SmashG0D's Marth Matchup Guide

Smash G 0 D

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GRimer
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#1
***Updated 12/17/15: tweaked Sheik/Fox section. Still not exhaustive. Added Marth ditto section, and VIDEOS of match analysis for Marth and Peach. Leave other character requests / questions in the thread replies.

Hey - I'm SmashG0D. You may have seen me at Xanadu on VGBootCamp in any number of games, and I was recently sponsored by Haven eSports! I have been playing Melee competitively since 2005. Earlier this year, I made the switch to all-Marth in Melee and have seen a great deal of success since then, taking sets off of Nintendude, The Moon, Vist, Milkman, and more in my region, as well as placing decently at EVO and SSC (top 100 and 33rd respectively).

In preparation of EVO, I wrote down some tips for certain matchups that I knew I would need work on. I've decided to share the document with you all in the hopes of furthering Marth's metagame. Additionally, if you guys find this sort of thing helpful, I will continue to update the thread with improvements on things I've already written (since EVO I have already changed my mind about a couple things I wrote) and add more tips for more matchups.

I'd appreciate a quick follow on Twitter (@SmashG0D) where I am always happy to answer questions. I'll also answer any more in-depth questions on this thread.

I would ALSO appreciate a subscribe on YouTube! You'll find that I'll be uploading helpful things from my stream on there (twitch.tv/smashg0d) such as match analyses (there are two already up). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZComqYxvfCD8qOcKN5cUvA

***Disclaimer: the purpose of this document was to remind me of things I may not already have been doing, so it relies on a pre-existing familiarity with certain matchups. I will gladly elaborate on any sections as requested.

So here ya go:


Fox

If you have a half-decent neutral game and good punish game, follow these three steps:

1) Don't get gimped.

-Sometimes, when recovering, if there is a chance of Fox dropping off ledge and shining, or jumping in an arc from stage to shinespike you, it is better to wait for him to act (don't sideB), and UpB into Fox.

2) Don't try to grab after a shine.

-Even if it looks like Fox messed up and is stuck in shine, he can just jump out. It is better to plan on buffering an aerial OoS, or to buffer roll away, or to jump into the shine after the aerial on your shield and just take the shine hit.

-You can grab if Fox does a high Nair in place. If the Nair is retreating, buffer Nair OoS. If Nair is going through you, WD in place and turn-around grab.

-Generally, you want to reset to neutral if Fox is pressuring you. You can do this by buffering roll out or by jumping into the shine.

-**If you notice that your opponent continuously gets stuck in shine, then you can go for the grab. There are no hard-and-fast rules.

3) Do not get shined off the stage.

-Make sure to press Down so that you grab ledge instead of falling off the stage. If you do fall off the stage, don't panic and aerial. Usually recovering low / aiming for a sweetspot UpB is the best course of action. But grabbing ledge is always ideal, because you can come back with an aerial or ledgedash.

Neutral:

Pivot rising Fairs and Pivot Nairs are strong tools in neutral. Pivot Nairs beat spotdodges and running shines, and both Pivot Fair and Nair beat SHFFL Nair.

When Fox is above 70-80%, it is better to Fthrow or Dthrow him near the ledge instead of attempting Uthrow combos. There is a good chance Fox can escape to the higher platforms off Uthrow, and you would just be reaching with Uairs.

You want to box Fox out and be prepared to react to his approach. If Fox is laser camping you, most of the time it's a bait. Stay patient. It's better to take a few extra % than fall into easy Uthrow Uairs.

Don't underestimate your own CC in neutral at low %.

Punish Game:

Over 80-90%, start looking for opportunities to UpB or reverse UpB off of UThrows.

On FD -

-Use more Fair while comboing on the stage. The upward hits are good, but when Fox is above 60-70% and not in a good location for a Tipper kill, you need to carry him towards the ledge with Fairs.

Recovering:

-If you sideB anywhere from close to medium and below the stage, Fox can jump out and shine you. It is possible to bait the shine and hit Fox with the second hit of sideB. Upward-angled second hit might be better because it will catch Fox jumping above you (?).

