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So what is the general opinion of Mario's tier placement?

Top 5-6 or falling into the top 15?


  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Eight_SixtyFour

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
622
Can we use the Q and A threads for this?

I'd probably put him as the worst character in the Top 10. He has issues against characters with safe-ish disjoints and he's fairly linear. However, his juggling game, combo game and above average frame data make him a tough matchup for most characters (best case scenario is an even matchup).
 

Anter

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
19
Can we use the Q and A threads for this?

I'd probably put him as the worst character in the Top 10. He has issues against characters with safe-ish disjoints and he's fairly linear. However, his juggling game, combo game and above average frame data make him a tough matchup for most characters (best case scenario is an even matchup).
I pretty much agree with this. Mario doesn't have anything that makes him outright broken, and he has enough strong options that he'll probably always be near the top.
 

Captain Phobos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
134
Location
Minnesota, United States
I don't exactly have a set place for him, but I would say he's in a high tier (not top, but high). He has a lot of favorable matchups, and is very well rounded for fighting most characters.
 

Hat N' Clogs

John Tavares is a Leaf
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
7,858
Location
Southern tier NY state
3DS FC
1650-2469-6836
Switch FC
SW-3519-9567-9870
I still think he could be a top 5 character. While he isn't overly dominant like Diddy or to an extent Bayo, I still think he's one of the best characters in the game, and potentially worthy enough of top 5. On my personal tier list right now, he's fighting for 5th place with Cloud.

I also have some more detailed thoughts in this document that I worked on a while ago, and have updated over time. My opinions and thoughts will probably change over time depending on the meta though.

Mario Analysis- The red plumber’s place in the meta in Smash 4

I have heard the joke a few times of how “Mario isn’t even top 10/5, fam! Lol” It originated from Cloud 9’s Elliot “Ally” Carroza-Oayrce being pessimistic about his character, and not believing that he is a top tier for a while. Even so, Ally has won many nationals over the past many months, and he is one of the reason why Mario has risen to new levels, and is currently 6th place out of 58 on the current Smash 4 tier list, which gives him a high position in the 2nd highest tier of A rank. However, even with this claim Ally made a while back, it has become an opinion of some of the Smash 4 community that Mario doesn’t deserve top 5/bordering top 5, and would be better fit for a much lower position, such as 10-15. With the 3rd official tier list being out for a while, along with new national tournaments occurring most weekends, I figured it would be a better time than ever to analyze not only one of my mains, but also my favorite video game character of all time. Is he really top 5 or borderline top 5 like the backroom says? Or is he not even close? I personally think he could be deserving of top 5, and I will explain why, right now.

Before we get into Mario’s hardcore stats and tournament results, the first point I would like to cover is my own personal thoughts, beliefs, and philosophy of Smash 4 gameplay and meta growth. Unlike the past official Smash Bros. games, Smash 4 is pretty well balanced. Aside from the bottom 7 or so (out of 58 characters), it feels like every character, whether they’re the best in the game or a low tier, has the tools to at least be better than a useless, trash character. Famous examples of even low tiers being half-decent includes Prince Ramen and Palutena knocking the best smash 4 player in the world; ZeRo, and his Diddy Kong into losers bracket at CEO 2016, and at Genesis 4, a Duck Hunt main named Brood was able to knock ZeRo into losers with Duck Hunt. A third notable example is when Dath, the best Robin main in the world, was able to get 3rd place at Shine 2016 with his affirmed character, only losing out to ESAM and his Pikachu in 2nd, and ZeRo and his Diddy Kong in 1st. There are plenty of other upsets that occur within Smash 4, and those are three of the most memorable examples. With observing all of these upsets in our meta, the biggest and most important factor is that a main and his or her character absolutely NEED to adapt. Unlike most Smash games, the majority of the cast can pose a serious threat at least some of the time, and adapting is more important than ever before. With that in mind, I think Mario is one of those characters who is the best at adapting because of how well-rounded he is. My belief about Smash 4 in this meta growth context is that adapting is very vital (moreso than any other smash bros game) because adapting is so central to Smash 4’s engine and meta, due to the solid character balance.

