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So how about that Snake guide?

moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
I was wondering if anyone would be willing to collaborate on a Snake guide. We have plenty of Snake mains here to get together and make something work. I'd contribute as much as I could, in the very least getting everything organized. If someone is currently working on one, please keep everyone posted on it. It would be nice to have an extensive AT reference, MU knowledge, etc.

EDIT: If anyone would like to contribute, an outline on Google Docs will be going up soon, so please PM me your e-mail address and we can get something started! If you would rather not get involved directly, you can also either PM me or post in this thread with your contribution. Everyone will be accredited for what they've contributed, don't worry.
 
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FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
I wanted to make one over winter break but then life stuff happened and now college is bodying my free time. I can't commit to much, but I might be able to contribute.
 

moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
I shall assemble what tech I've seen out there and post a Google doc link for easy editing. Will post an update later this week.
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
The Google docs format sounds great (given that it's not a hard commitment); no idea how this is going to work though. Is this just a compilation of advanced tech and strategies, or will it have other sections? (I was hesitant to start on a Snake guide mainly because I didn't know what to put in it)
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Basic Character Guide Features I've noticed (having read a bunch when I was trying to pick my Melee main) bulleted with elements I find most important in developing a metagame:

Like I said, this is all stuff we (mostly BND, FlaFi, and I) already discussed to some extent. I actually started making this on my own with that moveset analysis thread, but I kept losing my posts because I suck. Also, only BND really contributed. I've consciously worked on this for a while, lol. Especially with the combo trees and KO %s (which again nobody's tried to help with) which is why I find this thread kind of silly. The others that have displayed interest are relatively new to these forums, so maybe y'all haven't read the threads. This is me telling you to read the threads, especially if the above outline piques your interest.
 
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moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
I find this thread kind of silly.
I just want to make a concise guide instead of having to rummage through old threads forever; it's an attempt at maintaining people's interest in the character, growing the community a little bit more by getting people involved, and enlightening everyone to the manliness of Snake. I'm also not claiming to be the sole creator of this guide, nor should I, or anyone else for that matter, be attributed with the idea of developing a Snake guide, because it's obviously been talked about extensively in the past by a bunch of different people, it's just that no one has been willing/able to do it.

If you want to get involved, just let me know. If not, and you posted something somewhere else that you think would be a good contribution, link it here (if available), and I'll put it in the guide.
 

moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
The Google docs format sounds great (given that it's not a hard commitment); no idea how this is going to work though. Is this just a compilation of advanced tech and strategies, or will it have other sections? (I was hesitant to start on a Snake guide mainly because I didn't know what to put in it)
This will be as comprehensive as we can make it, so basic attack information/data, AT, MU knowledge, general strategies, footage, the official Professor Pro dance, etc. We should push this thing as far as we can. I pretty much want to obtain and contain all Snake stuff in one concise place.
 

FlashingFire

Smash Journeyman
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
455
Location
Oklahoma
inb4 Professor Pro releases a Snake guide right as you're about to compile everything

...seriously though, what you're proposing sounds hard. Not just because relevant information is scattered in tons of threads, but also because it's very difficult for people to coordinate on something as coherent and exhaustive as a character guide. It will be tough to maintain steam on this for an extended amount of time. I know I talked about making a Snake guide months ago and I'm no farther along now than I was back then.

EDIT: I don't want to discourage you, but if you really are committed to this I want you to be aware of the challenges you might face.
 
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moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
inb4 Professor Pro releases a Snake guide right as you're about to compile everything

...seriously though, what you're proposing sounds hard. Not just because relevant information is scattered in tons of threads, but also because it's very difficult for people to coordinate on something as coherent and exhaustive as a character guide. It will be tough to maintain steam on this for an extended amount of time. I know I talked about making a Snake guide months ago and I'm no farther along now than I was back then.

