Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[ZADD]

As I feared, recoveries buffed and less gimps. Still the rest makes up for it, I do remember I enjoyed the speed boost of build 3 at least onstage. I'm gonna update the OP with slaj info and change the name to smooth gravity.

Well less gimps happen due to significantly injured recoveries, yes that's true. However, overall gimps seem the same as SLHG, recoveries are just as linear as they were with no side effects (SLHG Sonic). Gimps are just as doable, but not as easy....

Honestly, SLAJ just feels like SLHG if every character maintained their specials from Vanilla.
That's a perfect compromise, considering the largest complaint from 90% of the general community was altered Up-Bs.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Also, I'm going to be creating a new thread soon so changing your OP won't be that relevant.

 

[Muro]

when is that gonna happen?

 

[BlueFury]

Unfortunately you can't transfer from Wii U to Wii U, and custom character transfers are only one way. So you can't do 3DS to Wii U to another 3DS...you would need to transfer directly from the 3DS that was originally hacked, which in this case is your brother's friend's..

ah I see...d**n I'll try to find another way cause I would like to play you guys didn't really get the chance before the glitch patch happened.

 

[Leebee]

Aunt Jemima a page or so back you seemed to say that you can only use Method 3 if you've only got the digital 3DS Smash 4. am I understanding that right?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

yeahboi

other methods don't work because lol Nintendo

 

[Leebee]

yeahboi

other methods don't work because lol Nintendo

blahhhh nintendoooo @_@

okay I just have one other question; how do I use the Smash 3DS Editor on the system_data.bin? I'm not seeing anything in the .jar that's jumping out to me?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

open it with the editor, click equipment tab

 

[Meme Devourer]

Aunt Jemima a page or so back you seemed to say that you can only use Method 3 if you've only got the digital 3DS Smash 4. am I understanding that right?

Nah fam I did method 3 with physical smash 4

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Nah fam I did method 3 with physical smash 4

Method 3 works with physical and digital, but digital users are forced to use it because digital versions of Smash have an extra save data check.

 

[{C]rown]

Question, in SLAJ I was playing against blargh if I remembered his name correctly and I was playing Fox, before I go try I wanted to ask if Fox could possibly pull of Sakurai Combos in SLAJ, like using Fire Fox to do combos or using it to kill have any of you tried it before?

 

[blargh257]

Question, in SLAJ I was playing against blargh if I remembered his name correctly and I was playing Fox, before I go try I wanted to ask if Fox could possibly pull of Sakurai Combos in SLAJ, like using Fire Fox to do combos or using it to kill have any of you tried it before?

You did.
Rarely. They're not really practical in any sense, I think you basically have to end up right where the opponent recovers to get it.

 

[{C]rown]

You did.
Rarely. They're not really practical in any sense, I think you basically have to end up right where the opponent recovers to get it.

Yeah i figured that out but it was nice to know i mean if i even luckily come across my chance why not use it but thanks.

 

[Fundingle]

Can I make the suggestion that we call this simply "Smooth Smash"? Smooth Gravity sounds kind of strange.

 

[IndigoFeen]

Is there anyway to do this without a 3ds?

 

[FG Seize]

i am able to do everything perfectly but when i reboot and go into smash none of my characters have the build on their customs screen? can somebody help me please?

 

[blargh257]

i am able to do everything perfectly but when i reboot and go into smash none of my characters have the build on their customs screen? can somebody help me please?

Check to see you took the contents of the save folder out and put THEM into the save data backup, not the folder itself. This can cause the save to not be imported.

 

[{C]rown]

i am able to do everything perfectly but when i reboot and go into smash none of my characters have the build on their customs screen? can somebody help me please?

I don't know if this will help but I had that problem before but I just had to update the game and then they appeared but I'm sure yours is already up to date right?