-When Fox is grabbing ledge, and you are recovering low, it is difficult for Fox to react to either the high UpB or the attempted sweetspot UpB. He has to plan on either getting up and attacking with Dsmash/shine or on rolling for the edgehog. If you go high, depending on whether he has refreshed invincibility, he can also ledgehop Bair/Uair you when you land. For the low option, he can either roll and edgehog or try and shine you - the problem with the latter option is that he may have lost invincibility by this point, and get hit by your UpB.

Edgeguarding:

If Fox is:
Close and above the stage, go out and Fair or Dair him.
Close and below the stage, timing a Dtilt is probably the best option. If he goes for the sweetspot, you can hit him with good timing. If he goes diagonal, you’ll hit him. Straight up, you hit him or whiff and have time to reach.
Medium and above the stage, face away from the ledge. Waveland onto ledge to cover sweetspot. Otherwise wait, and catch him in the air.
Medium and below the stage, grab ledge and react accordingly.
Far and below the stage, grab ledge and edgehog.
Far and above the stage, face towards the edge and react.

In order to catch Fox UpB sweetspot with Fsmash or Dtilt, you must be right at the ledge. This typically needs to be a hard read.

Fair Dtilts are good near the ledge.

On Battlefield -
-Keep in mind that Fox loses the option to go for Mangles to sweetspot the ledge.


Sheik

Neutral:

From HAT: “1. Focus on pressuring Sheik. 2. Read her movements. 3. Dtilt is boss.”

***********The two best tools to use against Sheik in neutral are: dash-dancing and Dtilt. If you take nothing else away from this section, remember those two tools.

Juggle Sheik, then push/smash her off the stage!

Do not overreach towards Sheik with an Aerial if she is sitting in shield. You should make sure she’s always at least a sword’s length away.

Be wary of using your second jump when you are above 80-90%.

If you can’t smash Sheik off the stage at high %, grab her or Utilt(?) her. Or if a Tipper would kill across the screen, you can try and space that.

Dtilt is good in front of Sheik. If you predict a jump and can get under her, go for a turn-around/Pivot grab, or an Utilt.

Punish Game:

At 0%, you should be deciding between Fthrow, Dthrow, and Uthrow. If there is no platform, definitely don't Uthrow because you get nothing at 0%. Generally, I like to Dthrow and tech-case / get a free Dtilt. Some Marths say Fthrow is good for the regrab, but if the Sheik knows how to DI Fthrow, then there is no guaranteed regrab at 0%. Starting Uthrow-ing at around 13%.

Don’t over-commit to hard punishes. If you whiff, Sheik can punish you hard.

Set up for juggles with Utilt and Uair when possible.

Edgeguarding:

Smash her off the stage, grab ledge, roll on, and repeat.

If you are at over 100%, then you need to be a bit trickier because you lose the roll get-up.

Hitting Sheik off the stage should be done with Fsmash tipper ideally, then UpB, then weak Fsmash. If you think Sheik is going to UpB onto the stage, you can ALWAYS get the Tipper. It's really hard to get consistently, especially if she goes far, but it is possibl.

Mix up the roll-on-stage with ledge-jump-invincibility-refresh to cover the option where Sheik UpB’s out (with the first hop of Vanish) and then aims directly for ledge (horizontally).

Recovery:

Never, ever accidentally do a Tournament-Winner.


Marth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xicY5Sq6bAY

Neutral:

Dash-dancing and Dtilt. You pretty much have to read when your opponent is going to get close, then decide how you want to Dtilt. If your opponent is committing to any other move at neutral, CC grab.

Punish Game:

Fthrow at 0% does not go into regrab. You can try for it and see if your opponent knows the proper DI (down and away). If your opponent Fthrows YOU at 0%, hold down and away, then you can dash away. If your opponent is slow, you can even jab or Fsmash. You'll land standing up.

Fthrow at higher %s will either get you a tech-chase opportunity or another hit. You can get Fairs, Nairs, Fsmashes, and pivot Fsmashes.

Uthrow doesn't guarantee you anything at mid%, but you can use it to scare your opponent out of their second jump, or get a Fair/Uair if you don't think they'll use the jump.