EDIT: I don't want to discourage you, but if you really are committed to this I want you to be aware of the challenges you might face.
Lol, I hope he does. For real, I'm not worried about how long it takes, since doing it slowly is better than not doing it at all. It is daunting, and I might end up not compiling as much as I'd like, but it will be a living project, fit to change. Anything anyone wants to contribute would be great! More to come soon.
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
You literally took a single sentence from my post and ignored the rest LOL It was actually just a clause of an actual sentence. If you want this to work, maybe actually read. V disrespectful. Here's the tl;dr:

I literally have the most extensive components of a character guide of anyone in these forums. If you want a guide, you should be helping me collect data. So far as I'm concerned, you've done jack.
 
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moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
You literally took a single sentence from my post and ignored the rest LOL It was actually just a clause of an actual sentence. If you want this to work, maybe actually read. V disrespectful. Here's the tl;dr:

I literally have the most extensive components of a character guide of anyone in these forums. If you want a guide, you should be helping me collect data. So far as I'm concerned, you've done jack.
The point is: this ain't a pissing contest. I am creating an outline based on other guides. If you wish to contribute, you can.
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Regardless of who’s done what (I personally have a small repository of random tech ideas and Snake hitbox mechanics (a lot of which has been shared) that I’m not posting until I confirm most to all of the details and get most of the utilization and muscle memory down), it feels like an indexing of sorts would be nice. Not a big fan of getting confrontational, especially if something productive’s trying to be done.

Like FlashingFire, I’m mainly concerned about the scope of the project; a Roy guide like Sethlon’s, while a lot of work, seems entirely possible (and was possible) since Roy’s mostly about fundamentals with few gimmicks, and Roy’s a semi-clone of Marth regardless so that a general gameplan could be assumed. Snake’s an entirely new character; there are also a few too many gimmicks to write down, playstyles to utilize (For example, “IGTed grenades or DACUSes?” “Down air into what?” “Professor Pro-esque aggressive dash dancing or jumping in with a half-cooked grenade?“ etc.), and mechanics to detail.

An indexing seems perfectly valid, though, since it encourages modularity, which could work well given that Snake may get nerfed (or buffed, though that seems less likely) again. It also has some advantages in terms of formatting: Snake grenade mechanics wouldn’t fit well in a spreadsheet. Similarly, KO percentages are best done in a spreadsheet and have no place in a wall of text. Heck, if we were to do a massive guide we’d need an indexing anyways.

In any case, in some sense cisyphus is right: there’s a lot of knowledge on the boards, and going through those posts and archiving the most important ones might be a better idea than making a Snake guide right off the bat. Unless sharing Snake tech is a bad idea (since not knowing the matchup hurts more than in most other cases), though, some guide should be made. After all of the relevant information’s been compiled (and PMDT’s done nerfing/buffing), making a guide should be plausible, if we could somehow weave everything together.
 

moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
Ok so in the very least, a guide/index could be made that doesn't need to introduce the reader to fundamentals and assumes you know what Snake's attacks do at a basic level. Perhaps then, just a guide/index of AT, framedata, MUs and strategies would be best. That's pretty much what I meant to begin with. Less of a "THIS IS HOW YOU MUST PLAY SNAKE"-type guide.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Then I fail to see why you need any help. Scrolling through the forums and compiling info is a job one person can complete in an hour or two tops. And again, that's exactly what my third post outlined. Cool dude. The problem is that our forums don't possess even half of the necessary material, so someone needs to be working on the substantial aspects, and not just arrange them prettily.

Maybe it's not clear that I'm demonstrating that I've attempted this exact same idea and requested help for it and received nothing. Maybe it's not clear that my efforts are far greater than yours, and I feel like you have no warrant for dictating what others need to do when you yourself have not done anything besides telling others what needs to be done.

Call it confrontational, but I'll call it an attempt to get real work done.
 
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M00SE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
13
Location
Pensacola, FL
NNID
Orleanyte
Damn, Cisyphus, i see this decent down throw thread, and then you derail legit efforts to get a guide collaborated....wtf brah?

