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Smash 4, Sheik and balancing: A discussion on expectations

_Tree

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Let's have a chat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeSjNxfqb1M

I feel this is relevant to all the complaints that have popped up around these boards, and hopefully it can help give people a bit of a different perspective before complaining (hopefully?).

Anybody agree with my ideas? Disagree?
 
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WondrousMoose

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This. I agree with you completely, and I agree with Sakurai's idea of fighter "personalities". If Bowser just jabbed and scratched really fast or if Little Mac slowed down to the pace of a drunk brawler, I would be pretty annoyed by the changes. Sheik's playstyle feels good. It feels like a ninja. The rest of the cast has some catching up to do in future balance patches, and I look forward to how they will turn out, but I personally feel that Sheik will remain largely untouched.
 

Cyn

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This. I agree with you completely, and I agree with Sakurai's idea of fighter "personalities". If Bowser just jabbed and scratched really fast or if Little Mac slowed down to the pace of a drunk brawler, I would be pretty annoyed by the changes. Sheik's playstyle feels good. It feels like a ninja. The rest of the cast has some catching up to do in future balance patches, and I look forward to how they will turn out, but I personally feel that Sheik will remain largely untouched.
I agree. I think that Sheik has been over all balanced for a while. The only thing that really required changes were moves that were new to this particular game.
 

gsmVoiD

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The one thing I don't agree on is more end lag to needles in a sense that this could go bad

Full Hop Rising needles only gives you 3 frames to input a move before you hit the ground, and if they added more than 3 frames of end lag to needles then this option would not exist at all because you would land with Needle's landing lag no matter how perfectly you time it. If this were to happen, the only alternative would be a double jump needles meaning you lose your dj.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it could become a lot worse depending on how Nintendo were to patch it
 

Gidy

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As a Mario player, I agree that Sheik doesn't need anymore further nerfs. Imo the character identity was even more fulfilled with her attacks being nerfed in KO Power since that's what a lot of her other aerials are as well. Quick attacks that don't kill but are REALLY good, but that may just be me being stupid. Sheik is fine and is naturally going to make other slower characters struggle, because that's what she is.

....but I agree, maybe needles/aerial needles are next to be nerfed. Being able to play 2 different styles in very exceptional manners is just too much. And if anything, camping needles go against what the character is.
 

_Tree

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The one thing I don't agree on is more end lag to needles in a sense that this could go bad

Full Hop Rising needles only gives you 3 frames to input a move before you hit the ground, and if they added more than 3 frames of end lag to needles then this option would not exist at all because you would land with Needle's landing lag no matter how perfectly you time it. If this were to happen, the only alternative would be a double jump needles meaning you lose your dj.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it could become a lot worse depending on how Nintendo were to patch it
My general intention was that grounded needles should have more endlag, rather than aerial ones. Grounded needles are what's causing the huge problems in neutral for a lot of characters. I'd say aerial needles are under-utilized and a really fun but generally balanced option.
 

Jerodak

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To be honest, I don't necessarily want Sheik to get dunked by patches or anything. However I do believe that she needs some fine-tuning.

I could be wrong, and if I am then I'd like to know, but it really seems like the root of Sheik's problem is just an overall lack of good counter play. I also believe that there aren't any huge problems with Sheik so much as a bunch of little ones, and that she could be safely adjusted without hurting her playstyle or tech at all.

I do like the idea of more needle lag, but they already lag a lot at the end, wouldn't making them a bit slower on the front end make more sense? Then it would at least be possible to react to them if you are ready, but they wouldn't need to be so slow as to make them useless in strings or anything, just make them more reactable in neutral.

This would make it possible for a skilled opponent to perfect shield them and punish throwing single needles or any low charge of needles by gaining space, but would still let her throw low charge needles as a mix-up. It shouldn't really hurt any of her tech with needles either, unless I'm mistaken on how needle canceling works.

I also believe that up b is a little suspect, it is really hard to punish on top of having a lot of different uses. Maybe tone down the sheer versatility of it, but still let it shine in other areas.

Also, I'm not so sure if simply buffing everyone to Sheik level sounds like such a great idea. How would that even be possible for characters like Bowser or Little Mac without making them way too good? I mean, I won't complain if Bowser got some amazing buffs, but he's already perfectly functional outside of a few glaring issues.

However, even if those problems were fixed, he still wouldn't be Sheik level. He would be much better overall though. That being said, because I realize I may be completely wrong, could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean? How would it be possible to make Bowser "Sheik level" without affecting his play style/fundamentals or just making him busted? I'm very interested in hearing your ideas.

