SmashCAP 2: Non-Offensive Move Discussion

[Metal~Mario]

^SpecsTran Eruption?

CB Weavile's/Ttar's Pursuit?

SD Luke's Crunch/Ice Punch?

 

[Sir Bedevere]

Shouldn't this thing get TWave? It already has Tbolt, and Celebi has a very similar typing and it has TWave as well.

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Hmmmm....

How did I forget that?

Thanks, Sir Bedevere.

 

[mood4food77]

in comes heatran or tyranitar

and even then, that's not going to do enough damage to lilibelle, i think that's barely a 2HKO

you guys are underestimating the typing with the stats

Arcanine gets away with 555 BTS as it's fire type (a horrible defensive type) and it's movepool is pretty bad (it's both shallow and lacks a good amount of good moves)

Lilibelle has good moves, it can support, sweep, tank, stall, spinblock
AND it can do that all in one set too

Lilibelle@leftovers
Calm (+Sp.Def, -ATK)
252/120/96/42 (HP/SP.DEF/DEF/SP.ATK)
Substitute
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Leech Seed

Right there, you're talking about something with 446 HP, 314 DEF, 300 SP. DEF, with a 254 special attack

try taking that down, only cresselia is capable of acheiving the same feat and that has a much worse typing which much worse offensive capabilities

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Toxic/WoW Stalling?

Ttar w/Taunt?

 

[Wave⁂]

we have 121/127/103 defensive stats, none of those pokes have as good overall defensive stats as this does, nor the typing

Bronzong.

this type can come in on a lot of moves since it's immune to normal and fighting moves while resisting ground, electric, water, and grass moves, it's weak to flying, ice, fire, dark, and ghost moves which outside of ice and fire moves, aren't too common outside of stab (even fire is rare outside of stab, but it's much more common than the other types)

it's typing is much better than almost all the pokes you listed

So, Lilibelle's weaknesses are very uncommon excluding the common ones. Got it.

it's bulky enough that SE hits aren't going to deal a lot of damage (probably 60% most non-boosted), this thing is not getting OHKO'd

Calcs or it didn't happen.

snorlax: takes a lot of damage from physical attacks and is very often OHKO'd by physical fighting attacks

Curse Curse Curse Curse Body Slam sweep.

Shuckle: not as bulky as one may think, HP really kills it, in SS it's a ***** but other than that, it's not bulky

Who the hell uses Shuckle outside of Sand Stream?

Regirock: Not as bulky with a much worse typing

Regirock is both physically and specially bulkier in Sand Stream.

Steelix: not as bulky overall, takes physical hits better but taking special hits much, much worse than Lilibelle
Forretress: Lilibelle takes special attacks MUCH better than this circle does, but typing gives Forrey the advantage, physically
Skarmory: best physical wall in the game, but Lilibelle takes special hits much better than Skarm does
Latias: Better HP and better defense make Lilibelle a more well-rounded wall than Latias, but Latias is more annoying
Tangrowth: cannot take special attacks to save his life and pure grass is a bad type

You say that Lilibelle is better than physical walls because she can take special hits and that she is better than special walls because she can take physical hits. lol.

Bastiodon: Typing screws this guy over completely

So?

Dusknoir: Crap HP means Lilibelle is bulkier than Dusknoir (when defenses are that similar)
Weezing: Lilibelle takes special hits better and having more HP makes it better than Weezing
Donphan: pretty much the same reason as Weezing, also Lilibelle has a better typing

Also means you drain more HP with Pain Split. And you can actually hits stuff.

Leafeon: Pure grass as a typing sucks, HP not as good and neither is special defense
Hippowdon: Lilibelle has a better typing and better defensive stats in every category, Lilibelle wins here

They can actually hit stuff hard, though. And you value offense very much.

Umbreon: Lilibelle's HP makes it bulkier than Umbreon

Movepool.

Articuno: Lilibelle wins the typing award by a lot, Articuno gets ***** by SR

Who wins the specially bulkiness award?

Claydol: this thing can't deal damage and Lilibelle has better defensive stats

This thing also resists ****ing QuakeEdge and has Rapid Spin.

Registeel: Higer HP allows Lilibelle to survive better, Lilibelle has a better typing

I lol'd. Registeel's typing is fantastic, and he is, for all intents and purposes, a Lilibelle with balanced defenses.

