So, what's so wrong with clones, again?

[PrinnyFlute]

It seems to me like there's a lot of clone-bashing, and a lot of people crying out about how horrid it'd be to have clones in Brawl. So's I figured, why not get some discussion out here in the open air?

Is there a basic misunderstanding of what it is to be a clone character? It sometimes seems that people assume a character appearing as a clone is a sign of laziness or disrespect. Fortunately, that just isn't the case, and I'd like to tell you why I confidently think so.



It's obvious games only have so much time to spend in development, and only so much funding as well. Creating 'clone' characters is an efficient way of maximizing content and pleasing us players within those limits. There obviously isn't always time for a dev team to put in the effort of completely fleshing out every character in the game, so a good director (like Sakurai,) has an important choice to make:

In the time it creates to concept, model, texture, animate and program an entirely new moveset, debug, playtest and subsequently balance, and add in extra content (voice acting, trophies for that character, rearranging/redesigning the character selection screen to fit, and lots of little polish here and there,) just how many clones could you produce?

Considering that the requirements for a clone character are much lower, only requiring a new model and/or texture, animation adjustments, minimal programming, a tenth of the debugging and playtesting time of a full character, and all the same number of extras, the difference would seem staggering. A sensible estimate could be made that anywhere from 5 to 10 clone characters could be introduced in the time it takes to produce one full character.​

So the question we have to ask ourselves here is simply this: Given the choice, would you rather see 6 clone characters added onto the final roster, or just 1 original?

Don't be so quick to answer, either! While on the surface it might seem that what matters most is the number of fully original characters, it bears repeating that this isn't the case for many, many folks. Melee Pichu, Young Link, Dr. Mario and Falco players: Would you be willing to give up your character so that Gannondorf (rumored to have been pegged as another sword user during development,) could have been a fully fledged character? Would any admitted Gannondorf players be willing to abandon him so that, say, Pichu could've been his own full character? For all of us looking for a favorite in Brawl, would you have them excluded from being a clone so another character could be full?


Let's face it. Would you rather your fav Brawl contender appear as a clone, or not appear at all? Myself, I'd like to think it's always more fun to play as someone you enjoy rather than having to settle for second best. But then, maybe that's just me.


-My apologies if this post comes off as redundant, rule-betraying, or simply misguided in any way. Feel free to break this post like a twig!

 

[ClarkJables]

i think it would depend on who the original character is and who the clones were. i mean, if the original character offered us a completely different way to play smash, like IC or zelda did in melee, wouldn't you prefer that over some rehashed characters.
also i don't think there will be clones in brawl, because now they don't have a big deadline to make like they did when they were developing melee, they could push it back to 2008 if they needed too and we would probably keep waiting in anticipation.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

i think it would depend on who the original character is and who the clones were. i mean, if the original character offered us a completely different way to play smash, like IC or zelda did in melee, wouldn't you prefer that over some rehashed characters.
also i don't think there will be clones in brawl, because now they don't have a big deadline to make like they did when they were developing melee, they could push it back to 2008 if they needed too and we would probably keep waiting in anticipation.

Well, it depends. And honestly, it's a tough choice. Would I rather play Lucario with a -good- Mewtwo clone moveset, or would I rather have, say, Koopa come around with some wicked new shell control moveset? I think it's all a matter of personal choice, really. (Though I'd also like to think any characters with big, divergent gameplay styles like your examples would be made -before- the devs have to make an original vs clone choice.)

Nintendo does have a habit of being lenient on the side of quality versus release date, and I think we all want them to choose the side of quality when it comes to Smash. So I think the deadline for SSBB not being as concrete as previous games is probably a good bet. But still, there's always pressure from higher up in the corporate ladder, and even if Sakurai sets the deadline himself, will he decide on a finalized roster number and stop when all those characters are done, or will he keep trying to cram in characters until the very last minute?

 

[Bowserlick]

The clone debate really just comes down to preference. I have noticed that many tournament players prefer clones (because that way a certain moveset has more oppurtunity to fit their playstyle) while many casual players prefer original movesets over the same movesets with different stats.

But in Brawl Sakurai has mentioned that he wants to stay away from clones. It makes sense because he seems like a really creative guy who enjoys adding twists to characters. For example Yoshi only has two jumps and a strong yet restricted shield, Peach can hover, Ice Climbers fight as a duo, Zelda can transform, G&W represents a handheld system rather then an actual Nintendo character.