Mario is a character who does fulfill this adaptation role. One of his main strengths is being very well-balanced, and aside from having a mediocre attack range, he has the tools to adapt to any matchup. Mario has an amazingly strong combo game, one of the best frame data stat averages on normals in the roster, a quick and safe recovery, overall good movement speed, solid neutral, and a slew of KO moves. Not only can Mario get in with his amazingly fast moves, but he can also combo you very well in most circumstances. Thirdly, his KO moves. Mario has a ton of KO moves, most notably his up smash. While it does have a bit of end lag on the end, as long as you time it correctly, it becomes a very scary move. It can KO a Diddy Kong at a solid 125% and much earlier with rage. The pivot jump cancel up smash tech also helps the smash’s mind game potential, along with KOing very consistently. Mario also has f-smash, down smash, back throw, super jump punch, down air, and up air near the ceiling, and back air and the f-air spike near the ledge. Granted, the aerial KO moves and SJP are situational KO moves as they only KO near the ceiling. However, even if you are on a flat stage like FD, Mario still has many tools he can use to finish the job.

Concerning weaknesses, one of Mario’s only weaknesses is his attack range. He seems to have tough matchups against characters with great sword size, like Corrin and Marth. However, Mario can still adapt in this situation due to his solid frame data and neutral game. I was watching the grand finals of Genesis 4, and even though Marth is one of the matchups that Mario loses, Ally was able to win 2 games against MKLeo, who happens to be the best Marth main in the world. Ally still lost 3-2, but it shows that even during an uphill battle, Mario can seriously put up an amazing fight, and even still have a good chance of winning. I think the Mario-Marth MU would be seen as significantly harder if a less experienced Mario main like ANTi or Zenyou was playing Leo in GF. However, Ally proved that when two players of nearly equal skill compete with each other, within the context of the Mario-Marth MU, Ally proved that Mario can still definitely win the MU, even if it is an uphill battle. To finish this point, even with Mario’s biggest weakness, it is clear to me that Mario can adapt, especially when your name is Ally.

Overall, Mario is certainly able to adapt in such an adaptation-heavy meta that is Smash 4. Now that I have explained why adaptation is so crucial in Smash 4, along with benefiting Mario, the second major point I would like to make is how his matchups work, along with his overall usage in tournament.

With matchups, there is only one MU in which Mario mains that I know (through discord) commonly agree that Mario definitely loses by a significant margin, and that MU is Sonic. From the little I know about the character, optimal Sonic play normally revolves around the Sonic main camping out Mario, since that is what Sonic does best. Since Mario’s speed is much lower than Sonic’s, it gets pretty hard to catch the blue blur. Even so, this is far from an unwinnable matchup. Even before Ally became super dominant in the scene, he was able to take sets off the best Sonic main in the early meta; 6WX (the best Sonic now is possibly Komorikiri or KEN). Every other MU is either a slight loss but still winnable, even, or winning for Mario. Mario is notable for being a counterpick to Diddy (who is considered to be the number 2 best character in the game on the official tier list), as Ally has become known as the “demon of ZeRo” within the 1.1.6 patch meta, coined by commentator D1 at Genesis 4. Ever since Get on my Level 2016, Ally has been able to win most of the sets he plays against ZeRo. He goes even with many of the top tiers, including the infamous witch Bayonetta, and even has an ok matchup with Cloud, despite Cloud’s sword range. This is due to Mario having amazing combo ability and edge guarding ability, which directly attacks Cloud’s two glaring weaknesses of being a big target and having a terrible recovery. Mario’s ability to take on Cloud at an even level has been proven by Ally being able to counter his old Brawl doubles partner, Mew2King. Ally’s record against M2K is at least 2-1 in sets, in Ally’s favor.