Latias: Better HP and better defense make Lilibelle a more well-rounded wall than Latias, but Latias is more annoying

I lol'd even more than the Registeel one, which surprised me. Latias's typing is ridiculously good. Latias has an incredible movepool. Latias is much sturdier than Lilibelle specially. Latias has a better ability. Latias can sweep and wall things, often at the same time.

we may have to change the stats, it might be too good
yea it's BTS is 560, that's a tad bit too high, nothing should be higher than Arcanine, we gotta lower one of the stats not named attack or speed

I lol'd.

i hope you guys realize that Lilibelle is the absolute perfect partner for heatran and vice versa
whatever heatran is weak to, Lilibelle resists AND whatever Lilibelle is weak too, heatran resists

CeleTran

we have to change the stats, they're way too good, we've just created the most broken combo there was, you're not OHKOing either of these pokes (except heatran with a ground move, which Lilibelle takes care of), and since it's grass type, it gains access to sunny day and makes heatran even more powerful
i think we need to change something here guys

CeleTran

these are from a calculator created by x-act, a very well known user on smogon

lol

Physical Tankiness: 247
Special Tankiness: 199
Physical Sweepiness: 73
Special Sweepiness: 113
Offensive/Defensive Balance: -21.74
Physical/Special Balance: 1.14
Overall Rating: 353

what this means that this poke is absurdly good and incredibly defensive, especially on the physical side, it may be a bit overpowered

Stats mean nothing in the big picture. Take a look at Dugtrio's stats. Piss. Poor. Yet he was OU for a long time, and dominates in UU. How about Ninjask? Still a waste of a team member but he's used very often, and has only one non-****ty stat. How about Breloom? Only one stat above 80, that's horrible, mirite? Scizor's BST is equally ****ty, only 500. Who the **** would ever use Scizor, he's useless.

On the other hand, Registeel, Regirock, and Regice all have a BST of 580, which kicks Lilibelle's *** fairly hard.

Lastly, ****ing Smeargle.

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Yeah, something like that.

Libelle isn't broken. It's great, but not broken.

Sunny Day is fine anyway for it.

Yo yreT!

Add Sunny Day and T-Wave to the list.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Bold vote poll going up, continue discussions as is.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Coolio.

But uhhhh...

I don't think there's anything left to discuss....

Unless somebody wants Libelle to have Spore (NEVER)

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Haha. I'd never let that happen. Well it seems Annoying+Mood4Food have something to talk about, so..

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

she can't be toxic'd, and will-o-wisp opens up for heatran

and you're relying on tyranitar too much to take care of this, even he is going to have a tough time with her

she can set up substitute on the switch, use leech seed, then throw out thunderbolts to wittle his health away, or switch out to a ttar counter (something like breloom or scizor)

and she did that with barely any effort

she also ***** all spinners (starmie falls to repeated shadow balls, tentacruel can't take enough thunderbolts, forretress gets ***** by thunderbolt, hitmontop isn't going to deal much damage to Lilibelle, donphan can't take a special hit for his life, blastoise doesn't like tbolt, claydol cannot survive multiple shadowballs, nothing else matters), she is an amazing spinblocker because of this (better than rotom-A is)

her physical bulkiness allows her to come in on almost any physical sweeper, only tyranitar scares her away (thanks to sandstorm, his special defense is absurdly high), everything else is pretty easily handled

her special bulkiness allows her to pretty much come in on any special sweeper not heatran or infernape and proceed to get rid of them, one by one

her special attack lets her deal damage back
she can stall

she just made blissey look...weak

those aren't stats i posted, that was overall effectiveness, it's physical defensive rating is the highest in the game
i think you're underestimating how good high HP is, HP is the most important stat for defense, while no it doesn't take into account abilities nor typing, it still proves a very solid ground point as to which this thing will be a friggen monster

 

[Metal~Mario]

Blissey PP stalls Libelle easily.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Lilibelle is Grass / Ghost, meaning she can be poisoned.

Just wanted to point that out.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

^Immunity, yreT.