Thanks for reading!
 

_Tree

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Also, I'm not so sure if simply buffing everyone to Sheik level sounds like such a great idea. How would that even be possible for characters like Bowser or Little Mac without making them way too good? I mean, I won't complain if Bowser got some amazing buffs, but he's already perfectly functional outside of a few glaring issues.

However, even if those problems were fixed, he still wouldn't be Sheik level. He would be much better overall though. That being said, because I realize I may be completely wrong, could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean? How would it be possible to make Bowser "Sheik level" without affecting his play style/fundamentals or just making him busted? I'm very interested in hearing your ideas.
See, this is the problem right here. I don't know how these characters COULD be brought up to Sheik's level in well-thought-out ways, based off their current state. This is going off my point of character intent again. Sakurai designed characters like Little Mac so that they fill a specific gameplay niche, and not so that they would have the ability to go toe-to-toe with any character in the game. These characters, in the current game engine, are inherently worse, as they weren't designed around balance but instead around novelty. They didn't consider how Bowser would be able to get out of aerial chains when designing his aerials. They thought 'hey, this looks cool'. They didn't think of how Bowser would be able to approach with his laggy aerials, or how it might affect his combo ability. They thought 'Hey he's a slow character right? Put lag on his aerials! That makes sense!'

This is also an issue with the game engine itself. Bowser is obviously a heavy character, so it makes sense that his attacks are slow and hard-hitting. However with the current amount of hitstun, the slow attacks of king koopa don't apply a comparable amount of hitstun to be able to combo together. On the other hand, we see quick characters like Sheik, Luigi and ZSS excelling in tournament, because they are fast enough within the current engine to chain attacks together (obviously this isn't the only reason for their domination, but it plays a big part).

The entire game engine, at least within competitive 1v1 play, is biased towards quick characters. It might need changes in order to help out slower ones.

You could bring Bowser up to the same level as Sheik currently, but it honestly feels like it'd have to be done in seriously degenerate ways, such as giving him huge amounts of armour on a lot of his moves. Little Mac overall just seems like a really poorly designed character to me. He would need an overhaul on an intrinsic level in order to be made better, which isn't something that can be done just through buffs.

It's also not just a question of viability, but also creativity. You called Bowser "functional", but I want him to be something more than that. Give him all the creative options Sheik has but in relation to him. Instead of just a static Side-B command grab, give him a technically challenging but greatly rewarding command grab combo setup. Let him use his claws to grip to the sides of walls, but also attack while hanging on. I can think of so many things that they could've added to increase the depth of the character, but they didn't out of fear of 'alienating' the casual audience, who wouldn't have cared either way.

It feels like I went off on a tangent, but hopefully that answers your questions : P.
 

Jerodak

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@ _Tree _Tree Alright, I think I understand, but in all honesty, I'd personally prefer if Bowser didn't gain combos so much as trap options, tech chase set-ups and/or resets. I mean if he had straight-up combos then it could get out of hand quickly unless they nerfed his damage (two f-airs and a n-air is already 35-40~% off just three moves.) However, more tech chase opportunities, while not guaranteed, would let him exert more pressure and create more chances to land his big moves. That seems like it'd be pretty fair since the opponent can avoid taking massive damage into death by being aware and making smart decisions. It'd also be more fun, in my opinion at least.

Also, it wouldn't take big changes because he can already do that to an extent. A lot of his moves force tech landings at low percents and he can even get F-air to fsmash with the right read. Of course this is also somewhat of a tangent, I could talk all day about Bowser stuff. Might be best to end that here and get back on topic. (Though we can discuss that topic further in a conversation later if you like.)

Like I stated before, Sheik's primary problem appears to be poor counter-play. There don't seem to be a lot of valid situations where anything she does opens up any viable options for the opponent. I feel like this may be primarily, though not entirely, due to how potent needles are in neutral. Of course, as I also stated before, I could very easily be completely wrong, so If there actually is a lot of deep, usable counter play surrounding her then I'd love to hear how it works. That's really what I'm most interested in learning at the moment.
 

WondrousMoose

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I honestly hope this makes it to the front page, as I feel that it would really change the tone of people talking about the perceived unfairness of top tiers - not just Sheik. It's nice to be reminded that there's more to this game than 1-on-1/no items/neutral stages.
 

