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Solo viable main

Is Mario a viable solo main character?


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Kulty

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Hi guys,

Is:4mario:considered to be a great viable character when it comes to only using him in tournaments without any secondary? In other words, is he a viable solo main? If yes, explain why. If no, which characters can help him backup? Me, I hesitated between :4metaknight:and:4villager:, but I chose Villager since I want at least projectiles to defend myself. You can suggest me other characters, since I want to hear what you guys think about the best character that can help cover Mario's weaknesses.
 

RespectingOpinions

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Mario has no awful or tough match ups. Unless you're at the highest level of play, if you're losing to a character it's likely the fault of your own skill than it is the character.
 

Xeze

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Imo, Mario is viable as a solo main character. His toughest MU might be Luigi but it's far from unwinnable. It's not like Ness that insta-loses if he goes offstage vs Rosalina.
 

Kulty

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Imo, Mario is viable as a solo main character. His toughest MU might be Luigi but it's far from unwinnable. It's not like Ness that insta-loses if he goes offstage vs Rosalina.
I see. I plan to only main:4mario:along with :4villager::4feroy:as competitive secondaries, so I want to hear what you guys have to say about good characters that can help the red plumber. Btw, did you choose:4samus:because you like her playstyle or does she have the potential to help Mario? I'm interested in Samus, but I don't know much about her.
 
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Xeze

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I choose my characters most of the time based on playstyle and/or my personal past in videogames with that character. Samus fits both, because I really enjoyed the Metroid Prime games and, in terms of playstyle, she has a good combo game, which I really love in a character, coupled with some strong zoning and kill tools. But as a matter of fact, Samus does help me out in certain tough MUs for Mario, for example Luigi or DK.
 

miniada

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Mario is a very viable charecter IMO. his MU spread and or chart isn't to bad either the only awful MUS he has IMO are :4marth::4luigi::4feroy: but other than that he loses to a few others but they art really obnoxiously hard, for mario to deal with. That's just my opinion EDIT: Xeze Xeze I used periods :-).
 
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Kulty

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I choose my characters most of the time based on playstyle and/or my personal past in videogames with that character. Samus fits both, because I really enjoyed the Metroid Prime games and, in terms of playstyle, she has a good combo game, which I really love in a character, coupled with some strong zoning and kill tools. But as a matter of fact, Samus does help me out in certain tough MUs for Mario, for example Luigi or DK.
Do you think Samus is a great character that can help Mario or not? If no, who would be the first character that you would pick to help Mario's bad matchups?
 

Kulty

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Mario is a very viable charecter IMO. his MU spread and or chart isn't to bad either the only awful MUS he has IMO are :4marth::4luigi::4feroy: but other than that he loses to a few others but they art really obnoxiously hard, for mario to deal with. That's just my opinion EDIT: Xeze Xeze I used periods :-).
Mario's MU against Marth isn't as bad as how it was in previous games, because of Marth's huge nerfs in terms of his range and approach options, which makes it a bit easier for Mario to deal with. I agree with Luigi being Mario's worst MU, but not sure for Roy. I would tend to say it's not as bad, because his range is much shorter than Marth and that Roy is vulnerable to Mario's combos because of his falling speed (especially the up-tilt strings).
 

RespectingOpinions

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Luigi Mario is probably around 55:45 in Luigi's favor, no more. The only matchups I'd currently say Mario slightly struggles in is against Rosalina and Luigi. Marth is even, and Roy loses to Mario pretty easily imo.

What I'm trying to say is you don't need another character to cover Marios bad matchups in tournament since he has so few. Marios is definetely a viable solo main, and even if he wasn't, picking like Samus or Villager isn't really going to be helpful for like the 3 matchups you'd use them in.
 