 

[mood4food77]

blissey needs flamethrower/ice beam to stall lilibelle, without them, she can't do anything

thunderbolt is doing next to nothing on Lilibelle and seimic toss is going nowhere, all lilibelle needs is a leech seed up and she wins

took latias' stuff, here i'm comparing them to Lilibelle's,

Lilibelle Latias
Physical Sweepiness: 73 143
Physical Tankiness: 247 137
Special Sweepiness: 113 204
Special Tankiness: 199 191
Offense/Defense Balance: -21.74 1.7
Physical/Special Balance: 1.14 -16.73
Overall Rating: 353 380


yes Latias has a better Overall Rating, but that's mostly due to it having much better offensive ability (greater than the difference between defenses)

Here are the Regis:

Regirock Regice Registeel
101 61 81
295 151 223
66 105 86
149 288 219
-31.51 -29.69 -22.32
26.38 -26.4 -0.01
339 334 337

none of the Regis, statistically speaking, are as effective as Lilibelle, Regirock and Regice are better at defending one specific set of attacks (physical or special), but not as good as Lilibelle is at defending the other, Registeel isn't as good at defending physical attacks but is slightly better at defending special attacks. Also, the typings aren't as good (especially not Regirock nor Regice) and that's what kills them, as they are weak to very common types of attacks like fighting, ground (not regice), and fire (not regirock).

also, celebi has a weird typing, it's not bad but it's not good, it's weak to 7 types but resists 6 types, nor is it as bulky at Lilibelle

 

[Metal~Mario]

Doesn't need to completely PP stall Libelle.

Just needs to run out of leech seed.

I just noticed Libelle would be very badly countered by many UU pokes.

Namely Houndoom and Venusaur. Muk, too.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Remember, after SmashCAP 3 there will be a revisions sector that will be undergone in case we feel somethings seem too weak.

That said we need to get our own Shoddy server if possible.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

houndoom yes

venasaur is iffy (why does it learn outrage?) with SD yea, but i can't see without it
muk, with payback, definitely

i think we need further testing but i still feel that this is a little overpowered

 

[Wave⁂]

mood4food, that are you trying to say?

Also, Tery, feel free to continue. I'm just arguing with mood4food over Lilibelle's alleged Uber-broken-leet-ness.

 

[mood4food77]

you do realize Lilibelle is more physically defensive than Lugia and Groudon

Only Steelix, Regirock, Giratina, and Aggron (just barely) have a higher physical defense rating than Lilibelle and outside of Giratina, Lilibelle is much better specially defensive

Lilibelle, like Giratina, is not weak to the 3 big physical attacks, fighting, ground, and rock

Steelix, Regirock, and Aggron are all weak to fighting and ground but resist Rock unlike Lilibelle

Lilibelle is a physical wall that can take special attacks very well, outside of Ubers, only Cresselia and Registeel achieve the overall defensive bulk that Lilibelle receives with worse offense and worse typing

Cresselia is the only other non-uber to be able to achieve 400+ HP, 300+ in both defenses, cresselia has a worse typing and cannot deal as much damage back at the opponents as Lilibelle can, even though it's faster

 

[Metal~Mario]

you do realize Lilibelle is more physically defensive than Lugia and Groudon

Wait, what?!!?

HOLY CRAP

Good thing she's not getting any boosting attack moves.

 

[mood4food77]

yea i did the calc

both Lugia and Groudon are rated at around 230 physical defense
Lilibelle is at 247

Aggron was at 248
Steelix, Regirock, and Giratina are 270+

she pretty much ***** any pure physical wall in the game and does a good job on bronzong (bronzong lacks a recovery move and he can't explode on Lilibelle, earthquake does nothing and Gyro ball isn't doing much since both are slow), but because of this, the calm mind set could could have increased use so it's not walled by Lilibelle

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56781
that's the link for creating your own shoddy server, i would do it but i don't trust myself to maintain it, since i'm on and off that all the time

 

[Wave⁂]

Way to be narrow-minded.

Why should I use Lilibelle instead of Latias, Rotom-A, and Gliscor?

Latias can sweep with Calm Mind, has a much better typing both offensively and defensively. Latias essentially needs two attacks for near-perfect coverage.
Rotom-A can spread burns and paralysis, set up Dual Screens, drain HP with Pain Split, hit hard with STAB Thunderbolt, and sweep with Charge Beam.
Gliscor can Baton Pass Swords Dance and Rock Polish, Taunt to prevent status and phazing, hit with a powerful STAB Earthquake, heal with Roost, set up Stealth Rock, and Knock Off items.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Way to be narrow-minded.