_Tree

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I think I understand, but in all honesty, I'd personally prefer if Bowser didn't gain combos so much as trap options, tech chase set-ups and/or resets. I mean if he had straight-up combos then it could get out of hand quickly unless they nerfed his damage (two f-airs and a n-air is already 35-40~% off just three moves.)
Well, my grab-combo-setup thing was mainly just an example. The character could go many ways.

Like I stated before, Sheik's primary problem appears to be poor counter-play. There don't seem to be a lot of valid situations where anything she does opens up any viable options for the opponent. I feel like this may be primarily, though not entirely, due to how potent needles are in neutral. Of course, as I also stated before, I could very easily be completely wrong, so If there actually is a lot of deep, usable counter play surrounding her then I'd love to hear how it works. That's really what I'm most interested in learning at the moment.
You're right, needles do allow for a pretty dominating neutral, but again, this is why I claimed that they should receive some slight nerfs.
In general however, Sheik kind of does lack much counter-play when played very, very well. She's just not as committal compared to the rest of the cast. This isn't because she's too good though, it's, again, because the rest of the cast is just inadequate. If the majority of the cast was faster, could punish better or had more options, more opportunities to punish Sheik would open up. As of right now, I can't think of many off the top of my head.

I honestly hope this makes it to the front page, as I feel that it would really change the tone of people talking about the perceived unfairness of top tiers - not just Sheik. It's nice to be reminded that there's more to this game than 1-on-1/no items/neutral stages.
It'd be nice, but those comment sections are looking pretty cancerous on the home page. It doesn't feel like many people would understand/agree. Worth a shot if the opportunity arises though.
 
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John12346

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That video was really good, and well thought out, to be sure. There were a lot of good points that really lined up with what I had figured the dev team had decided about the game a long time ago.

I'm just going to poke at this point, just because you and I both agree it's a future that probably won't happen, but on the topic of buffing of the rest of the cast to top tier status... I agree with you there. Ideally, that's the best way for the game's balance should be handled. However, at the same time, I also believe that, in any competitive game, there's a line that needs to be drawn as far as "how good" a character should be.

In my completely subjective opinion, I believe that, in Smash 4, that line is drawn at Rosalina and ZSS, rather than Sheik. I and a large amount of non-Sheik players mainly see things this way because Sheik has an observable zero weaknesses in her current 1.1.0 form, which I believe is a flawed method of designing a character. It's fine if a character has all of the options in the world, but there definitely needs to be some limiting factors in any character's design. As it stands, each and every other top and high tier character has at least one check in terms of matchups, and for the most part, very obvious weaknesses that can be exploited, even if it is rather difficult to do so. Right now, I don't believe Sheik follows the same mold in any way, and I do think that it might be a bit problematic to leave her that way and try to improve many other characters to that level.

(I'm gonna sorta cite P:M 3.0, also known as The Buffening, as my experience on the topic of trying to buff everyone to a clearly ridiculous character's level. It was ridiculous lmao)

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and there's no real right or wrong about it, but it is a firm belief that I hold.
 

Jerodak

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In general however, Sheik kind of does lack much counter-play when played very, very well. She's just not as committal compared to the rest of the cast. This isn't because she's too good though, it's, again, because the rest of the cast is just inadequate. If the majority of the cast was faster, could punish better or had more options, more opportunities to punish Sheik would open up. As of right now, I can't think of many off the top of my head.
To be completely honest, I never meant to imply that Sheik is too good. Whether Sheik is too good or other characters are too bad is largely subjective, and it can make things degenerate in a hurry. Especially since it's difficult to compare how good one is compared to another. I was interested in your ideas but in hindsight it probably wasn't a very fair comparison, it's like trying to compare a knife with a spear. So I feel it may be best, to steer clear of that for now, and I would also like to apologize if my earlier statements came off as being too aggressive. I imagine you tend to get a lot of flak already for your ideas already.

Despite our differences in opinions however, we do have similar objectives. "How would it be possible to change Sheik while sticking to what we currently believe to be Mr. Sakurai's criteria for character creation/balance without making Shiek an arbitrarily "bad" or less interesting character.

This is why I went straight to counter play, because it's something that could be added on without hurting the character and it can help make the character deeper, more interesting and more fun for everyone. Even pre-patch diddy had viable counter play options. (Controlling the banana, abusing his recovery, ect) but his problem seemed to be more based around an incredibly skewed risk-reward where he could flowchart through a number of matches with little effort. Although, that did seem to obscure the counter play a little.