miniada

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My explanations for marth and such .
:4marth:65:35:4mario: mario has so much disadvantages in this mu. Marth has a better netural since he can approach but mario can't due to Marth's range. If mario tries to approach with fireballs from a distance marth can poke it with jab. If he try to approach above marth can roll and get some hits on mario. If mario tries to Dair if you get the timing down marth will either clank or beat out mario. The only way mario can approach is if he gets an unlikely bait. Marth has a lot more damage output and outranges all his moves. Mario already is bad at killing and the fact marth has a huge advantage in the killing department that is really bad for mario. The only advantage mario has is edgeguarding if he didn't have that it would be :4marth:70:30:4mario: again just like brawl.
:4luigi:60:40:4mario: I used to think it was evenish but this isn't the diddy era it's patch 1.10. Mario has better mobility but that is all. Luigi has better combos, kill power, damage output, combo breakers' and punish game. Since marios better at edgeguarding it's not :4luigi:65:35:4mario:
:4feroy:60:40:4mario: roy has less range than Marth. But still has a lot. So mario can't approach but roy can so roy has the better netural. His damage output is stupid do mario won't like that. And roy has even more kill power than Marth which sucks for mario. Mario can combo him easily that's it.
 

Kulty

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Luigi Mario is probably around 55:45 in Luigi's favor, no more. The only matchups I'd currently say Mario slightly struggles in is against Rosalina and Luigi. Marth is even, and Roy loses to Mario pretty easily imo.

What I'm trying to say is you don't need another character to cover Marios bad matchups in tournament since he has so few. Marios is definetely a viable solo main, and even if he wasn't, picking like Samus or Villager isn't really going to be helpful for like the 3 matchups you'd use them in.
Then which characters would you say can help Mario's bad matchups? Not just the three you mentionned but the overall roster? I want to know, because I plan to create a thread that can help Mario mains to find a good secondary character to help Mario's bad matchups or to cover Mario's weaknesses if they need it.
 

Kulty

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My explanations for marth and such .
:4marth:65:35:4mario: mario has so much disadvantages in this mu. Marth has a better netural since he can approach but mario can't due to Marth's range. If mario tries to approach with fireballs from a distance marth can poke it with jab. If he try to approach above marth can roll and get some hits on mario. If mario tries to Dair if you get the timing down marth will either clank or beat out mario. The only way mario can approach is if he gets an unlikely bait. Marth has a lot more damage output and outranges all his moves. Mario already is bad at killing and the fact marth has a huge advantage in the killing department that is really bad for mario. The only advantage mario has is edgeguarding if he didn't have that it would be :4marth:70:30:4mario: again just like brawl.
:4luigi:60:40:4mario: I used to think it was evenish but this isn't the diddy era it's patch 1.10. Mario has better mobility but that is all. Luigi has better combos, kill power, damage output, combo breakers' and punish game. Since marios better at edgeguarding it's not :4luigi:65:35:4mario:
:4feroy:60:40:4mario: roy has less range than Marth. But still has a lot. So mario can't approach but roy can so roy has the better netural. His damage output is stupid do mario won't like that. And roy has even more kill power than Marth which sucks for mario. Mario can combo him easily that's it.
I still think that the Marth MU is not as bad. But that's just me. Mario may lose, but it's not as terrible as how it was in Melee and Brawl to where Marth destroys him. As for Roy and Luigi, I agree that they are kinda bad matchups for Mario, but not unwinnable.
 

FUEGO!

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I prefer to use him as a secondary to Luigi, because his Match Up spread is perfectly complimented by Mario's when teamed up, going either Even or more with Luigi's worst match ups.
 

RespectingOpinions

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My explanations for marth and such .
:4marth:65:35:4mario: mario has so much disadvantages in this mu. Marth has a better netural since he can approach but mario can't due to Marth's range. If mario tries to approach with fireballs from a distance marth can poke it with jab. If he try to approach above marth can roll and get some hits on mario. If mario tries to Dair if you get the timing down marth will either clank or beat out mario. The only way mario can approach is if he gets an unlikely bait. Marth has a lot more damage output and outranges all his moves. Mario already is bad at killing and the fact marth has a huge advantage in the killing department that is really bad for mario. The only advantage mario has is edgeguarding if he didn't have that it would be :4marth:70:30:4mario: again just like brawl.
:4luigi:60:40:4mario: I used to think it was evenish but this isn't the diddy era it's patch 1.10. Mario has better mobility but that is all. Luigi has better combos, kill power, damage output, combo breakers' and punish game. Since marios better at edgeguarding it's not :4luigi:65:35:4mario:
:4feroy:60:40:4mario: roy has less range than Marth. But still has a lot. So mario can't approach but roy can so roy has the better netural. His damage output is stupid do mario won't like that. And roy has even more kill power than Marth which sucks for mario. Mario can combo him easily that's it.
Mario does not have killing problems lmao. And just because a character has more range than Mario does not make them better in any way. Marth is laggy, many of his approaches can be punished by Mario easily by shielding. Marios damage output is also a lot better than Marth's so he gets so much more reward for getting in. I've talked to Zenyou and Nicko about this matchup and they also agree it's close to 50 for both characters.
 