Why should I use Lilibelle instead of Latias, Rotom-A, and Gliscor?

Latias can sweep with Calm Mind, has a much better typing both offensively and defensively. Latias essentially needs two attacks for near-perfect coverage.
Rotom-A can spread burns and paralysis, set up Dual Screens, drain HP with Pain Split, hit hard with STAB Thunderbolt, and sweep with Charge Beam.
Gliscor can Baton Pass Swords Dance and Rock Polish, Taunt to prevent status and phazing, hit with a powerful STAB Earthquake, heal with Roost, set up Stealth Rock, and Knock Off items.

Lilibelle has All statuses except for burn as well as Leech Seed and Aromatherapy.

But I get what you're saying.

 

[mood4food77]

thunderbolt and shadowball has very good coverage

only magnezone, steelix, shiftry, and dialga resist that combination
in OU you're only seeing magnezone

latias is weak to ghost, dragon, ice, dark, and bug attacks while resisting fire, electric, water, grass, fighting, and psychic, while being immune to ground

Lilibelle resists grass, electric, water, ground, and is immune to fighting and normal, it is weak to fire, ice, dark, and ghost attacks

defensively typing isn't that much different, the only big difference between the two is fire as latias resists and Lilbelle is weak to it

offensively, latias wins here, due to being a much more offensive oriented character than lilibelle but lilibelle is bulkier

rotom isn't as bulky as lilibelle, so what if it has pain split, lilibelle gets leech seed, a much more annoying move that helps out the entire team (i'm pretty sure lilibelle can set up dual screens as most ghosts can)

rotom is weak to dark and ghost while resisting electric, flying, bug, and poison, also is immune to ground
typing is definitely not better than lilibelle's

he has more offensive power and gets STAB on t-bolt but lilibelle can take a lot more hits than this thing can

gliscor is not as bulky as lilibelle and has a 4x weakness to ice

gliscor is weak to ice and water, resists fighting, poison, and bug and is immune to electric and ground

typing is not better than lilibelle's, it barely outdamages Lilibelle but has a lot more speed and can BP

those pokes rely on some sort of "boost" to actually outperform lilibelle

here are the perfect type coverage attack types

Ghost or Dark/Fighting
Water/Dragon (only empoleon resists)
Ice/Electric (only lanturn and magnemite family resist)
Ground/Rock (only levitating bronzong, garchomp, and flygon resist)
Flying/Fighting (only rotom and zapdos resist)
Fire/Dragon (only heatran resists)
Fighting/Dragon
Ground/Dragon (only skarmory and levitating bronzong resist)
Electric/Dragon (only steelix and magnemite family resist)

i only took type combos in which 2 or less pokes resisted the combo (magnemite family is counted as 1)

so you got a wide variety of attacks to choose from that many pokes can achieve, it's not a big accomplishment

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Would someone be willing to try and setup a server for us? I would but I'm afraid of my computer haxcrashing and deleting everything so I can't.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

thunderbolt and shadowball has very good coverage

Okay, I'll use Rotom-A

latias is weak to [...]
Lilibelle resists [...]
defensively typing isn't that much different, the only big difference between the two is fire as latias resists and Lilbelle is weak to it

In a metagame where Dragon- and Steel-type Pokemon dominate, this is HUGELY important.

rotom isn't as bulky as lilibelle, so what if it has pain split, lilibelle gets leech seed, a much more annoying move that helps out the entire team (i'm pretty sure lilibelle can set up dual screens as most ghosts can)

Leech Seed is inaccurate. Leech Seed heals over time, time that Lilibelle does not have when staring down a Choice Band Tyranitar. Pain Split heals more HP and deals more damage in the short term, and can kill when combined with residual damage (Rotom's Will-o-Wisp).

rotom is weak to dark and ghost while resisting electric, flying, bug, and poison, also is immune to ground
typing is definitely not better than lilibelle's

You forgot Steel.
How can you forget Steel.
If Rotom did not resist Steel, he would be UU.
Also Fighting

he has more offensive power and gets STAB on t-bolt but lilibelle can take a lot more hits than this thing can

Thank you, Captain Obvious. You point?

