SmashCAP 2: Counters Discussion

[Metal~Mario]

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aight. Now that the moveset is final, counters can begin to form.

Moveset:

Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Shadow Ball
Solarbeam
Shadow Sneak
Sludge Bomb
Night Shade
Thunderbolt
Air Cutter
Seed Bomb

&

Toxic
Leech Seed
Stun Spore
Sleep Powder
Hypnosis
Spite
Grudge
Worry Seed
Memento
Skill Swap
Trick
Destiny Bond
Embargo
Cotton Spore
Confuse Ray
Pain Split
Mean Look
Trick Room
Aromatherapy
Torment
Synthesis
Will-o-Wisp

Needless to say, Lilibelle has quite a bag of goodies.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Annoying and Mood4Food can take their past discussion here as to avoid conflict with the original thread.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

Cool.

Taunt.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Houndoom/Muk/Venusaur are counters.

Honchkrow works too.

All counters need Taunt or Aromatherapy to deal with status.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Although all of those won't enjoy coming in on respective status. Houndom - Paralyze, Muk - Burn, Venusaur - Burn / Paralyze, Honchkrow - Burn.

Blissey is by far the surest check, with Natural Cure of course.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Blissey hates Leech Seed.

Blissey also needs Ice Beam or Flamethrower to ever beat it. Although most sets run one of these, those that don't are susceptible to PP stall.

If Altaria knew a good flying move it would counter Lilibelle pretty badly.

Really, though. Nothing is safe from every status in the game+Leech Seed.

 

[mood4food77]

nothing is OHKOing lilibelle without any boosts

heck, even a +2 attack ttar using crunch isn't a gaurenteed OHKO (but it's 98,7-~110, so it's a pretty moot point)

this thing is a friggen wall, it pretty much is skarmbliss in one poke

even with flamethrower or ice beam, blissey is dealing ~22% max to Lilibelle, easily recovered off by using leech seed and leftovers, will-o-wisp will get the job done faster

this thing walls almost every good physical attacker, it's not even funny

 

[Metal~Mario]

nothing is OHKOing lilibelle without any boosts

heck, even a +2 attack ttar using crunch isn't a gaurenteed OHKO (but it's 98,7-~110, so it's a pretty moot point)

this thing is a friggen wall, it pretty much is skarmbliss in one poke

even with flamethrower or ice beam, blissey is dealing ~22% max to Lilibelle, easily recovered off by using leech seed and leftovers, will-o-wisp will get the job done faster

this thing walls almost every good physical attacker, it's not even funny

How about Arcanine?

STAB Flare Blitz and immunity to Burn.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

nothing is OHKOing lilibelle without any boosts

Depends on how Lilibelle's EV spread is looking.

heck, even a +2 attack ttar using crunch isn't a gaurenteed OHKO (but it's 98,7-~110, so it's a pretty moot point)

That's a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

Hey guess what!??!?!

Lilibelle just increased viability of Sunny Day.

A LOT of Fire types can KO Lillibelle with favorable weather, an item boost, and SR.

 

[mood4food77]

try getting past

Substitute
Shadow Ball/Sleep Powder
Leech Seed
Will-o-Wisp

like seriously, it subs turn 1, it can either seed or wisp the opponent turn 2, then use the other move turn 3, then launch shadow balls to wittle their HP down
heck, it doesn't even need shadow ball, it can Sleep Powder one counter, then wisp the rest of the team there aren't many pokes that run guts in OU

actually, only 6 pokes get guts (Hariyama, Heracross, Machamp, Raticate, Swellow, and Ursaring) and Lilibelle is immune to their Stab, i could see and increased usage of Guts Machamp as it is slower than Lilibelle, which means double the power on Payback, and using guts means it's going to have like 500 attack, but if Lilibelle doesn't have an attack, it's a fairly low base power move

infernape and heatran do a good job on lilibelle

Running Calm (+SP.DEF, -ATK) as her nature, she can run this EV spread

248/124/96/42 (HP/SP.DEF/DEF/SP.ATK)

It gives her 445 HP, 314 DEF, 300 SP.DEF, and 226 SP. ATK
giving her an odd number allows 4 livable switch-ins to SR and allows 4 substitutes with a crap load of HP

there is no reason to run max defenses as adding EVs to special attack is more beneficial in the long run but running just enough to have 300 special defense is key

i also said that it was a moot point that ttar's +2 crunch isn't a OHKO since that didn't take into account any outside damage

infernape's fire blast under Sunshine is definitely a OHKO (it does 115.1% minimum), that's the nasty plot set, lead ape does 89%-105.2% which is barely a OHKO

Heatran has a guaranteed OHKO with fire blast

DDmence is not OHKOing Lilibelle without any boosts
Classic Mixmence does 87.6%-103.4%, OHKO with SR
New Mixmence does 79.6%-93.9%, rare OHKO with SR, otherwise not
Mixed Dancer does 80%-94.4%, rare OHKO with SR, not too shabby
BandMence is not OHKOing Lilibelle, neither is Scarfmence
Specsmence does 101.6%-119.6%, tha'ts a OHKO
FatMence can't even 2HKO Lilibelle with flamethrower
and the Ubers set is a 2HKO

Latias with HP fire fails to even net a 2HKO on the offensive calm mind set
Specs set is a guarenteed 2HKO, not too bad

that's about the only guys with special fire moves since physical ones are not going to do the job, so basically, it needs to be STAB to 100% ensure a OHKO

muk is not a counter, it's almost a 4HKO (even with SR in play), but that's pretty much a stall war as Lilibelle can't 5HKO Muk but can burn muk, giving her the advantage here (doesn't matter which bulky set Muk runs, results vary slightly)

 

[mood4food77]

come on guys, no counter talk?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I need to get the spriters running too. I apologize for lagging behind.

-Terywj

 

[Metal~Mario]

^ I thought we got them all.

Really.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Got all of them for what? Spriters? Hardly.

Counters? I believe Annoying and Mood4Food covered everything.

-Terywj