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SmashCAP 1: Stat Distribution Discussion

Terywj [태리]

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Please discuss all forms of ideas for SmashCAP 1's stat distribution. Stat spread submissions are also welcome, but I ask that those be saved for later, until after general discussions.
Of course, if you already have a well thought-out stat spread, feel free to share it with the community. :D
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Acknowledge the following about SmashCAP 1:

Concept: Bulky-Offense Counter / Anti-Bulky-Offense

Typing:: Water / Ground

Ability: Levitate / Unaware

Artwork: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258490
--
Remember to follow the rules and HERE WE GO!

-Terywj
 
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HP: 83 307 370
Att: 65 149 166 229 251
Def: 100 212 236 299 328
SpA: 110 230 256 319 350
SpD: 100 212 236 299 328
Spe: 82 180 200 263 289
BST: 540

So far as bulky offense is concerned, the best place to start is the overall picture. I chose a standard base 540 as a 3rd evolution as something that will easily fit into the top 25 of OU, but not necessarily he top 5, which is a happy medium that I was shooting for.

Hitting a key speed tier, I chose 82 such that it can outspeed base 80s and 81s (gyarados/milotic). gyarados is important, being probably the most used bulky offense pokemon, and the ability to wall the rock/ground attack combination is invaluable. We also have a handy advantage on the many, many base 70s and the many pokemon that simply do not invest in speed at all on the basis that water/ground effectively walls the **** out of steel, ground, and other commonly used moves on slow pokemon. The few that do outspeed CAP and hit neutral keep the pokemon from being the panacea from OU (balance is important here) but are also commonly scarfed and are thus choice lock bait for CAP. Think about how screwed scarftran is vs this thing on the revenge turn. Stuff like that.

Moving to defenses, mathematically speaking, base defense for each stat is worth more than HP. The ideal way to maximize defenses on a generic spread is to make def + spD = HP. Since we need to wall both spectrums equally, I chose to make the base defenses higher than HP to give additional defense to a solid defensive base of 283. The numbers should make themselves obvious at this point. 328 def and 370 HP on a water/ground is no joke. being able to mimic that for spe def is so good that it may increase the use of grass knot more....but not too much. again, balance is pivotal. I'm also shooting for the weight to be in the range to make grass knot 100 base power. With heavy investment, that's enough to live an unboosted grass knot from a generic attacker and retaliate accordingly, but still not enough to make the pokemon threatening for the next turn.

Offensively, most of OU are relatively weaker in their spe def than their def. Given a base 110SpA and stab water/ground, CAP1 can be an extremely effective BO pokemon itself while having the means to put holes in stall teams or even to take down pokemon in heavy offense. Att is ignored to keep CAP1 from being too dangerous in any given situation. However, it's not necessarily a weakness since we can choose to use whirlwind/roar later. It just requires some brains to play. Again, all about balance. Still, Specs Surf/Hydro Pump/ Earth Power from this thing will wreck.

As an overall picture, my second goal with this spread is such that this pokemon, given an average movepool can do almost anything. It can use a scarf or specs, go completely bulky, somewhere inbetween, or take on a role as a utility pokemon or lead WHILE being able to fight any given stat spread. It solidly counters hippowdon, tyranitar, metagross, mamoswine, infernape, heatran, just tons of useful pokemon, and isn't particularly bad against many pokemon. Even ice beam will hurt an incoming celebi, which are usually def based to handle gyarados instead of spe def based. I think this stat spread hits everything spot-on.

edit: I initially wanted water absorb and levitate so it can answer to gyarados. Without water absorb, CAP1 loses to the stab water attacks and can't function as a BO counter as well, gyarados being the most played BO pokemon.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Would it be reasonable to give your spread a few more special attack to make it pose more of a threat?

Although I do like what you've thought up.

-Terywj
 

UltiMario

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My only problem with I have Umbreon's is that he is countering Bulky Offense WITH Bulky offense.
Which means this Pokemon could be used for BO, making your life even harder, rather than lower its use.
 
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give it grass knot.

and I'd really like to keep it 540 or under.
 
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I'm good with my proposed stat base. you guys are supposed to make your own proposals, not modify mine >_>
 

Spire

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We don't have to necessarily make our own. Remember, it's a community project, and if the community agrees on a certain thing, isn't that good?

-Terywj
Well in the initial stages of stat discussion, if there's a desire to make your own - even of the slightest - then you should. The more entries, the more to analyze. Works out in the end.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Well in the initial stages of stat discussion, if there's a desire to make your own - even of the slightest - then you should. The more entries, the more to analyze. Works out in the end.
I know, I was just explaining why I was agreeing. I stated before that I'm not good with spreads so I merely suggested some changes.

I dunno about everyone else though. :p

-Terywj
 

Spire

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I know, I was just explaining why I was agreeing. I stated before that I'm not good with spreads so I merely suggested some changes.