Edgeguarding:

A lot of Marths will sideB and float towards the stage, then jump for free onto the ledge. Your Dtilt and Fair and Fsmash won't cover the sweespot double-jump ledge grab. In this scenario, you need to run off and hit them with Fair or DJ Dair. If you do, they are dead, but if you misread or whiff, you risk death.

If Marth is coming from high, you can option select him by Dtilting to cover the fall-onto-ledge, and being preparing to jump Fair in case he sideB's or air dodges. If you see Marth do that in the air, just whack him back off and grab ledge. He'll die.

Recovery:

You gotta be tricky. Learn how to sweetspot ledge with UpB. Be prepared for Marth to run off and try to hit you - in that case, if you have double jump, use it and throw out your Fair hitbox. If you are going to attempt to airdodge onto the stage, you are better off trying to airdodge THROUGH Marth so he can't hit you back off. You have to make a read for this.


Peach - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtt7Wu6a2aM

Stages

Strike/ban Dreamland in general. The platforms are too high for most of Marth's grounded moves, which makes retreating to platforms a strong defensive option AGAINST Marth. Not good for you.


Bans/Strikes - Against:
Fox: Dreamland
Falco: Dreamland
Peach: Dreamland
Sheik: Dreamland
Puff: Dreamland
Falcon: Dreamland
Ice Climbers: FD ****EDIT: I would not ban Dreamland against Ice Climbers anymore. In fact, I think it might be better than FD. You can camp on platforms and wait out the ICs wall / punish openings on Dreamland, whereas on FD you are forced to fight through the wall.

Counterpicks - Against:
Fox (you ban DL, Fox will probably CP you to Yoshi's or Stadium):
1) FD (make sure you practice punishes here. Before I went all Marth, I would take spacies to FD without having practiced, and I would just get bodied. It is NOT an auto-win for Marth. You need to practice.)
2) Fountain of Dreams is usually my go-to pick after FD. Due to the nature of the platforms, you occasionally get an FD-esque section of the stage where you are free to chain-grab. The high ceiling also prevents you from getting Uair/Usmash KO'd too early, and the narrow sides offer you earlier Fsmash kills. All in all, it gives you enough room to play and beat Fox in neutral, and some opportunities for 0-deaths, as well as benefiting you in the survival category.
3) Yoshi's Story: Spacies typically like this stage as much as they like Stadium. It can really go either way. You need to determine in what ways you are winning and losing versus your particular opponent. If you can avoid early combos from your enemy Fox, then Yoshi's should be fine because you won't be getting combo'd to death at 50%. You'll get early kills and easy edgeguards on this stage, but it depends heavily on the neutral. If you need more space against a particular opponent, then go to FoD. If not, then this stage is fine.
[Stadium: a bit of a ballsy pick, but it can be good. It gives you a great deal of horizontal space on which to move, but does not weaken you quite as much as Dreamland. I don't usually feel the need to counterpick here, because I feel like if I beat a Fox on a stage I might prefer, they'll take me here anyways.]

Falco (you ban DL, Falco will probably CP you to Yoshi's or Stadium):
Pretty much the same as Fox. You can get combo'd ever harder/more easily to death on Yoshi's by Falco than by Fox, but you can also combo him/kill him more easily. Again, it's preference. But keep in mind that Falco doesn't kill off the top quite as easily, and kills off the sides with Bair and Fsmash, which makes the zones of FoD slightly less favorable. So if CP-ing vs Fox is 1) FD, 2) FoD, and 3) YS, I would say CP-ing vs Falco is 1) FD, 2) FoD = 2) YS.
Also, it might seem intimidating to fight Falco on FD where there are no platforms to help you escape from lasers. Read: learn to powershield. According to PP, it is also okay to let Falco hit you with lasers sometimes into a dash because Falco will be expecting some sort of defensive option anyways. Your punishes and edgeguards are worth dealing with tough lasers on FD.

(it's late so I'm not gonna go into as much detail for the next few characters... but I might eventually)

Sheik (you ban Dreamland, Sheik will probably take you to FoD):
1) FD as usual. It's Marth's best stage. Sheik cannot escape to platforms which reduces her zone coverage with aerial needles, plus you can dash-dance camp more easily and juggle her to your heart's content.
2/3) Stadium. Sheik likes static setups. You control Stadium more easily than she.
2/3) Yoshi's. Early kills, less space for her to run away, and you threaten her platform escape routes more easily.
Fountain is not too bad, but if you ban Dreamland, Sheik will take you either to Fountain or Battlefield.

