Snake MU Thread

DavemanCozy

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Ness' neutral is hardly bad, as already pointed out.

Ness wins for more than just PSI magnet. It's PK Thunder and Yoyo abusing Snake's biggest issues (landing and disadvantage at ledge), it's Ness having answers to normally oppressive projectiles (in this case, PSI magnet is part of the equation), it's also the fact they can challenge Snake offstage and destroy his cypher with relative ease.

I do agree on the adaption point though. It's just like, say Fox vs Mega Man. It's too easy to say "Fox wins cuz of reflect lulz" and at top level that isn't true either. There's ways to bait out the reflector, just like there's ways to bait out PSI magnet. But just as Ness wins the Snake MU, Fox still wins the MM MU, just for more than just down special ;)

Personally I lean towards 55/45 in Ness's favor, that sounds about right to me.

After a couple months, I still really think that Pokemon Trainer is Snake's worst matchup. Not that it's unwinnable, just the worst for sure.
 
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MG_3989

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Ness' neutral is hardly bad, as already pointed out.

Ness wins for more than just PSI magnet. It's PK Thunder and Yoyo abusing Snake's biggest issues (landing and disadvantage at ledge), it's Ness having answers to normally oppressive projectiles (in this case, PSI magnet is part of the equation), it's also the fact they can challenge Snake offstage and destroy his cypher with relative ease.

I do agree on the adaption point though. It's just like, say Fox vs Mega Man. It's too easy to say "Fox wins cuz of reflect lulz" and at top level that isn't true either. There's ways to bait out the reflector, just like there's ways to bait out PSI magnet. But just as Ness wins the Snake MU, Fox still wins the MM MU, just for more than just down special ;)

Personally I lean towards 55/45 in Ness's favor, that sounds about right to me.

After a couple months, I still really think that Pokemon Trainer is Snake's worst matchup. Not that it's unwinnable, just the worst for sure.
Hit the nail on the head with the Ness MU. Snake has a terrible time landing against Ness and Ness can juggle him with both PKT and uair and even score sneaky kills off the top early. Ness does have a easy time edge guarding Snake and Snake wants to be on the ground almost 100% of the time against Ness. Magnet does play a role in the MU but Magnet is also punishable with Utilt and other moves and can become predictable. I do think Ness wins 55/45 in the MU but that's assuming the Ness plays paitent, Ness gets in trouble against Snake overextending, that's where Awestin lost to MVD. It's a volatile MU and I think low and mid level Snake mains will have much more problems dealing with Ness than top level players
 

DemySD

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Ness' neutral is hardly bad, as already pointed out.

Ness wins for more than just PSI magnet. It's PK Thunder and Yoyo abusing Snake's biggest issues (landing and disadvantage at ledge), it's Ness having answers to normally oppressive projectiles (in this case, PSI magnet is part of the equation), it's also the fact they can challenge Snake offstage and destroy his cypher with relative ease.

I do agree on the adaption point though. It's just like, say Fox vs Mega Man. It's too easy to say "Fox wins cuz of reflect lulz" and at top level that isn't true either. There's ways to bait out the reflector, just like there's ways to bait out PSI magnet. But just as Ness wins the Snake MU, Fox still wins the MM MU, just for more than just down special ;)

Personally I lean towards 55/45 in Ness's favor, that sounds about right to me.

After a couple months, I still really think that Pokemon Trainer is Snake's worst matchup. Not that it's unwinnable, just the worst for sure.
Uh, yeah. Can we discuss Pokemon Trainer? This dude is a problem. Squirtle pesters just enough for Ivysaur to kill at headslappingly low %s. Damn thing salivates as Snake clumsy ass floats in from above. I also struggle in the neutral against Ivysaur in general. Following in leaf with rangy vines always puts me on my heels.
 

DavemanCozy

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Uh, yeah. Can we discuss Pokemon Trainer? This dude is a problem. Squirtle pesters just enough for Ivysaur to kill at headslappingly low %s. Damn thing salivates as Snake clumsy *** floats in from above. I also struggle in the neutral against Ivysaur in general. Following in leaf with rangy vines always puts me on my heels.
Historically, bad MUs for Snake in Brawl were Meta Knight and Marth. Both sword characters that abused his disadvantage state. It makes sense why Ivysaur is such a problem too; she's got swordlike range with a big meaty hitbox.

Some notes I have on the matchup:
  • Regardless of starting Pokemon, on the start of the match place C4 in a spot where you don't want Ivysaur camping. Near an edge is generally a good idea. On BF and PS below one of the side platforms is a good place, on SV on the ground below an edge of the middle platform.
  • Squirtle's range is a big problem for him and a benefit to us. Spaced d-tilts, f-tilts and SH d-air can stop ground approaches when read correctly. Retreating SH F-air or N-air are good anti-air options against Squirtle.
  • Cooking grenade approaches is not a good idea against Ivysaur because of big hitboxes and razor leaf. Against Squirtle and Charizard they work better, but they can also use water gun or flamethrower respectively.
  • Ivysaur is very hard to approach, and very difficult to break through. Always be aware of her frame 4 d-tilt which can set up Vine Whip. Patience is key here, look for opportunities to jump over razor leaf or crawl under an aerial and use dash attack's burst speed to get close to her. SH -> air-dodge towards her ("triangle jump" as I've heard Ally call it) is risky, but can put you right on her face too.
  • Once close to Ivysaur, go for quick moves like jab or tilts; we have slightly faster moves but less range, so it's key to use these fast moves on her. Your goal here is to get her offstage, to start setting up some grenade traps for her to deal with when she's back.
  • Recovering low is bad most of the time because Ivysaur's D-air will at best destroy the Cypher, at worst spike you
  • Recovering high against Squirtle, however, is dangerous if he has water gun charged
  • Landing against Ivysaur is very difficult. Use wave-bounced C4's and remote missiles (curve the trajectory to go below you) to help and pray lol. B-air is a commitment for us, but it has a long lasting helpful hitbox for landing (despite the lag... hence why it's a commitment and why Snake sucks at landing).
  • Charizard, although he is the easiest one to deal with, still demands that we respect Flare Blitz. His aerials and tilts, his u-smash, pretty much almost all his moveset can kill. Usually most PTs will only switch to Zard to go for a cheese kill like U-throw to the top of the BF platform for e.g.
  • Something small but noteworthy is that PT change pokemon to get rid of a stuck C4; the sticky ends up falling off the pokemon, it doesn't come back on the switched pokemon.

It's hard to really cover all the specifics, but those are my notes on playing against PT. It's not an easy matchup but hopefully those general tips can help.

I'd say this matchup is 6/4 on PT's favor, mostly due to Ivysaur.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Somethin nasty one of the Bowsers in my area does is grab Snake holding grenade and d-throw, it explodes the grenade but Bowser is still in the throw animation so he gets no damage, and he can follow up with an aerial.

Just something to look out for ;)
 

MERPIS

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What makes the bowser matchup so bad for Snake? He's a big shouldn't he be creamed by the camping?
 

DavemanCozy

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What makes the bowser matchup so bad for Snake? He's a big shouldn't he be creamed by the camping?
I don't think it's bad myself. Some of the Snake players think it's even though, because of range. But I think Snake has the advantage because grenades outcamp him and he's easy to hit.
 
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