So what makes Diddy top tier?

[AkitoUF]

I'm more a "for fun" Smash player but can't help to feel curious about what makes Diddy so hated in this game and learning this can be helpful, for me he's just like everyone else.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Colin Steele]

An up-air that kills at ludicrously low percentages and is insanely easy to combo into. He has a command grab and a projectile with 0 knockback that sets up combos. He has almost no lag on his aerials and so you have very little vulnerability time when landing.

Many of the characters in Smash were heavily buffed from their Brawl counterparts, like Sheik and Yoshi, while others were left in the dust. Diddy was not one that was left in the dust.

 

[AlextheTwin]

His up air mainly, which has really good KO potential. Pretty much everyone agrees needs a nerf. Overall just very little lag and incredibly strong juggling combo game.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Diddy is very good at getting grabs, especially if he has a banana in his hand. He rips through every characters' defenses and can pretty much nullify shields. Holding your shield? Banana toss -> grab. Jump out of it? Nope, banana toss -> grab. Roll? Any player with a decent grasp of fundamentals can punish excessive rolling, but Diddy gets the greatest reward from it. There's also Monkey Flip, which is a really good command grab that's invincible at its start.

Also forward smash moves Diddy's hurtbox slightly upward, allowing him to dodge some d-smashes OoS. It's not an easy move to punish either.

Diddy has really good aerials, all but one of which can be used to follow his lagless d-throw with, that one being n-air. N-air is still good because it too is practically lagless and combos into u-air, which is his best aerial.

He's more susceptible to gimps than others, but his ground game makes up for that weakness tenfold. Some top players think Pikachu and Sheik are better, just like how they thought Pikachu had an even matchup with Meta Knight in Brawl, but tournament results tend to prove the opposite (and in Brawl's case, the top Pikachu always lost to top MK players).

 

[Dissent]

Diddy is very good at getting grabs, especially if he has a banana in his hand. He rips through every characters' defenses and can pretty much nullify shields. Holding your shield? Banana toss -> grab. Jump out of it? Nope, banana toss -> grab. Roll? Any player with a decent grasp of fundamentals can punish excessive rolling, but Diddy gets the greatest reward from it.

It is 2015 if people are still getting grabbed after every banana toss at shield they're simply inexperienced, there are so many options out of this scenario. There's not even grab armor in this game so you have even more options.

There's also Monkey Flip, which is a really good command grab that's invincible at its start.

No?

Also forward smash moves Diddy's hurtbox slightly upward, allowing him to dodge some d-smashes OoS. It's not an easy move to punish either.

Every character can punish it.

Some top players think Pikachu and Sheik are better, just like how they thought Pikachu had an even matchup with Meta Knight in Brawl, but tournament results tend to prove the opposite (and in Brawl's case, the top Pikachu always lost to top MK players).

ESAM's Pikachu took tons of games and/or sets off of all of the top MKs (Zero, M2K, Ally, Tyrant, etc) in Brawl. Sheik is better than Diddy in Smash 4 because Diddy has just as much trouble killing as Sheik does if the opponent knows how to DI properly, but Sheik wracks up damage far faster and more reliably than Diddy. Sheik has more frame trap options than Diddy and has several guaranteed kills out of throws that cannot be DI'd out of. Just because a Sheik didn't win Apex doesn't mean she's worse than Diddy. Neitono and Mr. R both were likely jetlagged and still performed as well as they did.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

*looks at your miniprofile* ...Heh.

It is 2015 if people are still getting grabbed after every banana toss at shield they're simply inexperienced, there are so many options out of this scenario. There's not even grab armor in this game so you have even more options.

It's not just banana toss at shield, it covers your jump too and Diddy's dash grab is great so he closes the gap pretty quickly. And outside of jabbing it, perfect shielding it, catching it, or simply retreating, you don't have many options when facing a Diddy with a banana in his hand. It's not the end of the world. I'll add that perfect shielding or catching it requires a ton of precision; they're not guaranteed to work.

No?

yeah dude

Every character can punish it.

True. But it has ridiculous reach and punishing it while Diddy is behind a banana is borderline impossible. And that's another thing: Diddy controls a lot of the stage with the banana.