Sheik may have some risk-reward issues but I think the lack of counter play is more glaring from her end. Just like @ John12346 John12346 mentioned, the other high tier characters have exploitable weaknesses, even when played optimal. That's not exactly a bad thing though, because it makes the character more interesting.

Anyone playing against that character can have fun employing strategies around those weaknesses and the person using that character can challenge themselves by working around them. So long as the weak points are not too glaring, this is should be a completely fair and balanced approach.

That's the sort of thing I'd like to see implemented for everyone, not just Sheik. Though she seems to need it a bit more than anyone else. As for amending glaring flaws in the weaker members of the cast, I agree with that approach as well; a proper balance of each appears to be a very good approach.

Ideally, this would open up new strategies and options for the entire cast without hurting the game's accessibility or having to make excessive changes. Might sound kinda lofty, but hey, dare to dream!
 

_Tree

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In regards to John12346 and Jerodak, you both bring up some good points. Character counter-play is important, and characters like Rosa and ZSS do have big weak states when outplayed (lacking luma and whiffing grab, respectively).

The way I see it, something was lost in translation from the move from free-for-alls to 1v1s in terms of Sheik. Based off her kit, the devs designed her with the ideal that she'd be very quick/lagless and land lots of hits, but her damage output with each hit wouldn't be very high. She'd also struggle with killing, as her main killing tools are very context dependent and hard to land (especially in a free-for-all). I believe her changes in past balance patches reflect this intent, with nerfs to Bouncing Fish, U-air and B-air in terms of knockback, and B-air and F-air in terms of damage.

These weaknesses however...don't transfer directly into a 1v1 match. Having small amounts of damage on each move doesn't mean much if you're able to lock the opponent in one long, continuous combo. Same deal with situational kill moves if you're able to set up into them without distractions. This lines up with my idea that balance is done with free-for-alls primarily in mind. Taking everything into account, Sheik isn't the best character in a FFA (in fact, I rather dislike playing as her in such an anarchic environment). Those points of counter-play in a FFA environment don't always necessarily work within a much more focused, controlled one.

This is why I suggested the nerfs I did, in conjunction with buffing the majority of the cast. The points you two have made have made me consider counter-play a bit more though. Got me wondering if I would increase the magnitude of the nerfs I gave...
 

Rebel13

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Can't watch your video on this computer, so if I'm repeating things sorry 'bout that.
As a ninja I feel Sheik needs to keep her godly frame data, or something just wouldn't be right from the novelty perspective. Even so, I don't see why Sheik can't be balanced for both competitve and FFA. Basically there are 3 "nerfs" I'd want to give Sheik.

1. More startup on grounded needles. I wouldn't want to prevent needle canceling necessarily, but right now they are just so hard to react to in neutral to the point where it just dominates some matchups really, really hard.

2. More damage on fair. With the recent increase in knockback as of 1.1.0, adding more damage would effectively slightly increase the knockback of the move. Basically I think fair -> shorthop -> fair -> land -> shorthop -> fair chains should not work on an opponent who DI's away. Fair would also not combo into BF at mid percents, so less damage done overall. It might kill a bit earlier though.

3. Very slightly more base knockback on Ftilt. This would just make it harder to rack up damage at low percent, but it would kill sooner. 160% maybe?

In essence this would be a nerf to her combo game (mostly the redundant parts of it) , while slightly increasing kill power. I mean really, in FFA the two things that matter most are frame data and kill power, while 1vs1 is mostly about frame data and approach/combo options. I just want Sheik to be good in both and not dominate one form and suck in the other like she does now.

Obviously my changes would not drop sheik's position on the tier list, if at all. but it would lower her to a level where I think you could more easily buff other characters to.
 
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Jerodak

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@ _Tree _Tree I imagine that she would forced to fall back on hit and run in that setting, as well as "snipe" kills. This seems to explain moves like Bouncing Fish, Grenades, and why up b has I-frames + K.O hitbox. She could toss any of those into a scramble to pick off heavily damaged opponents.

So I suppose her up b might not need to loose the K.O hit, or it could just be moved to the end of the move this could still let Sheik have options based around it in both settings. Though the options in 1v1 would change a bit.

I would say maybe "buff" f-air kbg so it could "snipe" more reliably near the the edge at later percents, but it already seems to do that well enough.

I imagine, the most favorable approach, may be to incentivize her rush down; maybe by changing how some her tools work. The trade off is that her camping/defense would diminish. This would make approaching her a bit easier, and it grants more opportunities to stuff approach options. However, her advantage state is really strong, so that sounds pretty fair. Does that sound like a reasonable approach?
 

