Solving the mysterious stronger dsmash hitbox

[Browny]

I've noticed this since Mewtwo was first released, but there is a certain hitbox of dsmash that is quite a bit more powerful than normal. Maybe people here have seen it.

I have found it happens often if the enemy tries to attack after confusion. Recreating it is kind of hard but I have many replays of this happening, most were lost in various updates until I got a capture card. This one I got recently though.

https://gfycat.com/SlimDimElectriceel

This gif first shows the stronger hitbox, killing Lucina at 86% with no rage from almost centre stage. The second clip is recreating it and you'll see its noticeably weaker. Both situations are a fresh dsmash straight after dying.

I have had this happen way too many times for it to just be a fluke and no, this is not a case of the enemy charging a smash attack during the hit to make it stronger. I also know that this was not a result of the recent patch which buffed his dsmash, this has been happening since he came out. I suspect this hitbox seems to hit airborne opponents only. I want to figure this out once and for all.

So... any ideas? Or able to recreate it more regularly anyone?

 

[SafCar]

Maybe 0.x% damage caused it to go up to 102% instead and the opponent had bad DI?

 

[Browny]

The stronger hit took her to 101%, the weaker one took her to 102% so that's not the case.

 

[FlynnCL]

I checked out Dantarion's MasterCore which contains hitbox data for fighters. Mewtwo's down-smash does contain 2 hitboxes, with one of them being significantly larger than the other (8.7u compared to 4.0u)

However, these hitboxes have no change in damage, knockback, trajectory or even co-ordinates - they're almost identical! If the bone value is correct the bigger hitbox appears to completely overlap the smaller one, so that's strange.

The only difference is that the larger hitbox might be considered Indirect (specified right at the end), which has no influence over matches and instead is used for single player modes such as Smash Run for stat modifications. I believe it's similar to Brawl where Indirect attacks were made weaker in Subspace to encourage closer combat.

I tested this out too as I have two controllers and I'm sure I was able to recreate it. Vectoring is still very present as the trajectory is not purely vertical, so holding towards the corner blastzones will KO you around 4-6% earlier. The first clip shows a more vertical trajectory which implies the Lucina was holding up and away (and considering she performed an up-aerial this is very likely).

 

[Browny]

I guess so... I never knew there was such a dramatic difference by DI'ing up.

Still though, that move is insanely powerful. It catches me off guard how early it kills sometimes.

 

[meleebrawler]

It could also be that you caught her charging a smash. That seems to be the leading cause for mysteriously early deaths.

 

[Constadin]

If an attack seems to do 1% more dmg in some cases while it definately is the same hitbox hitting, then remember that decimical numbers do not show on the screen. In one case Lucina might have 86.4 dmg and reached 101.?? with an attack 15.00 (Not fresh dsmash) and in the other case 86.4 and got hit for a 15.1 fresh dsmash; thus showing 102. (Keep in mind my numbers are for example purposes and not actually true, just to give you an overview).

Actually I was wondering about something similar in the past with ROB's dtilt that jablocks a certain character up to 76%. Some times at 76% threshold I was able to jablock and some other times I couldn't with me eventually realizing that the actual threshold was not 76% but a number between this and 76,4%

Hope this helped!

 

[GanonPawnch]

If you DI toward the stage when being hit with Mewtwo's down smash, you'll actually die earlier, which looks like is what happened here judging by their launch angle. In order to DI down smash, you have to DI it like Charizard's up throw, which is down and away from Mewtwo. Obviously don't hold away for too long, as you might then fall into the left or right blastzones. This DI is what can make you live up to 158% against Charizard's up throw (tested with Mario in training).

 

[meleebrawler]

If you DI toward the stage when being hit with Mewtwo's down smash, you'll actually die earlier, which looks like is what happened here judging by their launch angle. In order to DI down smash, you have to DI it like Charizard's up throw, which is down and away from Mewtwo. Obviously don't hold away for too long, as you might then fall into the left or right blastzones. This DI is what can make you live up to 158% against Charizard's up throw (tested with Mario in training).