RespectingOpinions

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Then which characters would you say can help Mario's bad matchups? Not just the three you mentionned but the overall roster? I want to know, because I plan to create a thread that can help Mario mains to find a good secondary character to help Mario's bad matchups or to cover Mario's weaknesses if they need it.
Mario does not need a secondary or pocket character is what I've been trying to tell you. He's perfectly viable as a solo main.
 

miniada

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Mario does not have killing problems lmao. And just because a character has more range than Mario does not make them better in any way. Marth is laggy, many of his approaches can be punished by Mario easily by shielding. Marios damage output is also a lot better than Marth's so he gets so much more reward for getting in. I've talked to Zenyou and Nicko about this matchup and they also agree it's close to 50 for both characters.
I still think Marth wins. but slightly might be :4marth:50:50/55:45:4mario:
 

Xeze

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Use FLUDD to mess up with Marth's spacing.
 

miniada

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Here are all the MUs mario struggles with imo. And who I think counters them.
:4dk::4link::4pit::4darkpit::rosalina::4sheik::4metaknight::4gaw::4ness:.
:4falcon::4fox::4pikachu:(both):4metaknight::4lucario::4sonic::4bowser::rosalina:
 

Kulty

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Here are all the MUs mario struggles with imo. And who I think counters them.
:4dk::4link::4pit::4darkpit::rosalina::4sheik::4metaknight::4gaw::4ness:.
:4falcon::4fox::4pikachu:(both):4metaknight::4lucario::4sonic::4bowser::rosalina:
I pretty much agree with the first line of fighters being part of MUs where Mario struggles (not sure about G&W, but I can see it being hard for Mario, but definitely duable due to G&W nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4). And for counters, yep. Definitely a great list man. As for :4lucario::4bowser:, not sure about them. Why did you put these two on Mario's counters list? By coincidence, :4sonic:is (by far, maybe might change him later after release of all DLC characters) my second main. He really does help me cover :4mario:bad MUs.
 

Kulty

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Link? The Pits? Captain Falcon? These are supposed to be Marios bad mashups? Lmao, I'm so done.
I think what he meant is that the first line of characters represent Mario`s bad MUs, while the second line represents characters that can counter Mario's bad MUs. This means that Link and the Pits are part of Mario's bad MUs which I agree with, and Falcon being part of those who can help Mario? I think he`s a solid pick, but based on this list, I can't see Falcon beat :4link::4sheik::4metaknight::4ness:..
 

xleo_samusx

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I secondary Shulk, I feel like their strengths and weaknesses complement one another well. Mostly in terms of range and balance.
 

miniada

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Link? The Pits? Captain Falcon? These are supposed to be Marios bad mashups? Lmao, I'm so done.
What Kulty Kulty said is correct but allow me to explain
:4link:55:45:4mario: link outranges mario which ruins his already mediocre approach. He can edgeguard us better than we do to him since his dair beats out or up b and ge has d tilt spike and has tether to mix up his recovery. Mario doesn't benefit from caping projectiles and just because he has a caoe doesn't mean everytime link uses a projectile it will get caped. Link has more damage output and kill power than mario and benefits from rage mire. Mario does have a good combo game on link due to his heavy weight. He can edgeguard him well (granted not as good as he does). And has better mobility and frame data.
:4pit:/:4darkpit:55:45:4mario: pit and dark pit both out range mario. They have better ko power than nario. They are floaty which gives them the ability to escape our combos and they have netural to break out as well. We can't escape their juggles because of their disjointed hitboxes. When it comes to edgeguarding that's when it really gets annoying. They have fair and bair to get us of stage and one snipe from an arrow then we are are not to mention. They also have down b to edgeguard nario. Also coward and back throw are also good kill moves against mario.
Falcon I don't think is bad it's probably Mario's favor due to how much he benefits from combo strings.
 