Aside from having amazing matchups across the board, Mario is also an excellent character to counterpick as. This sub-point loops back around to how Smash 4 is very much about adapting, even more-so than the past Smash games due to solid game balance. Since Mario is extremely malleable and well-rounded, he is a great character to counterpick as. He may not be as popular as Cloud is concerning counterpicks, but I find Mario to be a better pick across the board for tough matchups due to how Mario is much better balanced, while Cloud’s weaknesses are easier to exploit. Mario has some counterpick representation as well, with NAKAT picking up Mario (alongside Lucina) as counterpick characters in order to complement Fox and Ness. Mario is also regarded as an easy character to counter others in doubles matches, due to how he is malleable and can adapt to any team. Overall, his usage in tournaments is phenomenal, with top Mario mains consistently placing in the top 16 or better, being a great doubles partner, and having strong popularity and use in general.

The third major point I have as to why I believe Mario is a contender top 5 is the amount of nationals that he and his users have won during the 1.1.6 patch life. On May 17th, the 1.1.6 meta was born. Here are the list of nationals that have occurred since that patch has dropped, along with the finalists and their mains in each (Note: the focus here is character mains, not alternate mains):

2016

· Get on my Level:

o Winner: Ally (Mario)

o Runner-up: ZeRo (Diddy)

· MomoCon

o Winner: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)

o Runner-up: Ally (Mario, Cloud/Marth alternates)

· 2GGT Mexico Saga

o Winner: Larry Lurr (Fox, DK/Mario alternates)

o Runner-up: ZeRo (Diddy Kong, Cloud alternate)

· KTAR XVIII

o Winner: Nairo (ZSS, Cloud alt)

o Runner-up: Dabuz (Rosalina)

· Smash n’ Splash 2

o Winner: Ally (Mario)

o 2nd: ZeRo (Diddy, Cloud alt)

· Apex 2016

o Winner: Dabuz (Rosalina)

o 2nd: VoiD (Sheik, Fox alt)

· Low Tier City 4

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Nairo (ZSS)

· CEO 2016

o Winner: ANTi (Mario, Cloud/ZSS/MK alt)

o 2nd: Zinoto (Diddy)

· WTFox 2

o Winner: Dabuz (Rosalina, Olimar alt)

o 2nd: Mr. R (Sheik)

· EVO 2016 (Biggest Smash 4 tournament ever)

o Winner: Ally (Mario)

o 2nd: Kamemushi (Megaman)

· 2GGT KTAR Saga

o Winner: Pink Fresh (Bayonetta)

o 2nd: Marss (ZSS)

· Smash Factor 5

o Winner: MKLeo (Meta Knight, Marth/Cloud alt)

o 2nd: Mr. R (Sheik)

· Clutch City Clash

o Winner: Abadango (Mewtwo, MK/Pacman alt)

o 2nd: Samsora (Peach)

§ Honorable Mention: Ally (Mario); 3rd Place

· Smash Con 2016

o Winner: Nairo (ZSS)

o 2nd: Dabuz (Rosa, Olimar alt)

· Umebura SAT

o Winner: KEN (Sonic)

o 2nd: Dabuz (Rosa, Olimar alt)

· Shine 2016

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: ESAM (Pikachu)

§ Honorable Mention: Dath (Robin); 3rd Place

· Syndicate 2016

o Winner: Mr. R (Sheik, Bayo alt)

o 2nd: Rich Brown (Mewtwo)

· 2GGT Abadango saga

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Larry Lurr (Fox)

· Big House 6

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: ANTI (Mario, ZSS/Cloud alt)

· KTAR XIX

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Salem (Bayo)

· Smashdown World

o Winner: Komorikiri (Cloud/Sonic)

o 2nd: ANTi (Mario, Cloud/ZSS alt)

· UGC Smash Open

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Abadango (Mewtwo)

· 2GGT ZeRo Saga

o Winner: MKLeo (Marth, Cloud alt)

o 2nd: Larry Lurr (Fox)

2017

· Umebura X Single Chu

o Winner: KEN (Sonic)

o 2nd: 9B (Bayo)