And yet people will still assert Charizard has the better kill throw because of rage and auto-platform use...

 

[GanonPawnch]

And yet people will still assert Charizard has the better kill throw because of rage and auto-platform use...

Yup. Charizard's can be stronger... when in the right positions, but Mewtwo's is way more reliable. Charizard's killed mario at 130% and mewtwo's killed at around 132% on mario. Stronger right? However with DI, you can only save a few % with mewtwo, and I could only get it to live until 135% lol (DI'ing away from Mewtwo).

 

[Darklink401]

If an attack seems to do 1% more dmg in some cases while it definately is the same hitbox hitting, then remember that decimical numbers do not show on the screen. In one case Lucina might have 86.4 dmg and reached 101.?? with an attack 15.00 (Not fresh dsmash) and in the other case 86.4 and got hit for a 15.1 fresh dsmash; thus showing 102. (Keep in mind my numbers are for example purposes and not actually true, just to give you an overview).

Actually I was wondering about something similar in the past with ROB's dtilt that jablocks a certain character up to 76%. Some times at 76% threshold I was able to jablock and some other times I couldn't with me eventually realizing that the actual threshold was not 76% but a number between this and 76,4%

Hope this helped!

It's not the % difference, it's the fact the first one killed earlier.

That being said, I do find it interesting that there's basically an unusable hitbox in Mewtwo's dsmash that overlaps the bigger one

Might be useful in certain situations?

 

[Chiroz]

It's DI. You can see the launch trajectories. DIng towards the stage can make you die 10% earlier, DIng away could make you last around 10% later. That's a huge difference (20%) from bad DI to good DI.

And all this depends on weight, %, aerial acceleration and such too.

Yup. Charizard's can be stronger... when in the right positions, but Mewtwo's is way more reliable. Charizard's killed mario at 130% and mewtwo's killed at around 132% on mario. Stronger right? However with DI, you can only save a few % with mewtwo, and I could only get it to live until 135% lol (DI'ing away from Mewtwo).

Charizard's is only barely, barely weaker with perfect DI on both if I recall correctly (I tested it back when he was buffed and there was about a 3-5% difference).

But with no DI it is far stronger than Mewtwo's and let's not forget that Charizard's U-Throw has a possibility of being DIed wrong and killing even earlier which Mewtwo's does not (although the trow is pretty slow, whomever DIs it wrong has no idea what he is doing).

Also Charizard's U-Throw can land on platforms basically making it even stronger.

 

[Browny]

Charizard's is only barely, barely weaker with perfect DI on both if I recall correctly (I tested it back when he was buffed and there was about a 3-5% difference).

But with no DI it is far stronger than Mewtwo's and let's not forget that Charizard's U-Throw has a possibility of being DIed wrong and killing even earlier which Mewtwo's does not (although the trow is pretty slow, whomever DIs it wrong has no idea what he is doing).

Also Charizard's U-Throw can land on platforms basically making it even stronger.

http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

The actual number is 24% from centre stage, getting progressively less as you near the edge but at no time does charizards ever KO earlier on a flat, tournament stage.

Further to that, Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier on the ground than charizards does landing on a platform. The only time charizard will be KO'ing earlier is by landing on the top platform on BF/Dreamland/T&C or on the smashville platform when it is closest to the blastzone.

 

[Chiroz]

http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

The actual number is 24% from centre stage, getting progressively less as you near the edge but at no time does charizards ever KO earlier on a flat, tournament stage.

Further to that, Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier on the ground than charizards does landing on a platform. The only time charizard will be KO'ing earlier is by landing on the top platform on BF/Dreamland/T&C or on the smashville platform when it is closest to the blastzone.

I just learned something very useful about DI thanks to this post. I went to test this and I noticed I was only surviving until 144% with Mario (Charizard U-Throw), I can now survive to 157% reliably. 158% sometimes.

It is good to note though that DI is stronger the heavier the char is, the higher the gravity and the more aerial acceleration it has, so Mario is probably the one with the most % difference out of the top tiers. But your point still stands, there is a huge difference that I thought did not exist because I was not doing optimal DI.