SmashCAP 2: Non-Offensive Move Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

[SmashCAP 2]
Start date: 1/30/10
End date:--/--/--
Concept: Type Representation
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Ability: Shield Dust / Immunity
Stats: 121 / 55 / 127 / 90 / 103 / 64
Name: Lilbelle

Allowed Offensive Moves - Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Solarbeam, Shadow Sneak, Sludge Bomb, Night Shade, Thunderbolt, Air Cutter, Seed Bomb

Basically, discuss all competitive non-attacking / support moves you think SmashCAP 2 should or shouldn't have, and EXPLAIN in your post as to why. Flavor posts should be ignored for now.

To make it easier for the whole of the community...please submit moves for the following 3 categories: "allowed," "controversial," and "unallowed."

Allowed
Toxic
Leech Seed
Stun Spore
Sleep Powder
Hypnosis
Spite
Grudge
Worry Seed
Memento
Skill Swap
Trick
Destiny Bond
Embargo
Cotton Spore
Confuse Ray
Pain Split
Mean Look
Trick Room
Aromatherapy
Torment
Synthesis
Will-o-Wisp

Controversial

Unallowed
Swords Dance
Ingrain
Taunt
Growth

Provided by Deck Knight from Smogon, here's a link to a helpful page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1923214&postcount=34

With the conclusion of these, the Counters Discussion will prove more effective once we understand what moves SmashCAP 2 will possess.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Aight.

Allowed:

Toxic
Leech Seed
Stun Spore
Sleep Powder
Hypnosis (lol)
Spite
Grudge
Worry Seed
Memento
Taunt
Torment
Skill Swap
Trick
Destiny Bond
Embargo (more lol)
Cotton Spore (even more lol)
Confuse Ray
Pain Split
Mean Look
Growth
Synthesis

Controversial:

Trick Room
WoW
Swords Dance
Aromatherapy
Ingrain

Unallowed:

Spore

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Will-o-Wisp should be allowed since SmashCAP 2 is part Ghost-type so it makes sense.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Not when it conflicts with its other type.

Ya'know, like Froslass....

 

[mood4food77]

it should definitely have aromatherapy and ingrain

and...flamethrower

 

[Terywj [태리]]

'Cuz Flamethrower is totally a non-offensive move.

Aromatherapy makes sense. Ingrain, ehh.

-Terywj

 

[WouW]

It shouldn't have Growth, that's more reserved for more plantlike Pokés.

I have my doubts on Taunt and Torment, too, because it doesn't really look intimidating to me.

 

[Metal~Mario]

it should definitely have aromatherapy and ingrain

and...flamethrower

Here's an idea:

Aromatherapy for allowed, but on a different breeding chain than (and therefore illegal with) Synthesis.

 

[Circa]

Aromatherapy and Trick Room should be allowed. Aromatherapy makes complete sense aesthetically, and is an extremely good way for Lilibelle to support her team outside of inflicting status and Leech Seed. Trick Room is something else that Lilibelle would be an amazing user of, and I personally don't see its inclusion on her as anything near broken.

WoW might be a little much though. I think there's a reason that Cressy wasn't given the move, and I believe it's probably the same reason why we should be wary of giving it to Lilibelle. I say controversial is a good spot for now.

EDIT2: Ingrain for unallowed. That could end up being really ****ing ridiculous.

SD for unallowed, because I see no point for it to have the move. It doesn't really make sense.

EDIT: @MM: Synthesis is a very shaky form of healing in OU, and you probably wouldn't ever want to use it on a set that wasn't Sunny Day. Cressy is a prime example of this.

EDIT3: Calm Mind should be added to the list as a controversial move. I could see it having moveslot issues with everything it has anyway, so I don't think it'd be broken by any means. But I'll let others decide.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Ingrain+SD or Growth is Illegal?

And allow Ingrain by itself?

 

[mood4food77]

wait a tic

where's sunny day? this thing is crying for sunny day

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We can worry about making stuff illegal later, for now just focus on weeding out what should be definite, what should be maybes, and what shouldn't be at all.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

Unallow isn't a word.

Disallow: Swords Dance, Taunt, and Growth.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Whatever, man. I don't do good in Engrish.

Swords Dance should be unallowed? How so?

-Terywj

 

[WouW]

Swords Dance doesn't really fit its appearance. Swords Dance users usually look fierce.

 

[Circa]

Despite what WouW said about Torment, I think it should be allowed. It's basically a guaranteed move for ghosts, due to the viewpoint on how a ghost acts. The only way I think Lilibelle wouldn't get it is if she looked like Casper, and she obviously doesn't.

Plus a TormentBelle set might be interesting to see.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's true, but Bellossom and Ledian both have it, don't they?

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Plus a TormentBelle set might be interesting to see.

You mean like TormenTran?

 

[Circa]

You mean like TormenTran?