This does make the game more appealing. Clones for Melee, despite criticism, did make the game fun and in a way unique (it hadn't really been done before except with Luigi). But in a new game with new techinques (ex: crawling) there has to be a certain level of freshness and I don't think the clones can add to that anymore.

I think Sakurai is going to tackle difficult characters to translate into Smash for the new game. Such as Olimar with Pikmin, Tom Nook, Andross, Ridley, Midna on WolfLink, and maybe even the Mii.

Of course if Sakurai has left over time and cannot develop anything new, then clones are a welcome addition.

 

[Vampirekain]

Well i would say that clones indeed are a welcome addition but i think i speak for all of us when i say that we want every character to be unique! I can understand what PrinnyFlute says but i cant help but look at Ganondorf and sigh...I think he would be extremely interesting if he had a moveset of his own! So to sum up when it comes to my point of view clones are interesting but unwanted by the majority of people.

 

[OysterMeister]

I agree in full. In fact, I'll go one step further for you, I think there's an advantage of clones you left out:

Clones add diversity. I know this sounds weird, but just think about it. A clone adds a slightly different take on an already existing moveset. Link too slow? You've got Young Link to provide that speed boost. Fox and Falco are similar, but people who play them are willing to swear by one or the other, just based on their subtle differences. A clone character is a second chance at a moveset.

Now, in Brawl, I do think that the current clones (those who make it) should get a good revamp and be made full characters. But, once the clock winds down into those final few hours, I'm hoping the Brawl team decides to cram just a little more goodness into the game with a brand new batch of clones.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

Well, id prefer no clones. I do see what oystermeister is saying but clones just take up a very unique character slot. Sakurai wil bring back some clones but he will change the moveset (Ganondorf)

 

[OysterMeister]

Well, id prefer no clones. I do see what oystermeister is saying but clones just take up a very unique character slot.

Actually, clones can't take up a unique character slot because of what they are. A clone is added last, when there is no more time to make a unique character. I doubt that Sakaurai would have had enough time in melee to fully make a new unique character even if he had not made Ganondorf, Young Link, Falco, Roy, Pichu, or Dr. Mario.
So if you assume that Sakurai only adds clones when there is no other choice (which seems likely) then you can't say that clones are taking up a spot that would have gone to someone else. When it comes to clones, the only spot on the roster they take would just be empty without them.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

well, sakurai said they had a tough time cramming all those characters in. Also im sure they couldve made unique characters easily if they put a tad bit of mind into it, instead of making a bunch of clones. But maybe Nintendo wanted clones because of the reason you stated before, but now they realize how much space they waste with them and r trying to stay away from them.

 

[rm88]

In my opinion, clones should be late additions to the game, not planned characters. I'm fine with Luigi, but I'd trade Pichu, Falco, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf and Young Link for a completely original character.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

In my opinion, clones should be late additions to the game, not planned characters. I'm fine with Luigi, but I'd trade Pichu, Falco, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf and Young Link for a completely original character.

i agree completely.

 

[OysterMeister]

The thing is, you CAN'T trade the clones in for an original character, because an original character takes more work to create than a bunch of clones. If melee is any indication, at least six clones can be made in under the time it would take to make just one unique character, which makes perfect sense when you think it.
Besides, as someone who mains Ganondorf, I can say without a doubt that taking the clones out of Melee would be a bad thing. Although I'm also looking forward to Ganondorfs new moveset in Brawl.


Oh, and Luigi isn't a clone. He's similar to Mario, yes, but to be a clone you must be a modified version of an already existing character (cloned from them, as it were), and even a casual glance at Luigis moveset will tell you that he was built apart from Mario from the ground up in Melee.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Clones are a lazy, shallow way to make your character roster look big. If Ganon had a sword, if Falco had his own moveset, if Young Link were modelled after different games, I'd be a hell of a lot happier with SSBM. Say no to reskinned characters taking up the time and effort (or a tenth of it) from real characters.

 

[OysterMeister]

Argh, but they AREN'T. Clones are made AFTER the unique characters. They don't take time away from them because there's no time left to take.