[Gliscor's] typing is not better than lilibelle's

Prove it.

those pokes rely on some sort of "boost" to actually outperform lilibelle

Kay. And?

here are the perfect type coverage attack types

Ghost or Dark/Fighting
Water/Dragon (only empoleon resists)
Ice/Electric (only lanturn and magnemite family resist)
Ground/Rock (only levitating bronzong, garchomp, and flygon resist)
Flying/Fighting (only rotom and zapdos resist)
Fire/Dragon (only heatran resists)
Fighting/Dragon
Ground/Dragon (only skarmory and levitating bronzong resist)
Electric/Dragon (only steelix and magnemite family resist)

i only took type combos in which 2 or less pokes resisted the combo (magnemite family is counted as 1)

so you got a wide variety of attacks to choose from that many pokes can achieve, it's not a big accomplishment

How is this relevant? Also, by your strange filtering system, Quake Edge should be removed. Also, Claydol. Also, Normal / Water. Also, Toxicroak resists Dark / Fighting. Also, Chomp doesn't resist Quake Edge.

 

[mood4food77]

i think you're underestimating how bulky lilibelle is

ONLY 4 POKES HAVE A HIGHER PHYSICAL DEFENSIVE RATING THAN LILIBELLE

regirock, steelix, giratina, and aggron

now, let's compare lilibelle to those 4 pokes

lilibelle has a much better defensive typing against physical attacks than regirock, steelix, and aggron have

Giratina has the better typing (dragon/ghost is just...ridonkulous) and more HP

i made a couple mistakes with the attack combos but i got most of it right

here is a damage calc, i'm using standard Rotom-H as that is the most common rotom set

Choice Band Tyranitar using Crunch:

On Lilibelle: 74.4%-87.9% Easily a 2HKO, leech said doesn't help here
On Rotom-A: 106.6%-126.3% Gaurenteed OHKO

Rotom's advantage here is that he outruns Ttar while Lilibelle doesn't on my set, but Lilibelle has a higher base speed, so we can actually change the EVs around to outspeed bandtar

more calcs?

Scarftar Crunch
On Lilibelle: 45.7%-53.8% A 3HKO when leech seed is out
On Rotom-A: 65.1%-77% Gaurenteed 2HKO

DDtar:
No boost:
Lilibelle: 49.8%-59.2% A 3HKO if leech seed is out (Rarely a 2HKO, SS is in play still)
Rotom-A: 71.7%-84.9% Easily a 2HKO

+1 ATK:
Lilibelle: 74.4%-87.9% 2HKO no doubt
Rotom-A:106.6%-126.3% OHKO

+2 ATK:
Lilibelle: 98.7%-117% Has a chance to 2HKO but pretty much a OHKO
Rotom-A: 142.1%-167.8% That's a OHKO

Lilibelle can stand up to TTar a lot better than rotom can and Lilibelle can hit it with STAB Energy Balls if it wanted to, no it's not doing much damage but it's more than Rotom-A can do, unless it uses Leafstorm but it's still 2HKO'd and Lilibelle will deal more damage in the long run to Ttar

using Rotom-A over Lilibelle is dumb when Lilibelle can be more effective at helping putting down ttar than Rotom-A can
changing Rotom sets didn't help either, the best it can do is use substitute to try and stall ttar, it also cannot switch into ttar at all

Rotom-H is a better spin blocker due to having heat wave and a stab tbolt to take care of any spinner, but that's okay, Lilibelle does a great job anyways

Lilibelle is a friggen tank, taking tyranitar's crunch, quite possibly the strongest dark move in the game, and on some sets making as much as a 3HKO, not even some pokemon who take neutral damage can do that

 

[Metal~Mario]

Lilibelle is a friggen tank, taking tyranitar's crunch, quite possibly the strongest dark move in the game, and on some sets making as much as a 3HKO, not even some pokemon who take neutral damage can do that

I thought Darkrai's Dark Pulse was the strongest Dark move in the game.

But I see what you're saying.

Well, looks like we've made an UBER acc. to Mood4Food.