Peach (you ban Dreamland, Peach will probably take you to FoD or BF):
1) FD/Yoshi's. You should always win neutral on FD - Peach can turnip camp and you just have to get past that. Some Peaches actually like FD in this MU because you can't platform camp to escape turnips, but I think Marth still wins here if you know how to deal with turnips in your face. Your punishes and zone control are much stronger than Peach's on Yoshi's (but beware for her meaty aerials at 80%+).
2) Stadium. Not a great Peach stage. Treat it like FD with some platforms and you'll be golden.

Puff (you ban Dreamland, Puff will probably take you to FoD):
1) FD/Yoshi's. Pretty much the same as Peach. You should win neutral at FD, because at some point you know Jiggs has to land on the same level as you. But it is difficult to pass up the early kills on Jiggs that you would get on Yoshi's.

Falcon (you ban Dreamland, Falcon will probably take you to Stadium):
1) Fountain. It's Falcon's worst stage, and you do fine there.
2) FD or Yoshi's. Some Falcons like FD in this matchup. You have to not get greedy in neutral - if Falcon swings first, you beat him out with sideB, Utilt, Fsmash, etc. Sometimes you can mix up with a Nair approach to stuff Falcon. Your edgeguards become very relevant in this stage and a reliable way to rack up %. On Yoshi's, you should be controlling space very well and you have to worry less about Falcon DD, but you die very early to knees.

Ice Climbers (honestly CPs depend on the Ice Climbers...):
1) Yoshi's is pretty good for this one. ICs can set up more easily on bigger stages. But this really depends on the ICs - if the ICs don't like to set up walls (i.e. not playing the MU properly), then FD is a good pick. But if they do, this is a rare case where risking banning FD and getting taken to Dreamland is worth it. Stadium also works well in this matchup because transformations favor you, and you can camp platforms in the neutral transformation.
 
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FE_Hector

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#3
Wow, this looks great so far. Think you could work on adding vs Falco and Marth ditto stuff to it? I get it's a lot of work, so no rush of course
 

Smash G 0 D

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GRimer
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#4
Wow, this looks great so far. Think you could work on adding vs Falco and Marth ditto stuff to it? I get it's a lot of work, so no rush of course
I'm still working on Falco matchup in my head, so until I feel more confident about my opinion I won't add stuff on him (but hopefully this changes soon). And I'll definitely throw in some Marth ditto stuff.
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
GRimer
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#6
If I may ask what's the tournament winner?
"Tournament Winner" is smash slang for a jump from the ledge (i.e. pressing X, Y, or tapping Up while hanging from the ledge, causing your character to perform an animated leap from the ledge). It is very laggy on pretty much every character, and is almost always punished. It is a quick way to let your opponent win the tournament.
 

Ladder

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#7
"Tournament Winner" is smash slang for a jump from the ledge (i.e. pressing X, Y, or tapping Up while hanging from the ledge, causing your character to perform an animated leap from the ledge). It is very laggy on pretty much every character, and is almost always punished. It is a quick way to let your opponent win the tournament.
so a jump to get back on stage from the ledge? Is it really that bad :o good thing I don't use it that often
 

FROST :)

Smash Cadet
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#9
I really like this, I'd like to know your opinion on the Marth mirror match, as well as VS C.Falcon.
In general I would really like to know what stages I should aim to strike to in the common matchups, I do have a solid idea but its always better to hear the opinion of someone better.
Thank you for posting all of this data.
 

FE_Hector

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#10
Keep Fox and Falcon off of DreamLand at all costs. Falco will love FD, and the ditto doesn't make a big difference. That's what I can think of
 

FROST :)

Smash Cadet
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#11
as for Marth Vs. Fox, I thought of trying to play them on FD, FoD or yoshi's. Avoiding DL
Falco probably to stadium or FoD (?)
the rest of the cast, I have literally no idea, I just try to strike to Battlefield, ban DL and play on yoshis/stadium
 

FE_Hector

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#12
as for Marth Vs. Fox, I thought of trying to play them on FD, FoD or yoshi's. Avoiding DL
Falco probably to stadium or FoD (?)
the rest of the cast, I have literally no idea, I just try to strike to Battlefield, ban DL and play on yoshis/stadium
I think that's generally a good idea. It handles most of Marth's weaknesses while playing up his strengths. If you're proficient at chaingrabs, Pokemon Stadium (in neutral), and all of FD could be huge assets for you.
 