To me, Dr. Mario is the biggest example of how hard the Melee team worked. When there were no good character ideas left, the Melee team decided that they'd STILL try and cram one more character in there, no matter how redundant and pointless he was. To me, that's effort. That proves that these guys used every second of development time they had.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

The thing is, you CAN'T trade the clones in for an original character, because an original character takes more work to create than a bunch of clones. If melee is any indication, at least six clones can be made in under the time it would take to make just one unique character, which makes perfect sense when you think it.
Besides, as someone who mains Ganondorf, I can say without a doubt that taking the clones out of Melee would be a bad thing. Although I'm also looking forward to Ganondorfs new moveset in Brawl.


Oh, and Luigi isn't a clone. He's similar to Mario, yes, but to be a clone you must be a modified version of an already existing character (cloned from them, as it were), and even a casual glance at Luigis moveset will tell you that he was built apart from Mario from the ground up in Melee.

well, okay. the clones are young link, falco, ganondorf, pichu, dr. mario, and Roy. (there might be more i cant remember) I think 2 or 3 original characters can be made if you take all of them out (well, actually, keep ganondorf in.) Original characters dont take up much more time to make then clones. The only stuff more that u gotta do is make a good moveset, which people on this board usually make, and do it in 10 minutes. Making a whole new character design is not MUCH of a diffulctulty either. ANd i bet the few other things cant be much of a nuisance.

and no one said luigi was a lame clone... he isnt one mostly because he's mario's brother, not the fact that i think, four moves are different from him.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

Argh, but they AREN'T. Clones are made AFTER the unique characters. They don't take time away from them because there's no time left to take.

To me, Dr. Mario is the biggest example of how hard the Melee team worked. When there were no good character ideas left, the Melee team decided that they'd STILL try and cram one more character in there, no matter how redundant and pointless he was. To me, that's effort. That proves that these guys used every second of development time they had.

uh... if they're were no more character ideas left then why are the people on this site flinging great ideas like crazy. Only rarely do our charcter ideas aren't good enough.

 

[rm88]

I get your point, I'd prefer having Dr. Mario than having one less character, but if there's possibilty of a completely original roster, that would be ideal.

 

[LostAddict]

Like Bowser lick ingeniously said:

It all comes down to preference.

I personally, would prefer to have no clones. Why?
I felt that it was insulting that Ganondorf was a clone of Captain Falcon, yes, I would rather he wasn't included then for him to be a clone. I feel it cheapens the character. You can argue with this all you want, but my opinion stands that I feel Ganondorf's character was cheapened/lessened by his clone status.

Furthermore, half the clones that do show up I just find undesireable characters. Characters like Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu and Roy. I just feel in a lineup of all stars they shouldn't be in, I mean there's so many better characters than them that are much bigger all-stars.

Yes, I know they were quick additions, therefore nullifying "there's better characters" but all I can think of when someone is playing them is "Why are they in when _________ wasn't?"

I know that this isn't the case, as they did them quickly and they were alot faster than original characters, but that's just how they make me feel. I just feel that they aren't worth it.

Furthermore, I don't think clones are really needed this time around. Why?

Melee had a very strict time limit, it had to be released alongside/ close to Gamecube launch, and thus had very limited time to develop. Chances are they DID want to fill out the roster more, and thus created clones, which I can't blame them for due to their strict time limit.

This time around Brawl has no official release date (I believe Sakurai said it would be released in Japan in 2007, but that leaves all the way to December 31st, and I'm not sure if that was official) so I don't think there's a huge need to fill out the roster.

I would prefer the game to be delayed by a couple of months to fully flesh out the roster/characters than have six clones added in. Just my opinion.

 

[rm88]

I agree, clones should just be added if necessary.

 

[OysterMeister]

uh... if they're were no more character ideas left then why are the people on this site flinging great ideas like crazy. Only rarely do our charcter ideas aren't good enough.

Well, you got me there. What I meant was that there were no more good character ideas left that could be implemented within the time limit, but that takes so long to say...
As I said, Clones are added at the last minute, when any chance of starting a new, unique character doesn't exist (or so I assume).
So, sure, there were ideas, but the only characters they could fit in were ones that could be cloned off the already existing characters, and that's limiting. I think that by the time Dr. Mario was added, they were pushing the deadline and scrapping the bottom of the barrel.