Kulty

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What Kulty Kulty said is correct but allow me to explain
:4link:55:45:4mario: link outranges mario which ruins his already mediocre approach. He can edgeguard us better than we do to him since his dair beats out or up b and ge has d tilt spike and has tether to mix up his recovery. Mario doesn't benefit from caping projectiles and just because he has a caoe doesn't mean everytime link uses a projectile it will get caped. Link has more damage output and kill power than mario and benefits from rage mire. Mario does have a good combo game on link due to his heavy weight. He can edgeguard him well (granted not as good as he does). And has better mobility and frame data.
:4pit:/:4darkpit:55:45:4mario: pit and dark pit both out range mario. They have better ko power than nario. They are floaty which gives them the ability to escape our combos and they have netural to break out as well. We can't escape their juggles because of their disjointed hitboxes. When it comes to edgeguarding that's when it really gets annoying. They have fair and bair to get us of stage and one snipe from an arrow then we are are not to mention. They also have down b to edgeguard nario. Also coward and back throw are also good kill moves against mario.
Falcon I don't think is bad it's probably Mario's favor due to how much he benefits from combo strings.
Miniada, I would like to know why you picked:4bowser:and:4lucario:as characters that can help counter Mario`s bad MUs? In my mind, all these characters that you mentioned in the second line came into my mind first as characters who can help Mario.
 

miniada

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Miniada, I would like to know why you picked:4bowser:and:4lucario:as characters that can help counter Mario`s bad MUs? In my mind, all these characters that you mentioned in the second line came into my mind first as characters who can help Mario.
Bowser is a good counter again mr gaw due to his heavy weight damage output and range all being superior than gaw.
lucario beats sheik since she can combo lucario but can kill him giving him tons of aura combined with the fact sheik is light weight.
 

Kulty

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Bowser is a good counter again mr gaw due to his heavy weight damage output and range all being superior than gaw.
lucario beats sheik since she can combo lucario but can kill him giving him tons of aura combined with the fact sheik is light weight.
Interesting. I really think Lucario is the best character to take on against Sheik because of this. Maybe a lot of players think Lucario can't still beat Sheik due to Sheik's neutral dominance. Thanks a lot man! Also, do you think that Bowser does well against the first line of characters? I can't see him beat the others.
 

I AKU I

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I think Mario is a very viable character, and he does have some results to back it up. Him and Pikachu give my Sheik the most problems.

I didn't know Weegee was such a tough MU for Mario, but it is one of Sheik's best IMO. Needles and fairs spaced on shield ruin his day big time. You have to play really patiently, but you can literally win the match just by camping and walling them out. I'd recommend her as a secondary if Luigi is giving you that much problems. I also think she does fairly well against all of the other bad MU's mentioned save MK.
 
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miniada

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Interesting. I really think Lucario is the best character to take on against Sheik because of this. Maybe a lot of players think Lucario can't still beat Sheik due to Sheik's neutral dominance. Thanks a lot man! Also, do you think that Bowser does well against the first line of characters? I can't see him beat the others.
Here beats gaw goes even with link loses to everyone else on the first line.
 

A2ZOMG

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Link? The Pits? Captain Falcon? These are supposed to be Marios bad mashups? Lmao, I'm so done.
Link can anti-air and edgeguard Mario really, really easily, and his grab game is nearly as good as Mario's. The sheer reward Link gets from grab and how much pressure it puts in midrange forces Mario to play very differently in this matchup, and this works a lot to Link's advantage when this either conditions Mario into panic dodging or trying to jump out of the way.

