some fox questions

[reverie2]

When you try to dair shine someones shield if theyre attempting to shield grab, are you supposed to try and hit the lowest part of their shield? Im on 20xx against a sheik with infinite shield and having her shield grab, and if i try and hit the low part of her shield (like with falcos shield pressure) , she can still grab me sometimes. Also, sometimes if I just dair and hit all of my hits on the shield and shine afterwards, the shine can prevent the sheik from grabbing. I'm not sure what's the best way to dair shine a shield.

Also I have some more shield pressure questions:
1. can shine grab on a person shielding get safely buffer shield rolled?
2. can double shien grab on a person shielding get safely buffer shield rolled?
3. can 3+ shine into grab on a person shielding get safely buffer shield rolled?
4. what are practical uses of 2+shines that can't be done with single shine (other than shine until their shield breaks)
5. if you double shine someone not shielding, they only get hit by 1 shine, right? The 1st shine knocks them away from the 2nd?

 

[BRUJO~]

5. if you double shine someone not shielding, they only get hit by 1 shine, right? The 1st shine knocks them away from the 2nd?

If you do the second shine fast enough, it will hit them before they are sent away by the first. This can be useful towards the edge because it will send them at a more sharply downwards angle than just a single shine

 

[Stride]

All shine grabs can be rolled or spotdodged out of. Double-shines will catch buffered rolls between the shines (but not buffered spotdodges). Multishines will not catch buffered rolls.

Frame data for single-shine grab: http://smashboards.com/threads/good-uses-for-nair.405792/#post-19537867
Frame data for double-shine grab: http://smashboards.com/threads/shine-grab-vs-doubleshine-grab.408825/#post-19566928

 

[reverie2]

All shine grabs can be rolled or spotdodged out of. Multishines will catch buffered rolls between the shines (but not buffered spotdodges, at least not immediately; maybe a subsequent shine will hit).

Frame data for single-shine grab: http://smashboards.com/threads/good-uses-for-nair.405792/#post-19537867
Frame data for double-shine grab: http://smashboards.com/threads/shine-grab-vs-doubleshine-grab.408825/#post-19566928

Thanks all for the responses. Anyone know about the best way to dair shine someones shield (to avoid shieldgrab if possible)?

 

[Snorlaxes]

Thanks all for the responses. Anyone know about the best way to dair shine someones shield (to avoid shieldgrab if possible)?

Fox's dair has very little shield stun and is tough to intentionally land low on shield. As a rule of thumb, I'd try and avoid using it on shield unless you'll be crossing them up (landing behind them).

 

[tauKhan]

Multishines will catch buffered rolls between the shines.

Only double shine catches (non jigglypuff forward) rolls. Jumps out of shine after the 2nd shine must be delayed by at least 2 frames to avoid dj, which leaves enough time for rolls to escape.

 

[Stride]

Only double shine catches (non jigglypuff forward) rolls. Jumps out of shine after the 2nd shine must be delayed by at least 2 frames to avoid dj, which leaves enough time for rolls to escape.

Ah, I forgot about that.

 

[reverie2]

so is multishine just completely useless then? i dont really see any use of it if you can just easily buffer a roll out

 

[Stride]

so is multishine just completely useless then? i dont really see any use of it if you can just easily buffer a roll out

You can buffer a roll out of almost all shield pressure in the game without being immediately hit. Rolls are not always safe; they can be baited and punished, whether it's directly (by catching the endlag of the roll with an attack; a grab, for example), or indirectly (by taking control of the space that they've given up by rolling out of it).

The multishine catches any non-intangible actions out of shield (jumping, wavedashing, shieldgrabbing, etc.). Like all shield pressure, multishines need to be mixed up with other options to force the opponent to respect them. The basic premise is that if you mix up between one option and a second option which punishes the counterplay to the first option, then the threat of you potentially using the second option allows you to use the first option more safely (since the opponent will be forced to let you "get away with it" sometimes because of the potential of being punished for trying to stop you, if you chose to use an alternative option). A simple example is that if you do a double-shine on the opponent's shield then they will be able to wait for the 2nd shine and wavedash out of the pressure, but if you do a triple-shine and they try to wavedash out after the 2nd shine then the 3rd shine will hit them out of it.

 

[reverie2]

You can buffer a roll out of almost all shield pressure in the game without being immediately hit. Rolls are not always safe; they can be baited and punished, whether it's directly (by catching the endlag of the roll with an attack; a grab, for example), or indirectly (by taking control of the space that they've given up by rolling out of it).

The multishine catches any non-intangible actions out of shield (jumping, wavedashing, shieldgrabbing, etc.). Like all shield pressure, multishines need to be mixed up with other options to force the opponent to respect them. The basic premise of is that if you mix up between one option and a second option which punishes the counterplay to the first option, then the threat of you potentially using the second option allows you to use the first option more safely (since the opponent will be forced to let you "get away with it" sometimes because of the potential of being punished for trying to stop you, if you chose to use an alternative option). A simple example is that if you do a double-shine on the opponent's shield then they will be able to wait for the 2nd shine and wavedash out of the pressure, but if you do a triple-shine then the 3rd shine and they try to wavedash out after the 2nd shine then the 3cd shine will hit them out of it.

i see, thanks so much for the response.

So based on what you said, 2x shine -> nair can be wavedashed out of between 2nd shine and nair (we want to mix in a 3rd shine if we know he's going to wavedash out). What allows the victim to be able to wavedash out of this position, but they can't wavedash out between 1x shine->nair?

This might also be the same question, but what is it that makes the 3rd shine come out so much slower than the 2nd shine ?

 

[Stride]

i see, thanks so much for the response.

So based on what you said, 2x shine -> nair can be wavedashed out of between 2nd shine and nair (we want to mix in a 3rd shine if we know he's going to wavedash out). What allows the victim to be able to wavedash out of this position, but they can't wavedash out between 1x shine->nair?

An immediate nair will hit the opponent out of their wavedash. Immediate nairs are vulnerable to being shieldgrabbed unless you fade away or cross up with them, so you will often be doing later nairs, for which it would be possible to wavedash out between the shine and the nair.

This might also be the same question, but what is it that makes the 3rd shine come out so much slower than the 2nd shine ?

See:

Only double shine catches (non jigglypuff forward) rolls. Jumps out of shine after the 2nd shine must be delayed by at least 2 frames to avoid dj, which leaves enough time for rolls to escape.

You're in the air after jumping out of a shine, so you have to wait to float back to the ground before you can jump for the next shine (assuming you don't want to double jump). The 2nd shine can be done sooner after the previous shine because the 1st shine is grounded and therefore allows you to do a grounded jump sooner.