Yes, only it's bulkier and slower than Heatran, and works against different things. It could also Leech Seed while using Torment, which would be so fun and utterly ridiculous that...yeah. I think you get the point. If we EVER get a server up and this gets Torment, I'm making that set. No questions asked.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Yes, only it's bulkier and slower than Heatran, and works against different things. It could also Leech Seed while using Torment, which would be so fun and utterly ridiculous that...yeah. I think you get the point. If we EVER get a server up and this gets Torment, I'm making that set. No questions asked.

I thought TormentTran worked so well because of the fact that only 3 common moves in OU can break his subs(EQ, Surf, and CC/Superpower).

Whereas Libelle has Fire, Ice, Ghost, and Dark weaknesses-4 common moves to break its subs. Wouldn't it be harder to pull off because of that?

 

[Circa]

Kind of. Thing is though, apart from I believe Zapdos (HP Ice variants) and certain Tyranitar, nothing carries more than one of those typings on the same set. I'll have to look into it a bit further, but I believe I'm pretty much right. The biggest issue past this is making Lilibelle bulky enough to be able to take powerful hits from stuff like Salamence. That would actually be her biggest issue.

So yeah, it probably wouldn't be as viable. I'd still try it out though.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

So are we cool with the Controversial list? If so I can get the bold vote poll up.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

HP Ice Infernape
Rotom-H
Porygon-Z
HP Ice Heatran
Virtually all Gengar
Skarmory (Drill Peck + Whirlwind)
Machamp (Ice Punch + Payback)
Jolteon (Shadow Ball + HP Ice)
Electivire

Oops.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

HP Ice Infernape
Rotom-H
Porygon-Z
HP Ice Heatran
Virtually all Gengar
Skarmory (Drill Peck + Whirlwind)
Machamp (Ice Punch + Payback)
Jolteon (Shadow Ball + HP Ice)
Electivire

Oops.

So I'm guessing you're undecided..

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

I take back Heatran and Jolteon since they're usually Choiced.

Also, no, I did decide. I was too lazy to do a list of allowed moves before.
Allow: Torment

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Well everyone's split on Torment which is why it's Controversial.

I mean have you decided that the Controversial list should be voted on.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

HP Ice Infernape
Rotom-H
Porygon-Z
HP Ice Heatran
Virtually all Gengar
Skarmory (Drill Peck + Whirlwind)
Machamp (Ice Punch + Payback)
Jolteon (Shadow Ball + HP Ice)
Electivire

Oops.

Thanks for posting the extras I guess? Luckily I quit OU, so I don't feel like a COMPLETE ******* for not remembering this stuff. :3

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The extras won't be fueling our choosing of having the poll up today or tomorrow although it's probably going to be tomorrow.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

sunny day

come on, this thing can make sunny day actually viable

 

[Wave⁂]

Wait, did we give this girl Weather Ball?

 

[mood4food77]

this thing will make sunny day viable in OU

there is nothing that learns sunny day (outside of groudon) that is as bulky as this thing

sunny day, synthesis, solarbeam, leech seed

talk about the stupidity of that set

 

[Wave⁂]

there is nothing that learns sunny day (outside of groudon) that is as bulky as this thing

Blissey Snorlax Giratina Cresselia Arceus Regigigas Shuckle Regirock Steelix Bastiodon Deoxys-D Forrestress Skarmory Dusknoir Lugia Uxie Leafeon Tangrowth Weezing Donphan Hippowdon Bronzong Slowbro Slowking Ho-Oh Registeel Umbreon Latias Articuno Claydol Palkia.

I'd say half of those are better in terms of defensive stats. And probably 75% of them are better in terms of typing.

 

[mood4food77]

we have 121/127/103 defensive stats, none of those pokes have as good overall defensive stats as this does, nor the typing

this type can come in on a lot of moves since it's immune to normal and fighting moves while resisting ground, electric, water, and grass moves, it's weak to flying, ice, fire, dark, and ghost moves which outside of ice and fire moves, aren't too common outside of stab (even fire is rare outside of stab, but it's much more common than the other types)

it's bulky enough that SE hits aren't going to deal a lot of damage (probably 60% most non-boosted), this thing is not getting OHKO'd and it's typing is much better than almost all the pokes you listed