The Pits are fast, have more consistent grab games (too floaty for Mario to combo well), and can outspace Mario really well. Fishing for Smashes against them in neutral is also not wise given they have good out of shield punishes.

A good Falcon will simply recover low against most of Mario's edgeguards, making him hard to outright gimp. He's heavy, and better at fishing for kills than Mario (Falcon B-air >> Mario U-smash). Furthermore Mario cannot freely drift out of Falcon's juggles, making him vulnerable to being frame trapped as he does not have easy ways of landing vs Falcon due to his floatiness. Comboing Falcon from 10->80% doesn't mean a lot when Mario frankly doesn't have an easy time killing Falcon.
 
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RespectingOpinions

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Most Falcon players will tell you the matchup is bad for Falcon, and for good reason. Falcon is combo bait for Mario, and idk what you're talking about Mario has plenty of options to cover a low recovery.

Mario does have a quite easy time killing Falcon honestly. Gimps aren't hard to come across with Falcon, and Mario has quite a few setups to kill Falcon once he's past like 100. Typical dthrow uair upb stuff can always come through, dthrow fair works well on Falcon, watch Zenyou vs Fatality to get a better understanding of some of the stuff you can do kill Falcon.

Adding together Marios ability to juggle and combo Falcon with ease with Falcons poor recovery along with other small things Mario has over Falcon makes the matchup certainly in Marios favor, at least at high level.
 
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Xxaz_v

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Yeah, you only need one hand to play Mario if you're using a gamepad. You can use the other hand to fap to ZSS' up air to up b combos because those take so much skill.
 

Rand0

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Most Falcon players will tell you the matchup is bad for Falcon, and for good reason. Falcon is combo bait for Mario, and idk what you're talking about Mario has plenty of options to cover a low recovery.

Mario does have a quite easy time killing Falcon honestly. Gimps aren't hard to come across with Falcon, and Mario has quite a few setups to kill Falcon once he's past like 100. Typical dthrow uair upb stuff can always come through, dthrow fair works well on Falcon, watch Zenyou vs Fatality to get a better understanding of some of the stuff you can do kill Falcon.

Adding together Marios ability to juggle and combo Falcon with ease with Falcons poor recovery along with other small things Mario has over Falcon makes the matchup certainly in Marios favor, at least at high level.
Ok, that is a very famous misconception that everyone has about this matchup, falcon is not combo bait, if the player is even half decent and doesnt air dodge all the time, then the very maximum mario can do, is 60% in one combo, like against every other character, ill give that he doesnt have a frame 3 nair like luigi or yoshi, but he still cant get over 60% combo'd. if you dont believe me watch fatality vs zenyou, and fing a combo that adds over 60% on him. so thats that

Also RespectingOpinions RespectingOpinions you quoted a video, that literally contradicts everything your saying, in that video, its first of all very close, it goes down to game five, adding to the opinion of an even matchup, and in every game its incredibly close. It also shows falcon combo potential, he combos zenyou so many times in this video, granted not as much as mario to him, but still multiple 25-40% combos. also in the first match, he only spikes fatality bc of the bad air dodges. (just pointin it out) without it, fatality may have won. theres also a kill with a cape, but u cant do that unless he covers high, so again his fault, all im saying, is every gimp kill that he did, could have been easily avoided. both almost never go off stage because both have scary recoveries. u said falcons is easy to gimp, but the main way to is to bair him against the stage but if u go for that he can up b backwards and command grab you instead, while still being able to recover, given, there are other ways to gimp, fireballs, and other movement, but it becomes a lot harder when attempting it.
 

MarioMeteor

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He's most definitely solo viable. I'd say the only matchup of his that's really crippling is Sheik, and for her Lucario is a good counter.
 

Xeze

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Sheik isn't really criplling. Rosa is worse, imo. Both are doable though.
 

MarioMeteor

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Sheik isn't really criplling. Rosa is worse, imo. Both are doable though.
I don't think so. Mario almost goes even with Rosalina. He doesn't lose terribly to either of them, but Sheik is still the bigger threat.
 
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DunnoBro

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He's completely solo-viable, but since he's so simple and easy to learn, there's little reason to not invest in secondaries for him.
 
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