John12346

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Well, strictly speaking, there are plenty of ways to change Sheik's abilities around, all the while keeping her fast, safe ninja persona intact, but at least pulling in the reins a bit so she's lined up with Rosalina and ZSS and the like in terms of viability. There are a few obvious ones that I'm sure everyone's thought of at this point, as well as a few that might not be immediately evident. Of course, I'm not suggesting that ALL of them would need to be applied to achieve the desired effect (in fact I would think that would be unreasonable), but it's just a brainstorm, after all.

Hopefully I'm not put to the fire with over 9000 slaps and needles for this:
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- Aerials
Just for the record, when I mention aerials, I'm referring to it as a blanket term for Fair, Nair, and Bair combined. Usually, when most people think about how these should be nerfed, the first answer that comes up is "increased landing lag." And while that would be a desirable change for non-Sheik players, a change like that really would go against what the character of Sheik stands for. In this case, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP in that what should be changed is the incredible amount of range and disjoint these moves are sporting. They already have amazing frame data and really consistent damage off a stray hit, but when you add the reach of these moves into the equation, they start to become incredible moves that can take the neutral by force in a huge amount of matchups.

I'm sure we all know the story here. Spaced Sheik aerials are 100% unpunishable by almost the entire cast, and even on a powershield in most cases, and spacing these moves is incredibly easy due to their natural disjoint. Thus, what needs to change is either the speed or range of the moves. Since we all understand that messing with Sheik's speed would simply be taking away from her character design, it's the range that should probably be touched up. Sheik is not a character who should have any disjoint on her moves at all, really. It's still important to reward players for spacing their moves properly, but it definitely shouldn't come as easily as it does right now for Sheik.

- Needle Storm
A lot of people suggest an ending lag increase to this move, and that's certainly reasonable, as punishing Sheik from midrange and even close range for a lot of characters is close to impossible. Adjusting the ending lag makes more sense in this move's case because the sheer speed of Sheik's character shines through in the needles themselves, rather than the frame data of it all.

However, I'm not a hundred percent sure about that kind of a change. As many Sheiks have mentioned, messing around with the frame data on needles could potentially screw with some of her gameplan, with the most commonly cited being full hop needles and aerial needles > Bouncing Fish. At the same time, though, leaving needles as they are with that kind of frame data is dangerous, because it allows Sheik to pressure opponents from afar just by existing. The needles are not just really fast and almost impossible to punish, but also provide huge benefits when they hit; popping opponents into the air and making it effectively impossible for them to land as more needles come. My proposed change to address this but still keep the overall utility of the move might be a little controversial, but how about this: "The grounded version of Needle Storm cannot launch opponents." Think Falco Lasers, but with a bit more hitstun.

With that kind of change, all of Sheik's aerial needle gambits are kept intact, and she still retains her ability to quickly stuff opponents on the ground trying to set up any tricks from afar. However, what does change is that she doesn't suddenly gain an advantaged state from hitting the opponent with a maddeningly fast projectile all the way from the other side of the screen. As a result, it doesn't force the opponent into this convoluted dance that doesn't even make any progress in the match if one wishes to circumvent these needles.

- Down Throw
This point is fairly obvious, but Dthrow should be adjusted so it doesn't lead into that ridiculous guaranteed kill or 50/50 guessing game starting at 110% or so. The easiest way here being to increase the knockback growth on Dthrow. In Smash 4, it's really obvious that Sheik was meant to be marketed as a character that has a hard time killing. And for the most part, she does, with the exception of her patented Dthrow Uair combo, or fake out into Vanish, both of which can close out stocks at unbelievably low for an allegedly "weak" character. And keep in mind, all of this starts from a grab with some seriously good frame data. If we want to talk about keeping a character in line with their design goals, this is one of the points that should more urgently be addressed.

- Vanish
I'm not sure how much Vanish actually needs to be touched, but removing the i-frames would make sense on a design level just on the premise that Sheik in Melee and Brawl has been a character who had difficulties getting back onstage(primarily because teleport recoveries were easily edgehoggable). I'm not sure if it was intended for Sheik to be really good at recovering in this game because of the addition of Bouncing Fish, but Vanish was made to be an infinitely more powerful recovery move because of the new ledge mechanics. You get invincibility frames, followed by a hitbox that can kill, followed by more invincibility frames for grabbing the edge which more or less can't be stopped. Seems like a jarring change from what we're used to in the previous games.
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Once again, before you guys come at me with pitchforks, keep in mind that I do not believe that ALL of these changes should be in effect. In fact, I only believe two or even one change would be required to put her in line with the other top tiers and ultimately keep her top tier. IMO the changes to Needle Storm and Down Throw as explained above would be enough, as an aside.