ESAM's Pikachu took tons of games and/or sets off of all of the top MKs (Zero, M2K, Ally, Tyrant, etc) in Brawl. Sheik is better than Diddy in Smash 4 because Diddy has just as much trouble killing as Sheik does if the opponent knows how to DI properly, but Sheik wracks up damage far faster and more reliably than Diddy. Sheik has more frame trap options than Diddy and has several guaranteed kills out of throws that cannot be DI'd out of. Just because a Sheik didn't win Apex doesn't mean she's worse than Diddy. Neitono and Mr. R both were likely jetlagged and still performed as well as they did.

These random sets don't mean much because they didn't decide their respective tournaments, at the end of the day ESAM had to pocket Ice Climbers to help with the MK matchup because his Pikachu consistently lost to Meta Knight (just not as hard as the rest of the cast). Diddy Kong is much better at KOing and doesn't really have trouble racking up damage, Sheik requires much more precision, because she's the more technical character and has fewer reliable KO moves. He has KO moves in f-air, f-smash, and u-air, which while few, they're not impossible to string/connect. With d-throw, Diddy can position his opponent to where f-air and u-air KO even earlier. DI'ing Diddy Kong != instantly beating him, all of his aerials cover whatever DI you implement unless you're at a higher percentage and maybe if Diddy has enough rage where d-throw doesn't combo as well. Jetlag isn't an excuse and doesn't mean Sheik is better, or that they would have won the tournament had they not been on a plane at any time.

Stop trying to fabricate weaknesses. Diddy is definitely top tier in this game, and Pikachu and Sheik aren't better characters. He's certainly not unbeatable, but he lacks any glaring weaknesses, at least not any that can be greatly capitalized on by any other character in the game.

And it's not that a "Sheik didn't win Apex", it's that a Sheik hasn't won anything major where there's a top level Diddy Kong present. No character has won anything major where there's a top level Diddy Kong present, and I'm talking on ZeRo's or Rain's level, not the Melee players who pick Diddy in Smash 4 because his metagame is extremely simple and they don't want to invest any time into the game using any other character.

 

[Empty Number]

*looks at your miniprofile* ...Heh.

No need for disrespect. Dissent is a great player. The fact that he mains Diddy Kong doesn't change that.

And it's not that a "Sheik didn't win Apex", it's that a Sheik hasn't won anything major where there's a top level Diddy Kong present. No character has won anything major where there's a top level Diddy Kong present, and I'm talking on ZeRo's or Rain's level, not the Melee players who pick Diddy in Smash 4 because his metagame is extremely simple and they don't want to invest any time into the game using any other character.

Yes. This is because ZeRo is a top level player. If he enters a tournament and picks a character that he's competent with, there's a pretty good shot he'll win it. He has devoted far more time to Smash 4 than any other player out there. I'll put it this way: If ZeRo were not at APEX, I'm hesitant to think we'd have seen a Diddy Kong win it. The only other player capable of being close to ZeRo's level is M2K, and he dropped to Dabuz's Olimar. It seems that players are starting to adapt to Diddy and figure out how to play the MU.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

No need for disrespect. Dissent is a great player. The fact that he mains Diddy Kong doesn't change that.

That wasn't meant to disrespect him, it was more of a "I see why you don't think Diddy is top tier". No disrespect intended.

Yes. This is because ZeRo is a top level player. If he enters a tournament and picks a character that he's competent with, there's a pretty good shot he'll win it. He has devoted far more time to Smash 4 than any other player out there. I'll put it this way: If ZeRo were not at APEX, I'm hesitant to think we'd have seen a Diddy Kong win it. The only other player capable of being close to ZeRo's level is M2K, and he dropped to Dabuz's Olimar. It seems that players are starting to adapt to Diddy and figure out how to play the MU.

I wouldn't say M2K is on his level given he's entirely invested in another game (Melee). He may be close, but I would say that Jtails is closer if we're talking strictly Diddy mains or Mr. R, Ally, and 6WX if we're talking player-wise.

There is a way to play and beat Diddy but there is no room for error. I don't even believe Diddy has any bad matchups. He certainly has even ones, but at this point I'm not seeing any weaknesses.

 

[Dissent]

This is my second account. My previous account, Sails, is inactive. I have played Diddy at tournaments since 2010 and I started and completed a chunk of the Matchup threads for Diddy in mid-era Brawl. I placed 65th at Apex 2015, I'm power ranked in New England, and I have made over $400 in winnings in New England since WiiU release, and my old account is in the Diddy Kong Backroom. I'm not some nobody that senselessly defends my main.