 

[SAHunterMech]

Okay, so I totally goofed when I set up the SLAJ equipment for the first time. It's easily possible to get nice, clean numbers, such as

+0Atk/+0Def/+25Spd

Transferred onto a Wii U. Question is, should speed be 20 or 25? Or do we want to keep 22? I think 25 is preferable, just because of jump height, but that's just me. Speed can be anywhere between +29 and +18, in case you're wondering about the min/max.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Okay, so I totally goofed when I set up the SLAJ equipment for the first time. It's easily possible to get nice, clean numbers, such as

+0Atk/+0Def/+25Spd

Transferred onto a Wii U. Question is, should speed be 20 or 25? Or do we want to keep 22? I think 25 is preferable, just because of jump height, but that's just me. Speed can be anywhere between +29 and +18, in case you're wondering about the min/max.

Is this with Moon Launcher or without? Because after doing some testing moon launcher doesn't have as big an effect as killing vertically as we thought, and instead just makes vertical moves have insane percents. If we could remove moon launcher and instead just have a plain speed badge with balanced stats, I think that would be great.

And I think +25 would be cool, as +22 worked really well.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Is this with Moon Launcher or without? Because after doing some testing moon launcher doesn't have as big an effect as killing vertically as we thought, and instead just makes vertical moves have insane percents. If we could remove moon launcher and instead just have a plain speed badge with balanced stats, I think that would be great.

And I think +25 would be cool, as +22 worked really well.

hard breaker in moon launchers place?

 

[SAHunterMech]

I was testing with a Moon Launcher.

Hard Braker is... alright, nothing amazing. Certainly doesn't magically cause dash-dancing if that's what you were hoping for.

I was actually thinking a second smooth lander might be... interesting

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I was testing with a Moon Launcher.

Hard Braker is... alright, nothing amazing. Certainly doesn't magically cause dash-dancing if that's what you were hoping for.

I was actually thinking a second smooth lander might be... interesting

I think that would make certain moves broken so I'm gonna say no to that.

 

[SAHunterMech]

You know how it stacks, right? Smooth Lander, and all effects for that matter, are greatly diminished when stacked. It goes from a 0.7x reduction (with one) to 0.6x (two), and then 0.5x when all 3 slots are filled with smooth lander. I think it will be more of a small boost and less of a game-breaker.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

it'd also end up giving characters like sheik f6 aerials which are unheard of in smash, so... pls no

either hard braker or nothing, also +20 would probably be better because it's closer to 22

 

[BlueFury]

I was thinking hard breaker or glider but idk really unless your going to add more speed with sprinter lol...not much else ability wise to add to SLHG/SLAJ since the shielding been fixed pretty much. Unless your trying dodgy dodger or something.

 

[SAHunterMech]

it'd also end up giving characters like sheik f6 aerials which are unheard of in smash, so... pls no

either hard braker or nothing, also +20 would probably be better because it's closer to 22

You're fine with 7 frames, but upset by 6?

Also, even at 25, jump height is not that great; it takes until about +40 to get up to appropriate levels... I'd say higher speed is better.

Really, I'm surprised that we want to push the game so far in a direction that it wasn't designed for, but we're afraid to go even a tiny bit further. That is to say there are issues far bigger than 1 frame's difference of landing lag, but at the end of the day, it's about the fun and craziness, isn't it? We can't patch the game to fix crazy characters like sheik, so what's the point of getting riled up over her? She's going to be top tier, no matter what equipment you use.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

wat

One frame is a HUGE deal in competitive Smash, f6 aerials have never existed in any Smash game excluding N64 where everything was just cut out with Z-Cancelling. On the other hand, f7 aerials have existed before.

Also, the jump height is supposed to be "not that great", that's the point of SLAJ and SLHG. We don't want higher jumps, and at the same time we don't want them to be too low. If you rise them up to vanilla levels, short hops once again become huge commitments, thus degrading the neutral game.

SLAJ is supposed to make the game appealing competitively, which in turn makes it much more fun and crazy for players who enjoy it.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Can you explain to me why it's a huge deal? Comparing this to other smash games is kind of a moot point; every game in the series is drastically different from one another, and this is a special mode inside of a game that already doesn't follow a lot of the 'rules' laid down by previous titles.