This kind of stuff is not tit for tat on who's got the most Snake techs bookmarked. Don't assume that everyone hasn't put in work just as you have. Knowledge shouldn't be entitled. That d-throw thread is a legit step in the direction of a great guide. With inputs from others on frames and tech and blah blah..... we could make a Snake bible. Just saying...
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Hrrm; I wouldn't quite call it derailing, though I didn't like the approach used. Basically the premise is that an actual Snake guide can't exist feasibly at the moment since Snake's not a very linear character compared to other characters like Roy. There are many Snake metas, and it doesn't feel right to officially sanction one and stuff the gameplay styles of everyone else, as much as I'd like others to play more like myself. Making one guide for each meta is too hard and would cause unnecessary overlap. With that being said, the best we can do at the moment is modularize and give everyone the tools to develop/choose their own playstyle, for example, by making a movelist guide (http://smashboards.com/threads/in-depth-movepool-analysis.384346/) or discussing properties of certain good moves (http://smashboards.com/threads/easy-combos.361878/#post-18178018).

Unfortunately, for people who don't navigate the Snake boards frequently/don't have the motivation to, these things can be difficult to find, which is presumably why we don't have many Snakes who know what they're doing [anymore. A lot of the 3.0 meta's been invalidated, actually. To cite some examples: from debug mode we now know that dair 3-hit on a grounded opponent combos into any moderately fast move, including itself, meaning that getting the 4th hit in actually limits your options. On the other hand, back in 3.0, the last hit of down air, airborne or not, was the most valuable; I think discussion about it was in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guSqJ-G3lo8. Back in 3.0 IIRC lots of people also dismissed down-air as an ok-ish move; even though it was nerfed, it's now considered one of Snake's staple combo tools in 3.5. Snake gameplay was also highly cypher-centric back then; I decided not to (read: couldn't) get into that habit, which is fortunate, though I still see people cypher as a defensive tool despite the fact that Snake arguably has better options in several situations now]. If we can get all of the information compiled into a single place for easy reference and have some sort of overseer to do this, that would be great for Snakes in general. More Snakes (hopefully) means more meta, so Snake would develop faster as a character too.

Compiling all of the information is tedious, though, and for the people who know the current general meta (note the word general here: there's no unified meta and everyone has different playstyles, but, for example, I know Cisyphus/Prof's general gameplan despite the fact that I'm not a fan of certain parts of either myself) well enough it's completely unnecessary. It follows that there's a free rider problem of sorts: people decently ahead in terms of meta have no reason to compile the meta into a unified guide since they have their own beliefs on how to play Snake but would like the benefits of having more Snake players to contribute, while people who don't know how to play Snake already have their hands full trying to understand Snake in the first place.

Usually the solution to a free rider problem is to "subsidize" it, which I believe is being done for some interpretation of subsidize. Compiling character information is tedious and takes several hours, and personally I only do it on a need-to-know basis, but Cisyphus has made several charts about kill percents, opposing character properties, and as you mentioned, dthrows. Similarly, if someone pokes hard enough at a topic (like ftilt in the aforementioned link), I usually give most of my relevant info on the matter before they figure out everything on their own to save them time, since they've already put in the effort, and if I find anything definitely useful but completely underrated I usually post it after figuring out how it works decently well (E.G. IGTing and the Sheik matchup before I ended up removing it due to concerns of potential nerfs and degenerate gameplay; hopefully nobody brings up the latter again).

Maybe subsidizing was a bad word. Probably info socialism or something like that, though I still prefer the concept of compensation of people for their efforts.

In any case, everyone who's contributing here's putting out what they're best suited for. For example, my memory's terrible and would have limited use for a whole chart on kill percents, and my own morals back from when I was a scrub still hold so I dislike chaingrabbing people with dthrows. Instead I prefer to focus more on abusing properties of certain moves to figure out what to do in-game, while cisyphus might have different priorities and still hasn't integrated IGTing into his gameplay. Of particular note, neither of us have any direct use for making a forum compilation guide at the moment: I'm sure that if the forum were already littered with bits of info when we came in, one of us would be motivated to do it, but at the moment, our time would probably be better spent elsewhere.