And I agree with you rm88. A unique character is always the best choice, but when that's no longer an option, I'm all for filling in the corners with clones.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

Well, you got me there. What I meant was that there were no more good character ideas left that could be implemented within the time limit, but that takes so long to say...
As I said, Clones are added at the last minute, when any chance of starting a new, unique character doesn't exist (or so I assume).
So, sure, there were ideas, but the only characters they could fit in were ones that could be cloned off the already existing characters, and that's limiting. I think that by the time Dr. Mario was added, they were pushing the deadline and scrapping the bottom of the barrel.


And I agree with you rm88. A unique character is always the best choice, but when that's no longer an option, I'm all for filling in the corners with clones.

im all for delaying games so they can be made perfect.

 

[kmokmo]

Well i think clones are okay because they add different ways to play the same moveset. I would like some clones to appesr in brawl if they run short on time, though without a time limit this isn't plausable. but ideally unique characters and maby some caracters with similar but still distinct movesets (Luigi for example).

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Clones are a lazy, shallow way to make your character roster look big. If Ganon had a sword, if Falco had his own moveset, if Young Link were modelled after different games, I'd be a hell of a lot happier with SSBM. Say no to reskinned characters taking up the time and effort (or a tenth of it) from real characters.

Honestly? I've got to disagree. Sometimes, slight variations are good enough. Maybe I like Fox's moveset but think the bugger could be a little more solidly weighted. Tada, Falco.

All original characters is the state we're hoping for, sure, and Sakurai's said himself he's trying for it. But there's a big difference between 'lazy' and efficient. Between 'lazy' and a decision that will actually please most people who play the game.

There's no way in heck I'd prefer a small, 'perfect' character roster to one with bucketloads of fanservice characters. Games are about being fun, and, well, for me? The most fun part about Smash isn't playing a great fighting game that happens to have characters I know and love, but instead playing as characters that I know and love in a great fighting game. As long as the fighting is balanced, varied, and fun, my friend: send in the clones.

 

[J Tangle]

"Super Smash Bros Brawl New Rumor
On a programmer for Super Smash Bros Brawl Japanese blog , they’ve released two new secrets about Super Smash Bros Brawl For Nintendo Wii.
Firts secret is that each level will feature destructable terrain that will burn, blow up or even crumble away.

The Second secret is that characters will be customizable.
Each character will have an array of new moves which you can assign and adjust including speed and power statistics, and even the ability to customise costumes."

This cuts out the need for clones

I love melee and I think brawl will put that to shame if They need more time for more characters let them have it Im willing to wait for a great game, but this info lets u know the need for clones is now in the past.

 

[J Tangle]

http://www.nwiizone.com/nintendo-wii/nwii/super-smash-bros-brawl-will-have-destructable-terrain/

Hell in melee the only reason I chose clones was to not have the same character as my oppenent. In the end clones were pretty much early customization traits of brawl.
you chose ylink for speed, link for power, c.falcon for speed, ganon for power.
Since now we can customize whats the use of clones if we can change stats on individual characters.

 

[OysterMeister]

This is an old, old rumor. Besides, I'm worried about being able to customize characters, since it might upset the fantastic balance that the game already has.

Besides, you said it yourself earlier, clones add more than moveset diversity to the game, they also add visual diversity.

I play both a Falco player and a Fox player regularly, usualy at the same time. And every now and then one of them will switch characters. I can tell you beyond any doubt that it is far more fun to fight a Falco and a Fox than to fight either two Foxs or two Falcos.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

As for clones... Falco/Fox and CF/Ganon are some of my favorite characters. I want those movesets to remain at least partially how they are, though Ganon really doesn't seem like he should have those type of moves... so I like clones as long as they're different enough.

 

[Eight Sage]

In SSBB, I didn't know that Ganondorf was in.

When I unlocked him, I was very excited, but when I discovered that he had Falcon's moves I was very very disappointed.

No more clones pleas, even if it means less char.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think most people will agree that it is ok to add clones at the end when there is no time to make a completely new character.

The schism lies in flavor vs statistics during development.

The people who lean toward flavor, want to see original characters that offer something new to the game. They might be rooting for Balloon fighters with a system involving falling velocity depending on the number of attatched balloons, or Tom Nook with his diverse bag of goods and fishing pole based attacks, or Olimar with his band of Pikmin.