· 2GGC Genesis Saga

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy, Sheik alt)

o 2nd: Komorikiri (Cloud/Sonic)

· Genesis 4

o Winner: MKLeo (Marth, Cloud alt)

o 2nd: Ally (Mario)

· Umebura Tokaigi

o Winner: Nairo (ZSS, Cloud alt)

o 2nd: KEN (Sonic)

· 2GGC West

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Tweek (Cloud)

· Nikoniko Tokaigi

o Winner: Nairo (ZSS)

o 2nd: KEN (Sonic)

· Beast 7

o Winner: Mr. R (Sheik, Cloud alt)

o 2nd: cyve (Diddy, Bayo alt)

· Frostbite

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Tsu (Lucario, Ryu alt)

· PAX East 2017

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Dabuz (Rosalina)

· Frame Perfect Series 2

o Winner: Kirahira (Rosalina)

o 2nd: ZeRo (Diddy)

· 2GGC Civil War

o Winner: Dabuz (Rosalina)

o 2nd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)

§ Honorable Mention: T (Link); 3rd Place

· KTAR XX

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Tweek (Cloud)

· Midwest Mayhem 8

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Zinoto (Diddy)

§ Honorable Mention: Ally (Mario); 3rd Place

· CEO Dreamland

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy)

o 2nd: Mr. R (Sheik, Cloud alt)

§ Honorable Mention: ESAM (Pikachu, Samus alt); 5th Place

· Dreamhack Austin

o Winner: ZeRo (Diddy, Lucina alt)

o 2nd: MKLeo (Marth, Cloud and Lucario alt)

§ Honorable Mention: Ally (Mario); 3rd Place

· Umebura Japan National

o Winner: MKLeo (Meta Knight, Cloud)

o 2nd: KEN (Sonic)

This means Mario mains have placed in the Grand Finals in top nationals 8 times since 1.1.6 was dropped, with Mario mains winning 4 of those 8. With the other meta central characters, here’s the number of times they have been the main (NOT an alternate. We are not counting those here) of a user in GF:

Mario: 8

Diddy: 21

Sheik: 6

Rosa: 8

Fox: 3

Bayo: 3

Cloud: 3.5 (.5 is used for points, since Komo uses Cloud and Sonic evenly. Gotta divide the wealth and credit)

ZSS: 6

Mewtwo: 3

Marth: 3

Sonic: 6 (would be higher, but see Komo point in Cloud section)

Megaman: 1

Meta Knight: 1.5

Peach: 1

Pikachu: 1

Lucario: 1

Captain Falcon: 1


Diddy > Mario/Rosa > Sonic > ZSS/Sheik/Marth > Cloud > Fox/Bayo > Megaman/MK/Peach/Pika/Lucario/Falcon

When looking at this, only Diddy Kong beats Mario in times that a character has appeared in Grand Finals of a national as a main character, rather than an alternate character, and one of the reasons for this is because of how consistent ZeRo is as a player. This not only shows that Mario is definitely a character who is viable for national wins, but compared to the other characters, Mario stands out above almost all the rest with appearances in Grand Finals as a main character.

With all that has happened in this meta’s life, I certainly agree that Mario is worthy of being placed within the top 5 of Smash 4’s roster. He is the poster child of adaptability in this game, his stats are very well-balanced and threatening, his matchup spread is overall strong, his popularity in tournaments is very high within both the singles and doubles circuit, and his appearances in Grand Finals so many times during 1.1.6, I do think that Mario deserves to be in the top 5 of the roster for Super Smash Bros. 4, or at the very least contend for a spot in the top 5. Not only is he good on his own, but he proves himself as being set apart from many of the other top tiers as well.

Sources:

· National tournament streams (Twitch and Youtube)

· Smashboards Tournament Rankings system and project

· The Smash 4 Mario official discord channel

· SSBwiki

Note: For now, this essay is easily be just a first draft. As I learn more about Mario and change my opinions, I will revise this essay.

I hope you enjoyed reading. I did my best to share my thoughts :)
If I missed anything, please let me know!
 
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