So.....what about the [Spoiler] being legal?

[Bernlord]

SPOILERS AHEAD: Watch the Smash Direct before proceeding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-kQWJrjRV4&t=243s

So, as some of you may or may not have seen in the direct (I was so hyped, I didn't heard that part first time watching it lol) a new system on the Final Smashes has been implemented to the game which works a lot like Street Fighter IV's Ultra Combo system and makes Final Smashes attainable without Smash Balls, but, are way less powerful than ''real'' final smashes. This whole mechanic reminds me also of Little Mac's K.O Metter and Cloud's Limit Break, but not as powerful.

You probably know what I want to talk about by mentioning that, should it be tournament legal? I mean, other fighting games have this mechanic and are tournament legal. Why shouldn't they be legal considering these final smashes are less powerful than some characters unique attacks (Cloud and Little Mac) and seems like they could add some ''spice'' to tournaments, we already got parries, more intense blows in 1v1 and we got metter now. What do you guys think?

Also, made this for fun: https://imgur.com/a/lCN6FuW

 

[Bernlord]

Oh, and also, https://youtu.be/P-kQWJrjRV4?t=16m42s look how far Wii-Fit Trainer goes at 73% here, some smash attacks are stronger than that.

 

[staindgrey]

It very well could be, but the Smash community seems very resistant to change. We'd have to decide as an overall community to pick one or the other, or risk fractioning tournaments.

The argument against its inclusion is that not all FSes are good for one on one. A terrible FS could doom an otherwise decent character to never being played.

 

[Bernlord]

''The argument against its inclusion is that not all FSes are good for one on one. A terrible FS could doom an otherwise decent character to never being played. ''

Isn't that what other fighting games checks to see if a character is good?

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

Some characters have better Final Smash than others, so I don't think that it should be legal. Though, I'm not a tournament player and I guess that it would be more entertaining when watching tournament. Objectively I'd say "no" but subjectively it's a "yes" for me.

 

[staindgrey]

''The argument against its inclusion is that not all FSes are good for one on one. A terrible FS could doom an otherwise decent character to never being played. ''

Isn't that what other fighting games checks to see if a character is good?

It doesn't hold that big of a distinction because they're all largely the same in 1v1 fighters. Smash is the only fighter I know of that REALLY deviates what a super move does in function.

The games that I can think of that have dramatically different supers are tag team fighters like MvC and DB FighterZ. But since you're fighting with teams, one character's lackluster super can be negated by having other positive traits. If Smash has legal final smashes, a genuinely bad one for 1v1, like Bowser's or Peach's (unless hers is changed) would mean that the other character has an easy one-hit KO opportunity that they don't in every matchup. That hurts.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I REALLY hope they do. I would love to see Final Smashes in competitive play. And between this meter, and making all of the FSs into quick super moves, they're bending over backwards to make them appealing to competitive play.

 

[Necro'lic]

I voted yes, but there are many caveats that need to be followed. First off, the deal with FS moves being super varied can be remedied with having the ability to block some of them (preferably all), differing charge meter amounts, as well as general changes between the Smash Ball versions like less range, less area of effect, or less knockback.

Also, people comparing this as a KO Punch for every character should keep in mind that the reason KO Punch is so balanced as it is is despite its power is because it is on Little Mac, a character with a crippling weakness (seems to be less so in Ultimate), but more importantly, it can be hit out of him, promoting aggression as well as defensive measures, making it a mechanic that is fun to play with AND play against due to multiple ways to deal with it.

If FS meters were able to be drained when at full so they couldn't be used, then that would be the clincher for me at least to see them become fully legal, and I will fight tooth and nail to have it be done, but right now, I don't think that's the case, so they are still in the maybe category for me. Not a hard NO, but they need to be adjusted.

 

[DarthEnderX]

but more importantly, it can be hit out of him, promoting aggression as well as defensive measures, making it a mechanic that is fun to play with AND play against due to multiple ways to deal with it.

Do we know that getting hit doesn't drain the FS meter?

 

[Necro'lic]

I didn't see it happen in the direct. Might have to rewatch it, but I feel they should've brought that up anyway if it was included.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

While I understand there could be some balance issues to come from this, I totally believe it's worth investing at least a little time into. Maybe at the start of the meta game or for side events.

Dendri made a pretty damn good video on the subject:

He brought up a decent point in that final smashes with stronger kill power are usually harder and more committal to use then others that lack kill power but have more range and safety.

 

[infomon]

Some characters have better Final Smash than others

Some characters have better Smash attacks than others. In fact some characters are just better than others.

The dev team has probably tried to balance the characters around their final smashes this whole time, and we've been offsetting that by not using them.

Just food for thought! I think FS-meters are cool but I probably won't want them in competitive play personally. But I think we should def explore them on launch and see what it's like!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The final smashes are supposedly weaker versions but we still see Marth's is a OHKO on Lucas at 20% center stage so they still seem busted unless we're willing to bump the game up to a five stock meta. What bothers me about the footage we've seen is that you appear to gain just as much meter from taking damage as dealing damage. So if Marth earns a Final Smash from taking 100% damage, then gets the one hit kill without touching the opponent first to rack up damage, did he really exhibit some level of skill? Also the meter you earn from being killed by a final smash is retained after losing your stock, that's about half a meter at 0%, and again go to that Lucas example to watch him have half his meter ready at 11% damage.