 

[Wave⁂]

Why are your posts formatted so awkardly? It's annoying formatting them so it looks decent in my replies.

i think you're underestimating how bulky lilibelle is
ONLY 4 POKES HAVE A HIGHER PHYSICAL DEFENSIVE RATING THAN LILIBELLE
regirock, steelix, giratina, and aggron

Again, Stats don't mean **** in the long run. Ask Slaking and Regigigas and their BST of 670.
Also, Blissey is more specially defensive than Lilibelle is physically defensive.

now, let's compare lilibelle to those 4 pokes

You already did that.

lilibelle has a much better defensive typing against physical attacks than regirock, steelix, and aggron have

No shi t.

i made a couple mistakes with the attack combos but i got most of it right

It's still incredibly irrelevant.

here is a damage calc, i'm using standard Rotom-H as that is the most common rotom set

What is it?

Choice Band Tyranitar using Crunch:
On Lilibelle: 74.4%-87.9% Easily a 2HKO, leech said doesn't help here
On Rotom-A: 106.6%-126.3% Gaurenteed OHKO

Rotom-A's +1 HP Fighting against standard ScarfTar: 72.5% - 85.4%

Rotom's advantage here is that he outruns Ttar while Lilibelle doesn't on my set, but Lilibelle has a higher base speed, so we can actually change the EVs around to outspeed bandtar

Rotom-A can also dump all of its EVs into HP and defense and go Bold. Placing any of Lilibelle's EVs in Speed means less defense.

Scarftar Crunch
On Lilibelle: 45.7%-53.8% A 3HKO when leech seed is out
On Rotom-A: 65.1%-77% Gaurenteed 2HKO
DDtar:
No boost:
Lilibelle: 49.8%-59.2% A 3HKO if leech seed is out (Rarely a 2HKO, SS is in play still)
Rotom-A: 71.7%-84.9% Easily a 2HKO
+1 ATK:
Lilibelle: 74.4%-87.9% 2HKO no doubt
Rotom-A:106.6%-126.3% OHKO
+2 ATK:
Lilibelle: 98.7%-117% Has a chance to 2HKO but pretty much a OHKO
Rotom-A: 142.1%-167.8% That's a OHKO
Lilibelle can stand up to TTar a lot better than rotom can and Lilibelle can hit it with STAB Energy Balls if it wanted to, no it's not doing much damage but it's more than Rotom-A can do, unless it uses Leafstorm but it's still 2HKO'd and Lilibelle will deal more damage in the long run to Ttar

It's a good thing Tyranitar is the only Pokemon in OU.
Oh wait

using Rotom-A over Lilibelle is dumb when Lilibelle can be more effective at helping putting down ttar than Rotom-A can
changing Rotom sets didn't help either, the best it can do is use substitute to try and stall ttar, it also cannot switch into ttar at all
Rotom-H is a better spin blocker due to having heat wave and a stab tbolt to take care of any spinner, but that's okay, Lilibelle does a great job anyways
Lilibelle is a friggen tank, taking tyranitar's crunch, quite possibly the strongest dark move in the game, and on some sets making as much as a 3HKO, not even some pokemon who take neutral damage can do that

Hm... something here doesn't seem right.

using Rotom-A over Lilibelle is dumb
Rotom-H is a better spin blocker

...okay...

Lilibelle is a friggen tank

Lilibelle is NOT a tank, she is a wall.

taking tyranitar's crunch, quite possibly the strongest dark move in the game, and on some sets making as much as a 3HKO, not even some pokemon who take neutral damage can do that

Yeah, since Machop is OHKOed by Tyranitar's Crunch, Lilibelle should be Uber.

Also, you have conveniently forgotten about Gliscor and Latias.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Alright guys, I've let this gone on to see where this would lead, and it's better saved for the Counters Discussion thread. Please continue your discussion there.

Spire, if you could please.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

now that will-o-wisp is one of Lilibelle's moves

it can come in on a nonbanded tyranitar non-boosted Ttar and hit it with will-o-wisp
rotom cannot acheive this

what i meant about the spin blocker, Rotom-A serves it's purpose as a spin blocker better than Lilibelle does but Lilibelle can do everything else better while being a great Spin Blocker

Rotom-H is the best Spin Blocker in the game specifically because it hits all 4 spinners for SE damage (Starmie and Tentacruel with STAB Tbolt and Forretress with Overheat). Lilibelle will counter these 4 pokes, maybe not as bad as Rotom-H, but still a pretty darn good job.

when the counter thread is up, i'll post more damage calcs

here is the calculator i'm using: http://www.smogon.com/calc/

The standard Rotom set is this:

Rotom-H@leftovers
Bold
252/168/88 (HP/DEF/SPE)
Thunderbolt/Discharge
Shadowball/HP Fighting
Overheat
Will-o-Wisp/Reflect

Rotom-H does better against Scizor due to resisting Bullet punch (but damage difference isn't that great) and having access to Overheat.
Tyranitar i explained above, Lilibelle wins
Lilibelle and Rotom-H both die at the same rate against Salemence, they both pretty much fail to do much here unless Salamence switches in on them, even
About the same against Heatran, but Lilibelle will survive better against non-fire moves while Rotom-H hits Heatran harder with STAB tbolt, it's roughly the same, i'll give Rotom the edge due to being immune to earth power (it's a slight edge, with Leech Seed out, Lilibelle actually heals life over time if heatran is locked into Earth Power)
Latias, roughly the same, they take roughly the same %s, Lilibelle survives against any move but HP-fire better than Rotom does, but less than 20% of all Latias run that, so i give the edge to Lilibelle here (Rotom wins if Latias is carrying HP fire of course)
Against Gyarados, Lilibelle wins here, if leech seed is out, Stone Edge fails to net a 2HKO on lilibelle even after a +2 boost, her Tbolt may not OHKO but she will always win (it's not a gaurenteed OHKO but it can OHKO when accounting for life orb damage), Rotom cannot switch in on a +1 ATK/SPE gyarados and expect to live (gyarados pretty much has to hit Rotom with min damage both times and that's with Stone Edge, Waterfall is a gaurenteed 2HKO), Lilibelle wins here
Jirachi, Rotom wins due to not being weak to fire, but not by much
Metagross, Rotom wins, resisting it's main moveset, lilibelle doesn't resist bullet punch, so slight edge to Rotom
Gengar, Lilibelle wins here, Rotom is always OHKO'd by standard gengar, Lilibelle is never OHKO'd by Gengar's shadow ball (only on a specs modest set when taking into account SR or Spike damage), no contest (it also helps that Lilibelle can OHKO gengar on a switch in when taking SR damage into account)
Swampert, lilibelle wins here, it's a no brainer if she runs Energy ball, Rotom-C is the only rotom who does as good of a job as Lilibelle does, Lilibelle wins but it is pretty much tied with Rotom-C
lucario, Lilibelle wins, she is barely 3HKO'd by an unboosted crunch even when SR damage is accounted for, Rotom is always 2HKO'd
Rotom-H, If Lilibelle comes in on the Choice set and overheat is in use, she roughly 2HKO'd (with SR damage, it's gaurenteed, but without it's really iffy), other than that, she doesn't take as much damage as Rotom does, but i give rotom the advantage for not being weak to overheat
Starmie, Lilibelle wins, she takes next to nothing from surf nor thunderbolt and can hit back with either stab Energy Balls, Stab Shadow Balls, or tbolts, Rotom is a safer choice against the specs set but if Lilibelle comes in on anything but ice beam, she wins (even though starmie fails to 2HKO either poke) but rotom can OHKO starmie without having to hope for max damage and take SR into account with his Tbolt
Blissey, they roughly do the same but both need Will-o-Wisp/Toxic to have any hope, i'm giving the edge to Lilibelle because of Leech Seed, without it, she would probably get stalled
Gliscor, i'm going to say Rotom wins but only because it's immune to earthquake instead of being resisted (even though Lilibelle isn't taking much from it), he also can hurt gliscor slightly more with his shadowballs than lilibelle can, it's a very slight advantage to Gliscor
Azelf, Lilibelle wins, she is is rarely ever 2HKO'd, only a choiced flamethrower gaurentees it, Rotom dies to 2 psychics from any set

that's how they do against the pokes used more than 10% of the time

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Alright guys, I've let this gone on to see where this would lead, and it's better saved for the Counters Discussion thread. Please continue your discussion there.

Spire, if you could please.

-Terywj

Mood4Food. Please read this post. Take further discussions to the already existing Counters Discussion thread.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

sorry, i posted this before i saw the counter thread
this post took me forever

 

[Terywj [태리]]

sorry, i posted this before i saw the counter thread
this post took me forever

Alrighty, don't worry about it. I just wanted to make sure you saw the post.

I really need to be able to close things... T__T

-Terywj