How does shielding the banana cover your jump? After it bounces off your shield you can safely jump out of shield and grab it out of the air.

Bananas are dramatically less reliable for stage control as they used to be. Character feet physically have to step on them and they have to be essentially dashing now to trip on them. Even characters like Olimar can dash straight over opponent controlled bananas and not slip because the slipbox is so small and feet are precise now. They also disappear after being hit or thrown twice.

There is no invincibility or super armor on the monkey flip. This is a misconception based on the flashing he does indicating the command grab.

DI will save you at nearly all percents off throws from Diddy provided the location is a neutral situation.

I never said anything about Pikachu being better than Diddy in Smash 4, I was defending the idea that Pikachu could be a viable counter to MK in Brawl. There were extremely few high level Pikachu players in Brawl, all people had to do was learn the habits of ESAM and they "learned" the matchup. If more had performed on his level, I stand by that it would be received as +1 in Pika's favor. ESAM was also very good at falling apart near the end of sets/games. He was known to input SD's and get visibly frustrated mid-match which is never good for focusing.

I haven't fabricated any weaknesses. If you have paid attention to results and statistics, Diddy's player count has declined sharply. Drop Zero from the equation and it puts him on par with the rest of the high tier characters in terms of tournament winning/top 8. One player that exploits habits, mindsets, and player created openings doesn't mean much for the character. There are also a lot of matchups Diddy struggles with much like Brawl, ones that Sheik has more options for.

I remain steadfast in believing Sheik is better than Diddy, but not by much. I just see her as having more slightly more reliable but harder to master combo/kill/gimp/frametrap/trump options.

 

[Boigahs]

Diddy is a pretty good character, but then a handful of top smashers decided he was broken, and the bandwagons and slippery slopes just kept piling up from there.
Since people think he's top tier, they play him more, and people get better at playing him, and the perception of him being broken keeps building. It's the classic tier bandwagon. On top of that, people blow his down-throw into up-air completely out of proportion and misinformation keeps spreading.
Also, judging a character's tier by tournament results is very stupid. A character doesn't win a tournament, the player does. Street Fighter 4 at EVO 2013 was won by a guy playing Gen, who is generally considered a fairly low-tier character.
I earnestly believe that Diddy is considered top tier just because people want him to be top tier more than that he's actually a good character. People love complaining about Diddy, or bragging about him, or making image edits about him, and just talking about him. It's turned into a big community joke (?) that perpetuates itself. Diddy doesn't dominate tournaments near as much as people make him out to. It's very similar to the Melee Fox-Only gag.
All in all, it's far too early to call characters broken. The game is still very young and is changing every day. Take a look at any tierlist and see how much it changes.

 

[IWinToLose]

Don't forget that DTilt is a 4 frame move that kills too... It leads to guaranteed FAir's and UAir's at kill %'s and is practically impossible to DI in time.

Diddy's Bair on shield is almost 100% safe. 1-3 frame jabs can punish it but most of the cast can't do anything about it. Diddy's Fair on shield is safe against most of the cast at certain ranges. Diddy only needs to grab you twice to get you to 40%+ damage. Diddy can get guaranteed UAirs by spamming it when you're in the air. The 2nd UAir after the opponent air dodges the first one is guaranteed if you predict their DI and time it properly.

Diddy's OOS punishes are probably the best in the game with Grabs leading to 32% damage or kills and OOS SH FAir/BAir or Banana to cover faster recovering moves that are further away/behind you. OOS UAir can lead to combos and juggles.

Diddy has mixups on top of mix ups that beat or trade favorably with every other character in the game. For example, while Diddy is landing, almost every character has to play defensively and read the Diddy. Almost no other character has this luxury except perhaps Shiek. If you run in and try to hit Diddy, you may eat a disjointed 12% damage FAir to the face. If you decide to shield, he can FAir at certain ranges and be safe or even monkey flip right before he lands to cover back rolls, mistimed spot dodges, retreats, dash ins, shields and even beats most attacks. No other character has such powerful landing options that consistently force you to defend or retreat (which gives Diddy a free banana if he guesses this) while landing. Also, FAir beats almost any other character's frontal aerial approach options or trades favorably in 95% of situations (no other char has such a fast long ranged Fair that does 12% damage). UAir beats almost all approach options from above (it loses to Kirby's rock and perhaps Links Dair which are both insanely unsafe) and combos like crazy or kills.

