SmashCAP 2: Offensive Move Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

[SmashCAP 2]
Start date: 1/30/10
End date:--/--/--
Concept: Type Representation
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Ability: Shield Dust / Immunity
Stats: 121 / 55 / 127 / 90 / 103 / 64
Name: Lilbelle

Basically, discuss all comptitive attacking moves you think SmashCAP 2 should or shouldn't have, and EXPLAIN in your post as to why. Flavor posts should be ignored for now.

To make it easier for the whole of the community...please submit moves for the following 3 categories: "allowed," "controversial," and "unallowed."

Allowed
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Shadow Ball
Solarbeam
Shadow Sneak
Sludge Bomb
Night Shade
Thunderbolt
Air Cutter
Seed Bomb

Controversial

Unallowed
Wood Hammer
Needle Arm
Power Whip
Flamethrower
Seismic Toss
Explosion

Provided by Deck Knight from Smogon, here's a link to a helpful page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923214&postcount=34

With the conclusion of these, the Counters Discussion will prove more effective once we understand what moves SmashCAP 2 will possess.

Remember, all global forum rules apply! Happy brainstorming!

 

[supermarth64]

That link's dead, it literarly links to a URL with ... in it. Change it to either the topic itself http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40085 or to http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923214&postcount=34 for DK's post.

Anyway, this Pokemon reminds me a lot of a bulky Roserade/Froslass mix, so I expect a lot of movesets to be similar to those two.

 

[mood4food77]

Ghost

Always: Ghost, Sucker Punch, Psychic, Dream Eater, Will-O-Wisp
Rare attack types: Bug, Dragon, Ground, Poison, Rock, Steel, Water

Allowed:

Attacking:
Shadow Sneak
Ominous Wind
Shadow Punch
Shadow Claw
Shadow Ball
Night Shade
Psychic
Dream Eater
Sucker Punch

Non-Attacking:
Confuse Ray
Destiny Bond
Grudge
Memento
Mean Look
Pain Split
Spite
Will-O-Wisp
Trick
Trick Room

Grass

Always: Grass, Growth, Sunny Day, Swords Dance
Rare attack types: Electric, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Psychic, Water

Allowed:

Attacking:
Razor Leaf
Giga Drain
Magical Leaf
Needle Arm
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb
Leaf Blade
Petal Dance
Grass Knot
Power Whip
SolarBeam
Wood Hammer
Leaf Storm
Frenzy Plant

Non-Attacking:
Aromatherapy
Cotton Spore.
Ingrain
Leech Seed
Sleep Powder
Spore
Stun Spore
Synthesis
Worry Seed
Nature Power
Growth
Swords Dance
Sunny Day

well, here's the list of attacks that this thing must have with a little possibilities so we should just start off with this and then add to it if we want to

here are the list of TMs that this thing must have:

TM 06: Toxic
TM 10: Hidden Power
TM 11: Sunny Day
TM 15: Hyper Beam
TM 17: Protect
TM 21: Frustration
TM 27: Return
TM 32: Double Team
TM 42: Facade
TM 43: Secret Power
TM 44: Rest
TM 45: Attract
TM 58: Endure
TM 68: Giga Impact
TM 78: Captivate
TM 82: Sleep Talk
TM 83: Natural Gift
TM 90: Substitute

with those all aside, we can start talking about its other moves


one oddball thing though
grass and ghost clash with the move taunt, all ghosts learn the move but no grass types learn it, so we'll be breaking one of the rules here

i also think we should switch the poke to ghost/grass instead of grass/ghost, so it follows the primary-secondary line as this poke looks more like a ghost with grass like features instead of the other way around

 

[Circa]

Well you don't give it all of those. It does get a majority of them, but not all.

I'll try and compile a list later. Probably tomorrow when I have all the free time in the world.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'd prefer we started bit by bit but I guess that massive post works too.

Needle Arm doesn't seem likely, I just wanted to say. Not that it would use it anyways.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

the massive post is just the list of moves that we should work around at first as those are considered "must haves"

okay for obvious reasons, wood hammer, needle arm, and power whip go, i cannot see Libelle physically using

 

[UltiMario]

Sorting them out

Ghost

Always: Ghost, Sucker Punch, Psychic, Dream Eater, Will-O-Wisp
Rare attack types: Bug, Dragon, Ground, Poison, Rock, Steel, Water

Allowed:

Attacking:
Shadow Sneak
Shadow Ball
Night Shade
Psychic
Dream Eater

Non-Attacking:
Confuse Ray
Destiny Bond
Pain Split
Spite
Trick

Grass

Always: Grass, Growth, Sunny Day, Swords Dance
Rare attack types: Electric, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Psychic, Water

Allowed:

Attacking:
Giga Drain
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb
Petal Dance
Grass Knot
SolarBeam

Non-Attacking:
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Synthesis
Worry Seed
Nature Power
Growth
Sunny Day
___________
Iffy stuff:
Memento
Shadow Punch
Sucker Punch
Will-O-Wisp
Leech Seed
Leaf Storm


Discuss my opinion now.

 

[mood4food77]

i like your "must have" list
feels pretty good, like those are moves it feels like it should have

 

[Charmander]

When I see that, all I can think about is psycho boost...

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Definite moves are all the status-inducing moves: Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Will-o-Wisp, and even Confuse Ray.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

i could see it having the elemental punches

for whatever reason, i could see this learning flamethrower, don't ask why

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Flamethrower...? Fine I won't ask, ahaha.