I dunno about everyone else though. :p

-Terywj
I'm a million times worse. I understand how these discussions should be played out, but I don't understand how Pokemon is competitively played, which is why I've only really been active in the art direction of this project, because that is what I do know. Though, it would be much more beneficial to the design if I understood every little inch of how the Pokemon works so I could design a creature to match that, rather than coming up with a design convincing enough that you guys might end up basing the stats around it. I'm sure that's how it worked for various Pokemon over the four generations (especially for the first two where Pokemon were more so based on creatures than abstractions), but some are obviously designed for statistics rather than vice versa.
 
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I'm just saying, I don't want to change my idea. When the poll comes, I don't want to see "variation of umbreon's" that's all. Besides, I'd like to see someone else come up with something different.
 

Terrador14

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Hi. I'm new. Anyhoo, I'll just put my two cents in on this (in case you're wondering, relax; I'm a decent competitiver player).

Bulky Offense is, for the most part, physical. There's not many special bulky things out there which hit hard; the only things that pop up are Starmie, Zapdos, and Latias; this factors into my idea for the base stats.

HP: 85
Generic HP stat; you'll see why in a minute.

Attack: 80
I disagree with Umbreon on the low Attack power of his spread. Anything with STAB Earthquake should have a decent Attack unless there's really good reason for it not to. Plus, flinch power with Waterfall could be a good aid.

Defense: 140
THIS is why it stops physical Bulky Offense right in its tracks. Being immune to EQ, resisting Stone Edge, and in general having a godlike typing, life becomes a lot easier. With just less than Registeel's physical defensive potential and an exponentially better physically defensive typing, things like Gyara will be hard pressed to tear this bad boy apart even with unresisted STAB. Scizor can suck it.

Special Attack: 80
I'd like to note that having access to a Psychic move (persay, Extrasensory?) would be a huge boon for this poke, allowing it to tear apart the 4x weaknesses in bulky offense and still hit Machamp hard (after all, he IS a solid staple of Bulky Offense).

Special Defense: 65
Eww. This is where the fun ends. This is in place to allow special moves to capitalize on this poke, discouraging its use in bulky offense somewhat. However, Tyranitar makes a solid partner for it, absorbing many special attacks and Pursuiting things like Latias and Starmie. He also manages to lay the hurt down on Zapdos, absorbing anything it's got and proceeding to Stone Edge (or, predicting a Roost, EQ).

Speed: 90
Woot! Being able to outspeed Gyarados is extremely important. Not to mention the fact that quite a few bulky pokes hang around in the 86> speed tiers, so that's a huge help (don't even talk to me about ScarfTom appliances). It's also worthy to note that this lies under the range of many special attackers who could tear it apart with STAB moves, discouraging its use in bulky offense again due to the fact that most special attackers can threaten it viciously, especially with their lack of weaknesses that its relatively low attacking stats can capitalize on.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I seem to have rectified this a tad, though. Perhaps a Leviathan-esque design would do well for this beast, reflecting its vast physical defense and weight. If you wanna get philosophical about movepool, you could say that it's been around for millenia; as such, it knows moves that most fish don't have access to (Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, potentially Extrasensory...).

I'd like to note that this spread gives a BST of 540, the number Umbreon did not want to surpass. Looking back, this seems just a smidgen high for a poke with such great typing, but whatever.

Glad to be of help!
Terrador14
 
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hmm, a tad close to forretress for my taste, but still very clever all around. good work.
 

Wave⁂

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I like how Terrador's can't survive any special Grass attacks. Makes him not over-powered.
 

Terrador14

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Specs anything is going to **** it to be honest.

Anyhoo, would this poke be better suited to Levitate (I have an idea to "justify" it) or the idea that Umbreon brought up: Water Absorb?
 

Circa

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If this Pokemon were to actually exist and ended up getting Terrador's stat spread, I would never ever ever run Explosion on Heatran. Ever.
 
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good thing it still commonly carries HP grass for swampert and friends.
 

UltiMario

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Not sure why, but I like the idea of taking 5 Base stats out of Defense, and 3 out of Speed, then shoving them into Special Defense on Terrador's.

Don't ask me why, I just feel like that might work better.
 

Terrador14

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Not sure why, but I like the idea of taking 5 Base stats out of Defense, and 3 out of Speed, then shoving them into Special Defense on Terrador's.

Don't ask me why, I just feel like that might work better.
While this is a pretty good idea, it just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. This is probably because I don't like messing with a weakness we really need to be able to exploit but whatever. I do like the proposition to move the three speed points over, though. It would do very little to aid its special bulk, but make denting/killing offensive variations with non-scarf Rade and Pory-Z (and, by extension, the forgettable Pikachu, Moltres, and SpecsCario).