No other characters have the same damage potential as Diddy OOS, from unblockable moves/grabs, or incredibly fast and safe moves (except for perhaps Shiek). No other character has the same amount of safety/reward ratio as Diddy. While I don't think Diddy is unbeatable (he is quite gimpable), it is easy to see why he is the best character.

And finally, no other character has Diddy's UAir

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I feel like Diddy is the best, but one thing I noticed about this sub-forum is that everybody's main reason for Diddy not being first is:

"The meta will develop and his bananas/u-air/whatever will be avoidable!"

I could say the same for Sheik's fair and bouncing fish, pikachus thunder, ZSS down-b and stun gun, etc. I could even downgrade somelow/mid characters EVEN MORE by saying for example, "The meta will develop and Kirby's d-air combo starters will be easily avoided!" Or "People will stop being hit by Samus' charge shot when the meta develops!"

Just stop using that excuse. I believe Diddy Kong is better, but I'm not letting Sheik/Pikachu stay below because the meta, I believe Diddy is better, simple as that.

 

[IWinToLose]

I feel like Diddy is the best, but one thing I noticed about this sub-forum is that everybody's main reason for Diddy not being first is:

"The meta will develop and his bananas/u-air/whatever will be avoidable!"

I agree with you Maz. This mentality simply doesn't work because Diddy's options will limit the other character's options.

I am going to use Sonic as an example because this is a match up I am fairly familiar with. No matter what, let's say, Sonic does, that won't change the fact that if Sonic does A, Diddy does Z, Diddy wins. Now one could argue that Sonic could do B to beat Diddy's Z, but in the end you'll realize that Diddy's options overwhelmingly beat Sonic's options.

To give you an actual example:
Sonic charges Spin Dash
Diddy shields

Option A:
Sonic unleashes Spin Dash
Diddy SH Fairs as soon as Sonic releases Spin Dash and gets close to Diddy

Sonic jumps to try to catch Diddy in the air, eats Fair
Sonic goes under Diddy, Diddy can simply FF auto cancel shield on reaction to a reverse Spin Dash or react to Sonic's jump, resets to neutral with a frame disadvantage for Sonic (if he lets Spin Dash end on the ground) or goes to the air game which Sonic is at risk of getting juggled and has a huge disadvantage

Option B:
Sonic cancels Spin Dash and runs in
Diddy SH Fairs as soon as Sonic tries to run in or sees Sonic's shield or drops his shield

Sonic does a SH to try an aerial approach, eats Fair (this is why Sonic's don't try aerial approaches on Diddy)
Sonic dash attacks, likely to miss or to get shielded. Even on hit, it does 6% and you should not aggressively pursue Diddy in the air as you're likely to eat a Fair (this is why Sonic's don't do this against Diddy's usually)
Sonic dashes in and shields. In 90% of situations, Sonic will be unable to punish this and this simply resets to neutral

Here we see that a simple SH Fair limits Sonic's options to running in, shielding, and going for the read (Sonic actually does have 1-2 more tools against this but not for the sake of this argument). At this point, Diddy can counter with an empty hop Dtilt, grab, or Monkey Flip before landing. He can also counter by simply just grabbing Sonic before Sonic can grab him (Diddy will beat Sonic out on his grab if you time it properly). We also see that while Sonic may also land a grab on Diddy, Sonic's throws do a maximum of 12% (without pummel) at very low %'s (Up Throw Up Air, stops comboing around 20%) while Diddy's throws do a minimum of 15%, up to 32% depending on %'s and DI, and can out right kill you. These trades are all unfavorable for Sonic.

Damage if Sonic wins the reading game:
6%-12%
Damage if Diddy wins the reading game:
12%-32%

Obviously I am simplifying the match up and this is only analyzing Diddy's SH Fair tool vs Sonic's forward approaching SD options (let's not even get into the banana dynamic, Diddy's aerial game, or Diddy's kill options). Keep in mind that Sonic is one of the best characters in the game and it's easy to see that Diddy has a clear advantage over him. This is only more difficult for the rest of the cast (barring Sheik).

It may take a year of advanced tech, Pikachu's mastering their quick attacks, or something as radical as custom moves to dethrone Diddy, but for now, this little chimp will continue to take tournaments more than any other char all across the globe.