Oh right I need to have the updated artwork. I'll fix that.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Memento asthetically fits Libelle.

I say yes on it.

 

[mood4food77]

like, you know how a lot of ghosts can use thunderbolt, well i can't see Libelle using it but using flamethrower instead, and it does seem like it could make an amazing team mate for sunny day (especially with its bulkiness)

like a sample moveset:

Sunny Day
Flamethrower
Solarbeam
Morning Sun


i think we just made a sunny day team viable

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Guys. The title. Offensive Move Discussion.

I violated my own title. But I edited in the actual artwork.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

i mean, can't we just make the entire moveset discussion here

it's a grass pokemon, their offensive movepools are very limited and since we probably have like 70% of the moves done already, can't we just make it the entire movepool

for me, listing out possible movesets that seem like this pokemon could use naturally helps with the competitive aspect

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Yeah but I'd rather we abide with the outline so everything can work out on everything.

Shadow Ball, Leaf Storm, and Energy Ball seem like givens on SmashCAP 2. Workable off the base Sp Atk stat they can serve as methods of offense. These should obviously be allowed.

Shadow Sneak should also be allowed, since it gives SmashCAP 2 a nice form of priority, which doesn't overpower it due to it's lackluster Attack stat.

I think that Night Shade could be an effective move on more defensive sets, giving a definite dealing move (except against Normal-types). However it may be that something like SmashCAP 2 with a move that strips away 100 health each use may be a bit pushing it. Night Shade for controversial.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Just coming in to say Night Shade should be allowed. Think about how badly Blissey already counters this Pokemon and you should understand. Plus, for the most part you'd probably want to just throw a move without set damage on it anyway. Coming off 90 base Special Attack, even with no EV investment, other moves will probably do more damage than Night Shade in most cases.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Night Slash, Needle Arm, and Wood Hammer are unallowed in my opinion for obvious reasons.

Shadow Punch should probably be allowed, although it won't get any use anyways.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Guys. The title. Offensive Move Discussion.

I violated my own title. But I edited in the actual artwork.

-Terywj

Oops, sorry.

OK. Offensive moves, eh?

How about Ominous Wind?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ominous Wind would be overshadowed by the presence of Shadow Ball. The off-chance of raising all stats +1 is too low, and SmashCAP 2 doesn't have Serene Grace to raise it to a meager 20%.

Of course it could be under allowed.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Hey, just trying to be helpful....

I think this thread answers itself quite nicely tbh.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Wait when did I criticize it? I was just stating it out. ^^;;

Other moves I can see SmashCAP 2 getting that won't contribute much: Seed Bomb, Petal Dance, Razor Leaf, Magical Leaf, and Lick.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

A'ight.

Seriously though. That list from Deck Knight pretty much sums up its Offensive movepool.

I can see a case for Silver Wind, but other than that, yeah....

 

[mood4food77]

i'm telling you, flamethrower man
give it that instead of thunderbolt

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Thunderbolt makes more sense than Flamethrower does, especially since it's there only for things named Skarmory+Magnezone.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Sludge Bomb.

All Grass Types can learn it.

Although it wouldn't be too useful....

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'm editing the list, let me know what you guys think.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Every Ghost can learn Night Shade.

Why is it controversial?

 

[mood4food77]

sludge bomb and night shade should be allowed, i see nothing against them

i feel giving this thing fire moves instead of electric would make it more unique and could make sunny day viable in OU play

 

[Metal~Mario]

Sunny day isn't viable cuz of how few Fire/Grass types there are in OU.

Not just because of the weather changers.

Giving Libelle Fire moves wouldn't help Sunny Day OU teams significantly.

 

[Circa]

Sunny Day is viable. It just isn't as strong as other weather types due to the contradicting nature of who benefits from it. Well, that and the fact that Grass isn't all that good of an attacking type. In order to make it work you actually need to not focus so much on "spam Sunny Day and sweepers all game" and actually put a full-on strategy behind it; using only a couple of sweepers as your Sunny Day abusers and the rest being support. There's a Sunny Day team in the RMT Archive actually, if you want to read up on it.

And in case you didn't notice, Rain Dance teams are extremely viable; despite the only Swift Swimmer in OU being Kingdra.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That said, Flamethrower is still in the controversial category.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Sunny Day is viable. It just isn't as strong as other weather types due to the contradicting nature of who benefits from it. Well, that and the fact that Grass isn't all that good of an attacking type. In order to make it work you actually need to not focus so much on "spam Sunny Day and sweepers all game" and actually put a full-on strategy behind it; using only a couple of sweepers as your Sunny Day abusers and the rest being support. There's a Sunny Day team in the RMT Archive actually, if you want to read up on it.

And in case you didn't notice, Rain Dance teams are extremely viable; despite the only Swift Swimmer in OU being Kingdra.

Rain Dance is Pro. Everyone knows that. (me included)

Where is this team?

 

[Circa]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59376

It's obviously a little outdated, but it still explains it pretty well, and is still pretty relevant.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

What do you guys think of Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab, and Air Cutter?

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Yes on Poison moves.

Air Cutter is Controversial. How would Libelle use it?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I honestly don't know how I came up with it..

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Just give it to her for the lulz. With Base 55 Atk, she won't be using it anyway.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Well no, if it's only for fandom / flavoring then I'll leave it off until later, haha.

-Terywj