Furthermore, keeping Sheik's aerials 1 frame higher isn't going to magically make her more balanced in any significant way. I think we need to be more open to changes if we want to truly optimize the gameplay here. Besides, think about the proportional decrease to landing lag; characters with more of it will get more of a bonus with 0.6x... the dissonance between the lowest and highest values of landing lag will be lessened.

Lastly, the phrase 'appealing competitively' is stepping on the toes of a lot of competitive Smash 4 and brawl players. I don't think we can say anything other than that we want a faster paced game.. it's not inherently more competitive, it's just different. I also don't think it's wise to get all high and mighty about that either. Let's focus on fun and functional first, and iron out any significant problems later... it's actually pretty difficult to make the game outright broken with equipment, believe me, I've tried.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

"for players who enjoy it."

I'm not saying Brawl nor Smash 4 is worse than SLAJ. I'm saying that the way SLAJ changes the game makes it more appealing to play competitively for those who enjoy it. Many complaints have been said about the pace of Smash 4; SLAJ fixes this. I'm not going to go into the debate of whether it's "more competitive", but if you need an answer look up anything regarding what makes a game competitive, for both spectators and players.

I personally don't believe another Smooth Lander badge should be used and will not support it. If the rest of the SLHG/SLAJ playerbase would like to add it, by all means. However, I'm not going to play a game where Sheik can f6 spam aerials. One frame is a lot more significant than you're making it out to be.

 

[blargh257]

I play Melee.
One frame here is the difference between a Fox dying from the Marth chaingrab and shining out into advantage. Please don't break Sheik.
Hard Braker seems alright. Like I said, I play Melee.
Maybe 20 spd.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I really do think we hit a magic number with 22 though. To avoid discussion keeping the speed at +22 seems like a good choice imo. And I guess I'll take hard breaker over nothing. That way we get slightly faster options out of running I guess.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I really do think we hit a magic number with 22 though. To avoid discussion keeping the speed at +22 seems like a good choice imo. And I guess I'll take hard breaker over nothing. That way we get slightly faster options out of running I guess.

22 is just the number I settled on initially because I made the SLAJ setup in a rush. You're telling me you'd rather just leave it than test other speed values? What's so bad about going higher?

"for players who enjoy it."
I'm not saying Brawl nor Smash 4 is worse than SLAJ. I'm saying that the way SLAJ changes the game makes it more appealing to play competitively for those who enjoy it. Many complaints have been said about the pace of Smash 4; SLAJ fixes this. I'm not going to go into the debate of whether it's "more competitive", but if you need an answer look up anything regarding what makes a game competitive, for both spectators and players.

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I was merely pointing out the implications of your statement, you probably didn't mean to phrase it as though you think regular Smash 4 is worse, but it does make us as a sub-community look bad when you phrase stuff like the way you did. Stuff like equipment and customs has already divided the community enough, and we should do our best to get along with our vanilla bros; Using phrasing like 'more competitive', or 'fixes' isn't helping, even if you didn't mean to diss them. Just say something generic such as we like the game faster, or something.

I play Melee.
One frame here is the difference between a Fox dying from the Marth chaingrab and shining out into advantage. Please don't break Sheik.
Hard Braker seems alright. Like I said, I play Melee.
Maybe 20 spd.

Throwing out the word 'broken' like this without testing is foolish, at best. No one here even wants to test two Smooth Landers, you just want to shut it down because of how you THINK it's going to be.

It's nice that you play Melee, but this isn't Melee. It's a totally different environment, where no character is close to the level of Melee Fox, and where the low tiers need all the help they can get because there's no more advanced mobility options anymore. Two Smooth Landers would help close the gap. For every 1 frame the high tiers benefit, the low tiers would get 2, or 3, or 4. Think about that. Don't just ignore the benefits because you're allergic to something that hasn't been done before.

I'm not going to believe for a second that Sheik is going to be broken by 1 frame's worth of difference until anyone here can prove it, instead of using hearsay.