let's go through your list

blissey: it's the best wall in the game, hands down, no argument, but OHKO'd by physical fighting attacks
snorlax: takes a lot of damage from physical attacks and is very often OHKO'd by physical fighting attacks
Giratina: Uber, not discussed
Cresselia: Probably a little better defensively but not as good offensively and it's typing is crap compared to Lilibelle
Arceus: Uber, not talking about it
Regigigas: not as bulky as this thing is, also with a worse typing
Shuckle: not as bulky as one may think, HP really kills it, in SS it's a ***** but other than that, it's not bulky
Regirock: Not as bulky with a much worse typing
Steelix: not as bulky overall, takes physical hits better but taking special hits much, much worse than Lilibelle
Bastiodon: Typing screws this guy over completely
Deoxys-D: Ubers, not discussed
Forretress: Lilibelle takes special attacks MUCH better than this circle does, but typing gives Forrey the advantage, physically
Skarmory: best physical wall in the game, but Lilibelle takes special hits much better than Skarm does
Dusknoir: Crap HP means Lilibelle is bulkier than Dusknoir (when defenses are that similar)
Lugia: Uber, not discussing
Uxie: Much worse typing, worse defensive stats and worse HP, Lilibelle wins here
Lefeon: Pure grass as a typing sucks, HP not as good and neither is special defense
Tangrowth: cannot take special attacks to save his life and pure grass is a bad type
Weezing: Lilibelle takes special hits better and having more HP makes it better than Weezing
Donphan: pretty much the same reason as Weezing, also Lilibelle has a better typing
Hippowdon: Lilibelle has a better typing and better defensive stats in every category, Lilibelle wins here
Bronzong: Bronzong wins defensively due to typing but Lilibelle has offensive capabilities to take advantage of
Slowbro: Lilibelle has better defensive stats with a better typing
Slowking: same as slowbro
Ho-oh: Uber, not discussing
Registeel: Higer HP allows Lilibelle to survive better, Lilibelle has a better typing
Umbreon: Lilibelle's HP makes it bulkier than Umbreon
Latias: Better HP and better defense make Lilibelle a more well-rounded wall than Latias, but Latias is more annoying
Articuno: Lilibelle wins the typing award by a lot, Articuno gets ***** by SR
Claydol: this thing can't deal damage and Lilibelle has better defensive stats
Palkia: Uber, not discussing


so basically, it's a definitive OU poke with possibly only Snorlax, Blissey, and Bronzong being better defensively, Ubers don't count as they're broken, but Lilibelle's HP can make it bulkier than Bronzong and it actually can outstall both snorlax and blissey

we may have to change the stats, it might be too good
yea it's BTS is 560, that's a tad bit too high, nothing should be higher than Arcanine, we gotta lower one of the stats not named attack or speed

i hope you guys realize that Lilibelle is the absolute perfect partner for heatran and vice versa
whatever heatran is weak to, Lilibelle resists AND whatever Lilibelle is weak too, heatran resists
we have to change the stats, they're way too good, we've just created the most broken combo there was, you're not OHKOing either of these pokes (except heatran with a ground move, which Lilibelle takes care of), and since it's grass type, it gains access to sunny day and makes heatran even more powerful
i think we need to change something here guys

these are from a calculator created by x-act, a very well known user on smogon
here is the calculator: http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/BaseStatsRatings.html
here is the explanation: http://www.smogon.com/cap/articles/stat_ratings#stats

Physical Tankiness: 247
Special Tankiness: 199
Physical Sweepiness: 73
Special Sweepiness: 113
Offensive/Defensive Balance: -21.74
Physical/Special Balance: 1.14
Overall Rating: 353

what this means that this poke is absurdly good and incredibly defensive, especially on the physical side, it may be a bit overpowered

 

[Metal~Mario]

i hope you guys realize that Lilibelle is the absolute perfect partner for heatran and vice versa
whatever heatran is weak to, Lilibelle resists AND whatever Lilibelle is weak too, heatran resists

Ttar screws with them both rather comfortably.

 

[UltiMario]

Not if this thing gets WoW.
It can also carry HP Fighting to put a fairly decent dent in TTar while it wouldn't do to much back being burned and all.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Not if this thing gets WoW.
It can also carry HP Fighting to put a fairly decent dent in TTar while it wouldn't do to much back being burned and all.

Which is why I don't want it to get WoW this time.

Plus, like Froslass, its secondary type is weak to Fire; thus preventing knowledge of WoW.

 

[mood4food77]

but now you're talking about having to run Ttar in order to defeat these making every team essentially:

Heatran
Lilibelle
Tyranitar
filler
filler
filler

you're talking about 3 pokemon being used on almost every team which is easy to take care of

Azelf
Scizor
Tyranitar
Lilibelle
Heatran
Salamence

try stopping that team, go ahead, the only thing possible is gyarados and it is not going to be doing that great against Lilibelle

 

[Metal~Mario]

^What?

I don't get what you're saying.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Weather Ball will go under Allowed.

Bold vote poll will go up at 4. If you want to add another move to the list, do so soon.

-Terywj

 

[mood4food77]

i'm saying that Lilibelle is way too good, we have to change it stats or something
it will break the game

it has more bulk than almost any poke excluding Ubers
it doesn't matter what movepool it has, this thing is never going to die, it's a grass type so it's getting some healing move, outside of Uber pokemon, rarely is anything more than 3HKO'd, this thing is going to be like a 4HKO standard

we gotta change something about Lilibelle, it's way too broken