These people believe originality adds fun and playtime to the game. Without flavor, we would not get duo fighters in the IC's, transformation in the form of Zelda and Sheik, or a representation of a handheld system in G&W. Fox and Captain Falcon would not have movesets.

Then there are the people who lean toward statistics. Generally these people want to improve their game to perfection. Link is dreadfully slow. A Link fan may be yearning to play Link, but just cannot deal with the lag. Young Link, however, offers the same moveset but with a new take.

This camp may be willing to sacrifice one original character for three clone characters each with an altered moveset based on statistic rearranging.

Without clones, people are stuck with one version of one moveset. And the variation on the movesets in most cases changes playstyle drastically. Without clones we would not have Falco's stun laser or his famous spike. We would not have the pills with their cool sound effects or Gannondorf's insane Wizard Foot.

Those are the two camps. Some people may lie in the middle in their choices or lean to one side or the other.

Personally I would take flavor over a moveset change. Since even though a moveset change effects playstyle, the moves still look (for the most part) identical.

 

[J Tangle]

I can tell you beyond any doubt that it is far more fun to fight a Falco and a Fox than to fight either two Foxs or two Falcos.

Thats fun to you well it would be more fun if fox & falco had different moves that played off each other rather than stat clones they were virtually the same except one fast one strong

 

[J Tangle]

Without clones, people are stuck with one version of one moveset. And the variation on the movesets in most cases changes playstyle drastically. Without clones we would not have Falco's stun laser or his famous spike. We would not have the pills with their cool sound effects or Gannondorf's insane Wizard Foot.

You make a very great point, but if that is the case then they could take just the uniqe moves of the clones and build around that. There is still the customization rumor which would end the need of a faster link or making falco as fast as fox or even fox as strong as falco.

 

[Bowserlick]

True. I was just pointing out the two sides of the argument.

I for one prefer original characters and am kinda against custominzation.

The flaw in custominzation is that a character is designed to be balanced. (Because people ar enot perfect, the developers will never make a perfectly balanced character, but they try).

Bowser for example, maybe be given a great adapatable move (the whirling fortress) only because he is slow and lumbersome and thus cannot exploit its full potential. Which is good because otherwise he can become an unfair character. But if you can sacrifice some strength for less lag and faster stats this move may become "cheap."

The only customization I think could work and be fun is having one extra B move that can be swapped for another.

 

[OysterMeister]

Or maybe super smashes are customizeable. Maybe you get to pick from a variety for each character, or something like that.

And J Tangle, yes, fighting two different characters would be more fun, but sometimes that isn't an option. People tend to like the Fox moveset, so it's not uncommon to find someone who plays Fox. Now, if Falco wasn't in the game as a clone, I'd be fighting two Foxs ALL THE TIME. That's not very fun. And if Falco WAS in the game, but as a completely unique character, like you said, then I'd STILL be fighting two Foxs all the time.
Clones can never be a substitute for more unique characters, but as a substitue for already existing characters they work fantasticaly. Popular characters will always suffer from over-representation (how many sheik or marth players do you know?) but if you've got a clone of that character, it helps preserve a little diversity. And that's a good thing.

 

[Wrath`]

I didnt read any post above,so if i say somthing someone eles said sorry.


I dont like clones,but i see why they are usefull,If you like to play with c falcon,but dont like the lack of power then you have gannon who has a simmalar moveset(so you are not confussed)and has power you need.

Clones are used so there are some diffrent stlys with same movsets

 

[J Tangle]

Aight i understand where u are coming from now OyMe. What I want though is for the clone/Original ratio to be smaller. I think melee's number of uniqe characters was small so im hoping brawl will turn things around

 

[OysterMeister]

Aight i understand where u are coming from now OyMe. What I want though is for the clone/Original ratio to be smaller. I think melee's number of uniqe characters was small so im hoping brawl will turn things around

No need to worry about that. Assuming that they still only make clones when the deadline is near, I wouldn't expect the number of clones to change much from Melee to Brawl. There's only so many clones you can make in the time it takes to make a unique character, so the number is already self-limited. Based on Melee, I'd say that six seems to be the general rule, although there may be slightly more since the development team is so much larger this time around.