I really think that if we're going to be the pro-equipment group, we owe it to ourselves to experiment, and find a more optimized experience, instead of clinging to a setup that is one step away from what we were forced to use previously because hacking wasn't a thing at the time.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

but I've already tested all the potential badge options, you don't need to have the equipment legit to mess with it in offline local play + training mode lol

 

[Krysco]

Speed affects run, walk and air speed along with jump height so in regards to the speed between 19 and 28(?) I'd say experimenting is probably best to see which number best helps the cast, either the majority or the low tiers or causes the least problems. A single point change in speed can make a sh have either 1 or 2 aerials, least in vanilla. I imagine it'd be similar in SLAJ/SLHG.

As for the stacking Smooth Lander, I doubt I can test it but if it helps those with laggier aerials more than those with near-lagless aerials then I'd be cool with it. Can't think of anyone overwhelming who has high landing lag on aerials anyways. Ike's the worst that comes to mind but then I'm used to vanilla.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Okay, so let's start with the fact that you've completely ignored all my counter arguments about your somewhat obtuse phrasing, and the 2 smooth landers debacle, namely the positives that go with the negatives, and the speed settings.

So, you're telling me you tested stuff on your 3Ds? What did you test, exactly? Why did you ask for my help if you already hacked a plethora of equipment into the game? You have to have correct or at least close range values for badges to appear at all.

Also, are you just resorting to laughing at my supposed stupidity? Really? I'm just trying to suggest that everyone should be more open to stuff, but it looks like you've just decided what's best for everyone, namely to do a hard braker in the third slot, or nothing. You even said that if other people want to do two smooth landers, they can, but there's clearly going to be an official build that you're in charge of, so don't insult me or others by pretending they have a say in the official build if they want to do something you're strongly opposed to. Even if everyone out-voted you on the 2 Smooth Landers debacle, would you change it? Why do you get to decide here? You more or less shoe-horned your way into this thread, hijacked control from Muro, and have been a little rude when responding to opinions different from yours ever since. Is this really about SLAJ being better, or is it about you getting what you want, because you believe you're the most knowledgeable? You're making us look bad, man. I want to be part of a sub-community, not a bunch of snobs.

Speed affects run, walk and air speed along with jump height so in regards to the speed between 19 and 28(?) I'd say experimenting is probably best to see which number best helps the cast, either the majority or the low tiers or causes the least problems. A single point change in speed can make a sh have either 1 or 2 aerials, least in vanilla. I imagine it'd be similar in SLAJ/SLHG.

As for the stacking Smooth Lander, I doubt I can test it but if it helps those with laggier aerials more than those with near-lagless aerials then I'd be cool with it. Can't think of anyone overwhelming who has high landing lag on aerials anyways. Ike's the worst that comes to mind but then I'm used to vanilla.

THANK YOU, at least you have an open mind.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

First, your claim about having "proper range values" to have equipment appear at all is completely false. As long as you're using a generic number that isn't part of the "every other" crew, it'll appear. How else would people be able to get 200+ Speed, Attack and Defense on one piece of equipment?

I've already said that if another Smooth Lander badge is decided, I would not support it, thus allowing anybody else to make the official build and release it. I've never taken control, I simply put together a build for SLAJ and released it to the public. Muro still owns the thread, nothing new has been created, etc.

As you're seemingly unaware, I'm not forcing my opinion on anybody. We constantly have discussions in the SLAJ Discord and overall, after reviewing the build and speaking with more knowledgeable players, we came to the conclusion that the best build would be Dodgy Dodger in replacement of Moon Launcher. You informed me that wouldn't work, thus, we decided it's either no Moon Launcher or Hard Braker. This was a collective decision through actual discussion.

Really, all I've done is take initiative and get a build to be released. Nothing was being done and SLHG was dying. You're just getting overly defensive because I've said a second smooth lander badge isn't in best interest. You act like none of us are capable of testing anything and we have no knowledge on this game or equipment whatsoever, to be honest.

edit:

also, to answer the actual question I've tested basically every possible moon launcher replacement, run through the actual in-game data to find out how things are statistically being affected (ie: amount of frames for shield degenerator to regen a shield), and checked different speed stats on different stages w/ platforms

I've also done tests to find out what's being changed in terms of speed from vanilla and SLAJ

 

[SAHunterMech]

As you're seemingly unaware, I'm not forcing my opinion on anybody

I'm perfectly aware of the 2-and-a-half pages of you borderline mocking Muro's every counter-point. Maybe he didn't actually play SLAJ, but you could have handled that way better for being the guy who suggested SLAJ to everyone in the first place.