DeadPigeon

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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#13
as for Marth Vs. Fox, I thought of trying to play them on FD, FoD or yoshi's. Avoiding DL
Falco probably to stadium or FoD (?)
the rest of the cast, I have literally no idea, I just try to strike to Battlefield, ban DL and play on yoshis/stadium
FD is only good if you can combo (or chaingrab) better than your opponent. If you're winning neutral but punishing worse, perhaps FD is not the best pick
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
GRimer
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#14
I really like this, I'd like to know your opinion on the Marth mirror match, as well as VS C.Falcon.
In general I would really like to know what stages I should aim to strike to in the common matchups, I do have a solid idea but its always better to hear the opinion of someone better.
Thank you for posting all of this data.
*****EDIT: updated some of these stage picks, notably ICs. Also, adding this to the OP.

I will be adding a section on the Marth mirror sometime soon. I'm still working out the Falcon matchup myself, but I have some stuff I can throw in there.

Strike/ban Dreamland in general. The platforms are too high for most of Marth's grounded moves, which makes retreating to platforms a strong defensive option AGAINST Marth. Not good for you.

Bans/Strikes - Against:
Fox: Dreamland
Falco: Dreamland
Peach: Dreamland
Sheik: Dreamland
Puff: Dreamland
Falcon: Dreamland
Ice Climbers: FD ****EDIT: I would not ban Dreamland against Ice Climbers anymore. In fact, I think it might be better than FD. You can camp on platforms and wait out the ICs wall / punish openings on Dreamland, whereas on FD you are forced to fight through the wall.

Counterpicks - Against:
Fox (you ban DL, Fox will probably CP you to Yoshi's or Stadium):
1) FD (make sure you practice punishes here. Before I went all Marth, I would take spacies to FD without having practiced, and I would just get bodied. It is NOT an auto-win for Marth. You need to practice.)
2) Fountain of Dreams is usually my go-to pick after FD. Due to the nature of the platforms, you occasionally get an FD-esque section of the stage where you are free to chain-grab. The high ceiling also prevents you from getting Uair/Usmash KO'd too early, and the narrow sides offer you earlier Fsmash kills. All in all, it gives you enough room to play and beat Fox in neutral, and some opportunities for 0-deaths, as well as benefiting you in the survival category.
3) Yoshi's Story: Spacies typically like this stage as much as they like Stadium. It can really go either way. You need to determine in what ways you are winning and losing versus your particular opponent. If you can avoid early combos from your enemy Fox, then Yoshi's should be fine because you won't be getting combo'd to death at 50%. You'll get early kills and easy edgeguards on this stage, but it depends heavily on the neutral. If you need more space against a particular opponent, then go to FoD. If not, then this stage is fine.
[Stadium: a bit of a ballsy pick, but it can be good. It gives you a great deal of horizontal space on which to move, but does not weaken you quite as much as Dreamland. I don't usually feel the need to counterpick here, because I feel like if I beat a Fox on a stage I might prefer, they'll take me here anyways.]

Falco (you ban DL, Falco will probably CP you to Yoshi's or Stadium):
Pretty much the same as Fox. You can get combo'd ever harder/more easily to death on Yoshi's by Falco than by Fox, but you can also combo him/kill him more easily. Again, it's preference. But keep in mind that Falco doesn't kill off the top quite as easily, and kills off the sides with Bair and Fsmash, which makes the zones of FoD slightly less favorable. So if CP-ing vs Fox is 1) FD, 2) FoD, and 3) YS, I would say CP-ing vs Falco is 1) FD, 2) FoD = 2) YS.
Also, it might seem intimidating to fight Falco on FD where there are no platforms to help you escape from lasers. Read: learn to powershield. According to PP, it is also okay to let Falco hit you with lasers sometimes into a dash because Falco will be expecting some sort of defensive option anyways. Your punishes and edgeguards are worth dealing with tough lasers on FD.

