral. It doesn't seem to be too different in Sm4sh, and should be a huge asset for this character. It will help M2 players "choose" when to engage and when to reset more so than other characters.

Regarding shadowball, it seems as if there are a lot of potential tricks involved with turning yourself around very quickly, it seems as if it's substantially faster than melee. This is a very useful technique to master, even if it's situational. It's less useful in Sm4sh but I'm sure it has it's place and it wouldn't take a lot of time to get down.

Anything that you find that you can't do you should learn and master. Even if it ends up being borderline useless. Increasing your tech skill is never a bad thing, and every trick you know makes every new trick easier and increases your execution as well. Most people don't actually practice tech enough, this is hugely prevalent in melee even though people seem to act as if they practice it several hours a day.
 

Nobie

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One major difference in Teleport between the games is that, while in Melee you had less recovery time if you finished your teleport in the air, in Smash 4 your recovery time from the air is actually greater. What this basically means is that there are less opportunities to teleport (if your only choice is to teleport into the air, and there isn't enough distance between you and them, then it's pretty much a guaranteed punish), but if you're close enough to the ground that your teleport will reach it, then it becomes a fairly safe option.

Oh, and edge canceling totally works.
 
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MookieRah

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Damn Sakurai! Is nothing sacred! Well in any case, teleport should still be useful, at least when platforms are involved. You can still teleport through standard platforms like you can in melee, and that is quite useful for escaping bad situations.

Does edge-canceling still work for normal platforms? I know that you and edge-cancel the ledge, but if you could edge-cancel normal platforms it would definitely be important to learn (even if it is as difficult as it is in melee).
 
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MagiusNecros

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Just remember mewtwo can be hit out of teleport in his purple warp graphic effect thing.
 

MookieRah

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You are vulnerable for 9 frames in Sm4sh and 8 in melee, so virtually the same. Considering that Sm4sh is a slightly slower paced game, that extra frame really isn't as big of a deal. Basically, in Melee, you use teleport when there is some space between you and your opponent, as it's too slow to be a good OoS option. It doesn't stop it from being pretty damn good though. I would imagine (with the exception of jump canceled teleports) that Sm4sh teleports should still be incredibly useful.
 
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