We constantly have discussions in the SLAJ Discord and overall, after reviewing the build and speaking with more knowledgeable players, we came to the conclusion that the best build would be Dodgy Dodger in replacement of Moon Launcher.

If you're having great discussions there, cool, but to anyone who just walked into this thread, they may not even know the Discord exists, and they're totally distanced from the discussions at hand. Hell, I've been following this thread and I didn't know important discussions were there. I just thought it was a chat room for getting matches set up. Any reason why we're not being kept up to date in this thread?

I've already said that if another Smooth Lander badge is decided, I would not support it, thus allowing anybody else to make the official build and release it.

What's that supposed to mean? You'll just throw in the towel? I have a hard time believing you'll do something like that. And how many people here can just cook up a working build, anyway? That leaves you in a pretty good spot, doesn't it?

Really, all I've done is take initiative and get a build to be released. Nothing was being done and SLHG was dying.

So, you're vindicating your multitude of immature responses because you perceived the thread to be dying, and you saved it?

You're just getting overly defensive because I've said a second smooth lander badge isn't in best interest.

A-HA. Already trying to weasel your previous phrasing of "I personally don't believe another Smooth Lander badge should be used and will not support it" into "isn't in best interest"? So you do know better? And you do speak for everyone? And... you think I'm being defensive? I don't care what the community chooses, as long as they choose it, and not one person alone, who is potentially going to bail because my suggestion is so preposterous.

You act like none of us are capable of testing anything and we have no knowledge on this game or equipment whatsoever, to be honest.

Wow. Just.. wow. I'm sorry, I responded to comments in the form of "I THINK this will be bad", not, "I'm PRETTY SURE this will be bad because I've tested it and I've been able to form an opinion from that testing".

also, to answer the actual question I've tested basically every possible moon launcher replacement, run through the actual in-game data to find out how things are statistically being affected (ie: amount of frames for shield degenerator to regen a shield), and checked different speed stats on different stages w/ platforms

Well, that's a start, but still super vague. How do I know you tested 2 smooth landers? What if 2 Smooth Landers wasn't in your definition of 'every possible moon launcher replacement'? And even if you have, so far it's just you that's just been doing the testing, to my knowledge. I'm tempted to just make and upload the thing myself, along with any other suggested third badge replacements, so that everyone can try it out and form a whole opinion. Discussion just isn't the same as play-testing.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I really haven't been playing SLAJ lately myself, just occasional matches with Hobbes

I have better things to do so if it comes to it I really wouldn't care to let it go

@ the rest of your post

ok

 

[KeithTheGeek]

TBH I think he does have points that haven't really been addressed. I'm not the correct person to argue for or against these things but I will say this.

We've already gone beyond the scope of the game by involving 3DS homebrew. This in of itself is a huge barrier to entry for people that don't already have the 3DS, game, and DLC. At this point I feel it's silly not to experiment some. Like...the whole purpose of SLHG originally was to provide a way to boost the game using options provided by the game. At this point, why not try to find the best balance for stats and equipment besides "SLHG but faster with better recoveries"?

I mean we can even do so much more than just equipment. Custom moves (#LegalizeWizardsDropkick) are another possibility. Just saying, but the moment you involve homebrew you opened the game up to so much more. The only reason we're only sticking with what we have now is because a small number of people (out of an already small community) just sorta decided what we have is good, and any alternatives apparently don't work.

All that is unrelated though. The point is, is frame 6 Sheik aerials broken? Then play Sheik, prove she's broken. IDK, an unwillingness to debate and test (beyond saying you tested these things already without providing any evidence) is harmful imo. I'm fine with what we have now, I was fine with SLHG, and I'll probably be fine with whatever we decide in the future but we gotta get this game's identity sorted out or it'll die.