(it's late so I'm not gonna go into as much detail for the next few characters... but I might eventually)

Sheik (you ban Dreamland, Sheik will probably take you to FoD):
1) FD as usual. It's Marth's best stage. Sheik cannot escape to platforms which reduces her zone coverage with aerial needles, plus you can dash-dance camp more easily and juggle her to your heart's content.
2/3) Stadium. Sheik likes static setups. You control Stadium more easily than she.
2/3) Yoshi's. Early kills, less space for her to run away, and you threaten her platform escape routes more easily.
Fountain is not too bad, but if you ban Dreamland, Sheik will take you either to Fountain or Battlefield.

Peach (you ban Dreamland, Peach will probably take you to FoD or BF):
1) FD/Yoshi's. You should always win neutral on FD - Peach can turnip camp and you just have to get past that. Some Peaches actually like FD in this MU because you can't platform camp to escape turnips, but I think Marth still wins here if you know how to deal with turnips in your face. Your punishes and zone control are much stronger than Peach's on Yoshi's (but beware for her meaty aerials at 80%+).
2) Stadium. Not a great Peach stage. Treat it like FD with some platforms and you'll be golden.

Puff (you ban Dreamland, Puff will probably take you to FoD):
1) FD/Yoshi's. Pretty much the same as Peach. You should win neutral at FD, because at some point you know Jiggs has to land on the same level as you. But it is difficult to pass up the early kills on Jiggs that you would get on Yoshi's.

Falcon (you ban Dreamland, Falcon will probably take you to Stadium):
1) Fountain. It's Falcon's worst stage, and you do fine there.
2) FD or Yoshi's. Some Falcons like FD in this matchup. You have to not get greedy in neutral - if Falcon swings first, you beat him out with sideB, Utilt, Fsmash, etc. Sometimes you can mix up with a Nair approach to stuff Falcon. Your edgeguards become very relevant in this stage and a reliable way to rack up %. On Yoshi's, you should be controlling space very well and you have to worry less about Falcon DD, but you die very early to knees.

Ice Climbers (honestly CPs depend on the Ice Climbers...):
1) Yoshi's is pretty good for this one. ICs can set up more easily on bigger stages. But this really depends on the ICs - if the ICs don't like to set up walls, then FD is a good pick. But if they do, this is a rare case where risking banning FD and getting taken to Dreamland is worth it. Stadium also works well in this matchup because transformations favor you, and you can camp platforms in the neutral transformation.

I'm tired but ask more questions if you like. I'll compile stuff more neatly as we go along and add it to the OP.

Also feel free to refute/support anything I've claimed in this post. I'm more convinced in some of these counterpicks than I am in others.
 
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FE_Hector

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#15
I thought I'd add in my own thoughts about each stage for Marth as a general rule. I can elaborate more, but I think that the specifics are a bit tedious and you can figure out the logic behind it all without too much struggle. Anyways:

PS: It's generally a bet. Marth generally has advantages in the stage. In its neutral state, he can generally chain grab in the middle area, which is really advantageous. The grass and water transformations are neutral enough, with the water one favoring Marth if you can manage to stay on the ground. Rock transformation: GET ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE STADIUM AND DON'T GET BAITED IN CUZ FOX WILL WRECK YOU IN 5 SECONDS. Fire: I prefer the right side. Force them to the left and threaten fsmash through the tree or utilt if they come over.

FD: You definitely need good chain grab and punish skills in order to handle it well. It's really a good test of those two abilities.

YS: It's actually a pretty good stage for Marth overall. If you're not too comfortable taking the offensive, his sword patrols so much of the stage at once, and his presence can easily threaten just about any move in his formidable moveset.

FoD: Be careful in this stage. In the right situation, your opponent may be able to wall jump -> upB for a ridiculous recovery, but otherwise it's a pretty nice stage for Marth for much the same reason that YS is.

Battlefield: Don't get battlefielded, but otherwise a pretty good stage. Just keep your mind open and try to chain grab under the middle platform at low %s.