So yeah, I'm more for the 85/80/140/80/68/87 spread now. Admittedly, it does miss out on the 69, which is major sadface.

I would give that 4th speed point to defense, but I want to be able to outrun the Rotom appliances. Those things are just so powerful and bulky that we should at least pose some threat with STAB Waterfalls and Surfs. I'm assuming that we won't be giving it Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse, but Crunch might be happening.
 

Wave⁂

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Well, maybe we should do some calcs. Maximum SpDef to be OHKOd by Latias's Grass Knot.

Dammit, how much does this guy weigh?
 

UltiMario

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We need to do the design first.

But from the looks of the current Art ideas, It'll be base 80 at absolute worst, and base 40 at absolute best.
 

Terrador14

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We need to do the design first.

But from the looks of the current Art ideas, It'll be base 80 at absolute worst, and base 40 at absolute best.
Can't let you brew that, Starbucks.

Considering the godlike defense, this thing is easily going to be in the 120 group. However, I'll calc 40, 60, and 80. Editing them in in a moment.

All calcs assume 252 HP/252 SDef +nature and 252 SAtk neutral nature.

No boosts 40 BP: 38.5%-35.99%

LO 40 BP: 49.2%-58.82%

Specs 40 BP: 57.75%-68.45%

No boosts 60 BP: 57.75%-68.45%

LO 60 BP: 74.87%-88.77%

Specs 60 BP: 85.56%-100% (7.69% OHKO, 46.15% OHKO w/SR)

No boosts 80 BP: 77.01%-90.91%

LO 80 BP: 99.47%-100% (92.31% OHKO, OHKO w/SR)

Specs 80 BP: 100% (OHKO)

No boosts 100 BP: 95.19%-100% (66.67% OHKO, OHKO w/SR)

Anything beyond that is an OHKO.
 

UltiMario

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Even with Godlike defense, the art would just need thick scales of some sort, which aren't very heavy, and with the average like-lookingness of current designs....
 

Terywj [태리]

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You also have to consider that there are other stat spreads (albeit only one at the moment) floating around in this thread.

On a side note, how long would you like me to keep this open? I know we only have 2 spreads right now, but it's up to you guys. I'm just in charge of leading this project(s). :D

-Terywj
 

Terrador14

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You also have to consider that there are other stat spreads (albeit only one at the moment) floating around in this thread.

On a side note, how long would you like me to keep this open? I know we only have 2 spreads right now, but it's up to you guys. I'm just in charge of leading this project(s). :D

-Terywj
Likewise, the calcing is applicable to the spread we're discussing. On the other one, anything short of 100 BP will have trouble 2HKOing by the looks of it.
 

Terywj [태리]

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That would be Umbreon's point. By having good defenses he can easily walk up to bulky-attackers and get rid of them by preying on their weaker special defenses.

Yours, likewise can block physical but not special assaults. This means Roserade, Heatran, and Celebi can take you out.

I'm not saying either is worse, by the way. I just wanted to make sure you know.

-Terywj
 

Terrador14

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Indeed I do. His appears to want to fight fire with fire, having a solid poke all-around. My spread attempts to make a somewhat specialized counter, allowing for particularly exploitable weaknesses that don't have much usage in bulky offense.

Anyhoo, I'm done blabbing for now. My carpal tunnel is screwing with Lefty, and it's Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
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Even with Godlike defense, the art would just need thick scales of some sort, which aren't very heavy, and with the average like-lookingness of current designs....
tell it to milotic.

edit: I like the other spread, I just don't want CAP1 to be a wasted slot on a team against stall. dual base 80s isn't breaking anything, at least a base 110 can force a switch and allow the potential to outplay your opponent. If you're looking for a strict BO counter, both should get the job done fairly well.

edit2: keep it open for a good while, this is one of the deeper aspects of development.
 

Circa

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good thing it still commonly carries HP grass for swampert and friends.
Well this tends to happen with me anyway, seeing as my teams are usually a little Swampert weak to begin with.

For some weird reason I was thinking this guy should get a Base SAtk stat somewhere around 100. No lower than 95, but no higher than 105. If you decide to give it Choice Specs it could make for a decent enough wall breaker (for an example of another decent wall breaker see CBGon, who I honestly think is extremely underrated considering his typing and overall stats on both the offensive and defensive front).

Yeah, I'm honestly not too good at stat distribution either, but I just thought I'd throw that option out there. Apply it to either of the currently given distributions and think about what it could do for the set overall. I honestly don't think it's a bad route to take, but that might just be me.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Here are some of my ideas for my formulation spread...

Good defenses (but not broken) are necessary to take hits from bulky offense while a good special attack stat helps hit back. A higher special attack is also beneficial due to Intimidate, a lower special defense stat, etc.
As far as speed goes SmashCAP 1 won't be too fast, but it won't be too slow either. So somewhere in the 80's.

-Terywj
 
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