Long story short and to put it bluntly/rudely, the moral of the story was probably "Get busy or get out".
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
See my beef literally just the last sentence that BND had: Get busy or get out. This dude trying to get this going was contributing nothing to its completion, and he's still done nothing to contribute. So I was right. I'm going to keep doing what I do and not have to have some dude taking credit for it or telling me what to study or telling me where to post what. I put more legwork into this character than most PM players ever do. I think it's because I do so much for this character that I can speak freely and loosely about these subjects.

Take a second look at my KO% guide thread. I ask multiple times for help developing it. PM Players aren't ones to observe frame data in as fine a detail as I've been doing. That's just how the game is right now. People are exploring in different ways than that and if that works for them, that's fine. That said, I come a from Melee Sheik background where my entire gameplan is boiled down to a few key concepts tweaked slightly to exploit certain characters' weaknesses. I need set in stone ideas to be rooted in instead of just cheesing out hoping something works. Even my Samus, who's way more freeform and imaginative than my Sheik, has a basic ideal situation going on that I work to achieve. Snake's the same way.

And BND, I actually do look forward to your in depth move analysis, 'cause they're all tremendously helpful for sparking new ideas for me. I think Snake's throws are absolutely amazing and all 100% good, so I focus a lot on starting a combo with throws, but other aspects of my gameplay lack because of it, until you reveal something I hadn't considered before. That's again my Sheik background coming into play, and Samus does it too via my defensive options. It's a good mix and I think you'd get some benefit out of my charts regardless. I certainly don't memorize my charts either, but if I'm really unsure of a character's combo weight, I'll pull up the charts on my phone quick and see who's most similar based on horizontal and vertical KO moves or based on the UThrow combo guide. Making the charts also familiarizes me with these differences since some results truly surprise me (like Wario surviving horizontal KO moves about as well as Snake does on PS2!) and stick in my mind because of their offbeat qualities.

tl;dr I value hardwork and will ****talk lazy people who don't want to pull their weight.

Also depending on the percent, 4th hit down air is still super good ;) free grabs 4 days
 
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moonfolk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
85
Honestly, a big reason I switched characters was because of all the senseless pride and negativity I got from the other Snakes out there. Wario was my secondary so I switched priorities, but really though, if I would have received encouragement instead of discouragement, I likely would have proceeded with the project; it very quickly became something I didn't want to do anymore. I now secondary Snake for matchups I hate, and still like the character, I just wish in general that people weren't so cocky when it comes to games. It happens in a lot of places, all the time, and it's just stupid. I can't know if someone is 12 or 30 because it's the internet, but a lot of people act like they're 12 because, well, they need to fight for popularity or something blah blah and/or have nothing better to do blah blah blah.

Bottom line, people suck, w/e, I'm doing what's making me happier now.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
No need to ask permission to start a guide :) Someone who so easily switches away from Snake wouldn't have made a complete guide anyway.

I have a half-finished KO % guide (+Grenade SD%s on common legal stages), a complete down throw techchase guide, and a mostly complete u-throw combo guide for all those interested. I also have compiled data on sleep and duck animations vs. JC grab and various data on platforms. You can find the shorthand version here
 
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yink059

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
48
Location
Santa Barbara
Honestly, a big reason I switched characters was because of all the senseless pride and negativity I got from the other Snakes out there. Wario was my secondary so I switched priorities, but really though, if I would have received encouragement instead of discouragement, I likely would have proceeded with the project; it very quickly became something I didn't want to do anymore. I now secondary Snake for matchups I hate, and still like the character, I just wish in general that people weren't so cocky when it comes to games. It happens in a lot of places, all the time, and it's just stupid. I can't know if someone is 12 or 30 because it's the internet, but a lot of people act like they're 12 because, well, they need to fight for popularity or something blah blah and/or have nothing better to do blah blah blah.

Bottom line, people suck, w/e, I'm doing what's making me happier now.
i generally find the snake forum to be not nearly as toxic (not really at all) as some of the other ones, specifically ones like the squirtle forum (I've heard stories from my friend out of there). I probably havent been on here for that long but from what I've seen this board has been helpful and respectful.
 
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