DL: High lower platforms makes it a pain for Marth to patrol, though utilt can still hit. Also, the ridiculous size of the stage makes it a total pain for Marth to keep his opponents in relatively close quarters like he likes them.
 

Smash G 0 D

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#16
Something to note about Battlefield vs Fox - you need to work hard to get the sweetspot recovery. If you miss the sweetspot, then Fox can CC Dsmash your UpB all day, and you will fall to your death. I had to learn this the hard way (thanks Redd).

On the other hand, Fox loses the ability to mix up riding up the wall and going high, so if you can sweetspot the ledge on command and catch the CC Dsmash mixup (Fox will lightshield to bait the earlier UpB and CC Dsmash), then it's not a bad pick.

Though the CG in the middle of the stage doesn't happen too much. If you can do it, great. Otherwise you're better off going for tech-reads on platforms.
 

FE_Hector

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#17
Something to note about Battlefield vs Fox - you need to work hard to get the sweetspot recovery. If you miss the sweetspot, then Fox can CC Dsmash your UpB all day, and you will fall to your death. I had to learn this the hard way (thanks Redd).

On the other hand, Fox loses the ability to mix up riding up the wall and going high, so if you can sweetspot the ledge on command and catch the CC Dsmash mixup (Fox will lightshield to bait the earlier UpB and CC Dsmash), then it's not a bad pick.

Though the CG in the middle of the stage doesn't happen too much. If you can do it, great. Otherwise you're better off going for tech-reads on platforms.
This man speaks truth
 

The Leaf

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8
#18
Against Falcon I feel like FD is really strong for Falcon. I tend to ban it more than Dreamland. In the same way Marth can 0-death spacies, Falcon can do the same to Marth here. Marth has a strong punish game as well, but the lack of platforms makes it nearly impossible for Marth to escape Falcon's Uair chains even with good DI. You also lose out on platform punishes which are amazing since Falcon's tech roll is ***. Additionally the platforms give you tech options, of which Falcon can only cover 2 or 3 of the 4 at a given time, which is better than having no mixup in the first place. You mentioned that Falcon has no recovery mixups on FD which is true, so that's a decent plus for it, but at the same time the stage is SO much larger than Yoshi's that often times Marth can't find a way to get Falcon off stage. If the Falcon is smart, he should always DI in and tech in when he's put near the edge with a dthrow and eat the follow up grab/fsmash because it will keep him in the middle of the stage (as M2K did vs. PP in their MLG set, also note M2K CP'd Falcon on that stage vs. PP's Marth). Depends on the Falcon but Yoshi's is my go to CP if FoD is banned, but occasionally I may go PS (I love the stage tho so I'm probably overrating it). The small platforms in neutral stage make platform punishes incredibly potent on Falcon here, but the horizontal space tends to favor Falcon. Falcon also probably wins on all transformations here.

In the Puff matchup I'm not sure why you left out PS as a plausible counterpick vs. Puff. She has trouble killing off the top vs. Marth (Usmash and Uair are the only real ways, and it's hard for her to get in that close on Marth), so the low ceiling helps more than it hurts (side B > Utilt OP). Additionally the horizontal space is very good for Marth to dash dance and bait Puff's aerials, and the generous side blast zones work almost as well as Yoshi's for cheesy tipper kills at low percent (like < 40% if they **** up real bad). I actually like this as a CP more than Yoshi's because of the space to move around. Yoshi's feels too small at times to get around Puff's large bair, and it feels like the small space let's her get in on Marth more easily at times. The same reason FD is a good CP in this matchup makes me think PS is even better.

Same thing with Peach too. PS >= Yoshi's imo. It's so bad for Peach when Marth can move around so much. The lower ceiling means Utilt kills earlier, and no large side platforms means camping them with Dsmash (as scrubby as it is it works sometimes, even at high levels) isn't an option. The additional space can give Peach more room to pull turnips tho, so I can see why Yoshi's might be the better pick.
 