 

[Dissent]

I feel like Diddy is the best, but one thing I noticed about this sub-forum is that everybody's main reason for Diddy not being first is:

"The meta will develop and his bananas/u-air/whatever will be avoidable!"

Meta development isn't strictly people learning specific character options. It also includes;
Ruleset changes (LGL was introduced and stages were limited to hinder MK for the majority of Brawls competitive life)
Gameplay shifts (Campiness became the priority in Brawl down the line)
Universal tech discoveries

If you really want to convince people that you think Diddy is the best even at this time, determine how the following are in Diddy's favor;

[Sheik vs Diddy]

• Who has a faster, reliable neutral game?
• Who has better ground game?
  • Aerial?
• Who has more frame traps?
  • That kill?
• Who has more combo potential?
  • After including DI?
  • That lead in to guaranteed kill moves?
• Who is harder to gimp?
  • Has a better recovery move?
• Who has can trump faster?
  • Who has more reliable kill options after one?
• Who has a better projectile factoring in damage and gimp potential?
• Who has better shield pressure and pressure resistance?
• Who is easier to learn and win with?

These can be easily determined and are relevant to the current meta.

My results:

Spoiler

[Sheik vs Diddy]

• Who has a faster, reliable neutral game?
• Who has better ground game?
  • Aerial?
• Who has more frame traps?
  • That kill?
• Who has more combo potential?
  • After including DI?
  • That lead in to guaranteed kill moves?
• Who is harder to gimp?
  • Has a better recovery move?
• Who has can trump faster?
  • Who has more reliable kill options after one?
• Who has a better projectile factoring in damage and gimp potential?
• Who has better shield pressure and pressure resistance?
• Who is easier to learn and win with?

Stop centralizing the meta/tiers to a few decent almost-auto-combos and tournament winnings that are factually skewed by one player.

 

[IWinToLose]

It's funny to see the dynamic that is Diddy mains vs non-Diddy mains. Just because you can't beat everyone you fight doesn't make Diddy not number 1. Also, admitting Diddy is number 1 doesn't make you a bad player. You were already a bad player as all of us here probably are. How often do you see any of the best ever contribute to these discussions? Finally, our discussion here will have no impact on whether Diddy is nerfed or not.

I do agree with the statement that Sheik is more pressure resistant but I disagree with pretty much everything else on your list. Some of these categories are pretty even making it difficult to decide who is better. Given this, it is easy to see why Sheik is a close number 2, possibly fighting for the number 1 spot but coming a bit short IMO.

Diddy's are winning regardless if it's Zero or not. It's not just one player.

Finally, are you serious about Sheik killing easier and having better kill options? Because if you are, I can't take you seriously at all.

 

[Dissent]

It's funny to see the dynamic that is Diddy mains vs non-Diddy mains. Just because you can't beat everyone you fight doesn't make Diddy not number 1. Also, admitting Diddy is number 1 doesn't make you a bad player. You were already a bad player as all of us here probably are.

Is this directed at me? I've only won more tournaments in New England for Smash 4 than anyone else and have placed in the money at all but one of them thus far. But I guess I'm a bad player because you said so despite having many ranked wins.

How often do you see any of the best ever contribute to these discussions?

They have, on Facebook, Reddit, here and while streaming. The majority has been on Facebook, from what I have seen.

I do agree with the statement that Sheik is more pressure resistant but I disagree with pretty much everything else on your list. Some of these categories are pretty even making it difficult to decide who is better. Given this, it is easy to see why Sheik is a close number 2, possibly fighting for the number 1 spot but coming a bit short IMO.

I'll do an in-depth analysis/comparison when I get a chance.

Diddy's are winning regardless if it's Zero or not. It's not just one player.

There was a graph detailing the character usage winnings without Zero. It was quite diverse. I'll pull it up when I'm not at work.

Finally, are you serious about Sheik killing easier and having better kill options? Because if you are, I can't take you seriously at all.

Are you seriously serious about being serious?

 

[Belgrim]

Keyboard warriors man.

 

[slavoslav]

I've only won more tournaments in New England for Smash 4 than anyone else and have placed in the money at all but one of them thus far.

with diddy kong
i'm not impressed

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I don't know who said this, but I know someone here said that Diddy wouldn't be top 5 without his u-air. I was like: :o wut