What does intrigue me about this setting is I assume you can't randomly lose your Final Smash from taking damage- which is the case with smash balls. And all final smashes are invulnerable on frame 1. We live in a meta that has probably never discovered how easy and potentially fun it would be to combo or trap your opponent into a final smash. It's just the strength of final smashes that bugs me. Mario is not a good example since Mario has always had overwhelmingly one of the worst final smashes in the series since it's slow, predictable, and easy to mash out of.

So my answer is no. I am definitely curious to test how much it takes to earn a final smash when the game releases however. There's just so many questions, can you lose meter or your final smash if you sit on it too long? Do you lose a final smash when you lose a stock? Exactly how much weaker are the final smashes? If I can live to a hundred percent,how many final smashes am I guaranteed for every stock? I'm sure they will balance the system better than what we see in the footage, but with what little we've seen, I'd be genuinely shocked if these details end up complementing the way we play smash competitively.

 

[Zawaz132]

The final smashes are supposedly weaker versions but we still see Marth's is a OHKO on Lucas at 20% center stage so they still seem busted unless we're willing to bump the game up to a five stock meta. What bothers me about the footage we've seen is that you appear to gain just as much meter from taking damage as dealing damage. So if Marth earns a Final Smash from taking 100% damage, then gets the one hit kill without touching the opponent first to rack up damage, did he really exhibit some level of skill? Also the meter you earn from being killed by a final smash is retained after losing your stock, that's about half a meter at 0%, and again go to that Lucas example to watch him have half his meter ready at 11% damage.

What does intrigue me about this setting is I assume you can't randomly lose your Final Smash from taking damage- which is the case with smash balls. And all final smashes are invulnerable on frame 1. We live in a meta that has probably never discovered how easy and potentially fun it would be to combo or trap your opponent into a final smash. It's just the strength of final smashes that bugs me. Mario is not a good example since Mario has always had overwhelmingly one of the worst final smashes in the series since it's slow, predictable, and easy to mash out of.

So my answer is no. I am definitely curious to test how much it takes to earn a final smash when the game releases however. There's just so many questions, can you lose meter or your final smash if you sit on it too long? Do you lose a final smash when you lose a stock? Exactly how much weaker are the final smashes? If I can live to a hundred percent, am I guaranteed a final smash for every stock? I'm sure they will balance the system better than what we see in the footage, but with what little we've seen, I'd be genuinely shocked if these details end up complementing the way we play smash competitively.

I don't think Final Smash charge is going to be the same for damage dealt and received.
Think about it, it just wouldn't make sense.
On 1v1s, both characters would always charge at the same rate unless damage dealt and received were different.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

Also, people comparing this as a KO Punch for every character should keep in mind that the reason KO Punch is so balanced as it is is despite its power is because it is on Little Mac, a character with a crippling weakness (seems to be less so in Ultimate), but more importantly, it can be hit out of him, promoting aggression as well as defensive measures, making it a mechanic that is fun to play with AND play against due to multiple ways to deal with it.

If Final Smashes are lost when full meter upon KO, then it could provide a similar risk. You now have full meter, but your opponent knows this, so you run the risk of being combo-ed and KO'd to prevent you from using it, especially at high percents.

 

[Neoxon]

I'd be perfectly fine with FS Meter being legal under a couple of conditions.

• Allow us to map a separate FS button so our B specials won't be locked out once we max out our meter.
• Nerf Final Smashes a bit more before the final release to be safe.
• Gaining meter from taking damage is fine, but the meter gain for that should be significantly less compared to dealing damage. Basically treat it like Street Fighter's super meter.

With that said, I could see this bumping us up to 4 stocks rather than 3 if FS Meter ends up being legal.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://smashboards.com/threads/final-smash-meter-will-it-be-tourney-legal.457111/ There's a thread on it, and it did pop up before. I'm not closing this one just yet, though. You have a good poll and I don't want to ruin that. I think merging 'em is a good idea, with your thread as the base. You'll have to give me time to make sure it works right.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

Some characters have better Smash attacks than others. In fact some characters are just better than others.

The dev team has probably tried to balance the characters around their final smashes this whole time, and we've been offsetting that by not using them.

Just food for thought! I think FS-meters are cool but I probably won't want them in competitive play personally. But I think we should def explore them on launch and see what it's like!

There's more power gap between Final Smashes than regular Smashes.

 

[Bernlord]

https://smashboards.com/threads/final-smash-meter-will-it-be-tourney-legal.457111/ There's a thread on it, and it did pop up before. I'm not closing this one just yet, though. You have a good poll and I don't want to ruin that. I think merging 'em is a good idea, with your thread as the base. You'll have to give me time to make sure it works right.

Merging em could be a great idea.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Merging em could be a great idea.

It would lose the poll, thinking about it. Is that an issue? Obviously a new poll can be put up.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Final Smash meter would be terrible. I'm keeping that feature turned off. I am glad Samus's Final Smash doesn't make her change between her Power Suit and Zero Suit, but I would prefer to grab the Smash Ball to use the Final Smash instead of having a meter fill up while I use a neutral Special and perform a Final Smash by accident.