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Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
GRimer
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
3,599
Location
Charlottesville, VA
#19
Against Falcon I feel like FD is really strong for Falcon. I tend to ban it more than Dreamland. In the same way Marth can 0-death spacies, Falcon can do the same to Marth here. Marth has a strong punish game as well, but the lack of platforms makes it nearly impossible for Marth to escape Falcon's Uair chains even with good DI. You also lose out on platform punishes which are amazing since Falcon's tech roll is ***. Additionally the platforms give you tech options, of which Falcon can only cover 2 or 3 of the 4 at a given time, which is better than having no mixup in the first place. You mentioned that Falcon has no recovery mixups on FD which is true, so that's a decent plus for it, but at the same time the stage is SO much larger than Yoshi's that often times Marth can't find a way to get Falcon off stage. If the Falcon is smart, he should always DI in and tech in when he's put near the edge with a dthrow and eat the follow up grab/fsmash because it will keep him in the middle of the stage (as M2K did vs. PP in their MLG set, also note M2K CP'd Falcon on that stage vs. PP's Marth). Depends on the Falcon but Yoshi's is my go to CP if FoD is banned, but occasionally I may go PS (I love the stage tho so I'm probably overrating it). The small platforms in neutral stage make platform punishes incredibly potent on Falcon here, but the horizontal space tends to favor Falcon. Falcon also probably wins on all transformations here.

In the Puff matchup I'm not sure why you left out PS as a plausible counterpick vs. Puff. She has trouble killing off the top vs. Marth (Usmash and Uair are the only real ways, and it's hard for her to get in that close on Marth), so the low ceiling helps more than it hurts (side B > Utilt OP). Additionally the horizontal space is very good for Marth to dash dance and bait Puff's aerials, and the generous side blast zones work almost as well as Yoshi's for cheesy tipper kills at low percent (like < 40% if they **** up real bad). I actually like this as a CP more than Yoshi's because of the space to move around. Yoshi's feels too small at times to get around Puff's large bair, and it feels like the small space let's her get in on Marth more easily at times. The same reason FD is a good CP in this matchup makes me think PS is even better.

Same thing with Peach too. PS >= Yoshi's imo. It's so bad for Peach when Marth can move around so much. The lower ceiling means Utilt kills earlier, and no large side platforms means camping them with Dsmash (as scrubby as it is it works sometimes, even at high levels) isn't an option. The additional space can give Peach more room to pull turnips tho, so I can see why Yoshi's might be the better pick.
You are right in saying that Stadium is a good Jiggs counterpick.

I also like Stadium vs Peach. I actually flip-flop on YS vs Stadium for Peach... It honestly depends on your strength in the neutral game. If you have a very strong neutral game, honestly you should just go for FD every time. Stadium would be the 2nd-best pick (I played Alan at EVO and my wins were on FD and Stadium). It is important to be realistic at times, though. If your neutral game is a bit shy of sufficient, then I will say Yoshi's is a better pick.
 

The Leaf

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
8
#21
Uhhh, shouldn't everybody do that lol
If by everyone you mean every character, no. Characters with better tech options than Falcon can make great use of tech in place. Fox and Falco for example can tech in place > shine or tech in place > spotdodge to avoid the turnaround grab followup which is something that Falcon cannot do because of his crap frame data on his spotdodge which would let you get the grab anyway. Other characters that fall slower don't even need to tech in that situation. It can be bad for spacies to tech in on many stages, especially at low percent because it'll put them in the middle of the stage where there are no platforms, setting up for a chain grab.
 
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A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
#23
Punish Game:
Over 80-90%, start looking for opportunities to UpB or reverse UpB off of UThrows.
You can also U-throw into N-air at the higher range. On Yoshi's this can outright kill Fox if executed properly. It won't have the same kill power, but it's safer and can send Fox offstage for an edgeguard. Another thing I've been working on is pivot F-smash out of U-throw at ~70 - 85%. It is definitely doable if you watch their DI closely.
 
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Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
GRimer
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
3,599
Location
Charlottesville, VA
#28
Updated! Hope people find this helpful. I'm back home for winter break so time to speed up the grind! Please feel free to ask questions and stuff in the thread replies, I wanna get some good discussions going.
 

Ladder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
153
Location
Belgium
#29
In the ditto can marth always jump out of uthrow at any percent without marth getting an utilt/ up air?
Can you get the follow up if they DI wrong?
 
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