And that's not even factoring in the buffs I think Sheik should receive, too!
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- Buffs for Sheik!?
If there's anything to pull from everything I just got through explaining, it's that Sheik does have a really hard time killing. And some of her kill moves just don't work the way they should, and seem somewhat dysfunctional. And if we were to take away Dthrow Uair as a kill option, it gets even worse for her. We should do something about that. For the most part, Fsmash, Dsmash, and Bair are the key moves that need to be addressed.

For all three of these moves, they should all have their knockback growth increased by some amount. Enough that they kill at reasonably middling percents, but nothing too extravagant, of course. Fsmash should be adjusted so that if the first hit connects, the opponent gets nailed by the second hit instead of them falling out 90% of the time like they do right now. Lastly, Dsmash's hitboxes really need to be fixed, because right now, it's a whirlwind of... absolutely nothing. I would say just go back to the hitboxes Brawl Dsmash had. Nice and big, right at the startup of the move.
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Anyway, that's basically everything I wanted to say. Keep in mind that I don't believe that Sheik really needs to be touched too heavily, and that only a scant amount of the changes I've suggested really need to take effect in order to make her a Top Tier character that people won't complain about. At the end of the day, though, the Sheik boards are correct in saying that she is a very fragile character in terms of the balance of the game, and that even one wrong change could be enough to rocket her down to Mid Tier. I don't think these are changes that are necessarily going to happen, but would definitely make sense from a design standpoint.

All that aside, in all likelihood the devs are probably just going to reduce the knockback growth on Uair and call it a day, eh heh...

*gets stabbed with all the pitchforks*

*ALL OF THEM*
 
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Axel311

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As I see it, the issue with sheik is she has an awesome option at all times of the match. Her lack of killing power isn't that big of a deal with the rage mechanic, her gimping ability, and her ability to link move after move after move in succession. I don't want to see her up close combo game and frame data touched because that would be affecting the novelty of the character. But the main issue I see is her needles. She should not have such a strong camping game when she has amazing combos, amazing frame data and an amazing recovery. That's just too many options.

She's a character I feel should be the one approaching. The fact that most characters are forced to approach her breaks so many matchups in a game where neutral is so important. Add more startup and endlag to needles, possibly more charge time, and I'd probably be happy with where she is at.

I completely disagree with the notion we need to consider FFAs or 2v2 when balancing. Casual players don't care about balance. And at low skill levels where mistakes are made constantly it's impossible to balance anyways. I absolutely think the game should be balanced for 1v1 exclusively. The smash competitive scene drives this game in the mainstream, and 99% of our crowd only cares about 1v1, and competitive smashers are the only segment of smash players who care about balance. We can't let Sheik be OP in 1v1 just because making her balanced in 1v1 would mean she's underpowered in 2v2 or FFA. 1v1 is just way more important. Seriously, who cares about balancing the game for FFAs? And who is more into 2v2 than 1v1? Everyone I know who plays 2v2 in tourneys just does on the side, their main focus is always 1v1. Just look at this forum. The number of threads talking about 2v2 or FFAs is microscopic compared to the number of threads about 1v1.
 
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ArikadoSD

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- Down Throw
This point is fairly obvious, but Dthrow should be adjusted so it doesn't lead into that ridiculous guaranteed kill or 50/50 guessing game starting at 110% or so. The easiest way here being to increase the knockback growth on Dthrow. In Smash 4, it's really obvious that Sheik was meant to be marketed as a character that has a hard time killing. And for the most part, she does, with the exception of her patented Dthrow Uair combo, or fake out into Vanish, both of which can close out stocks at unbelievably low for an allegedly "weak" character. And keep in mind, all of this starts from a grab with some seriously good frame data. If we want to talk about keeping a character in line with their design goals, this is one of the points that should more urgently be addressed.
Indeed. The 50/50 of "should I jump and DI away or should I air dodge like an idiot and die for it?"

there is no percent where uair will true combo /and kill/ as long as you DI away and jump. Maybe there is on some light characters like ZSS Fox or Sheik assuming Sheik has a lot of rage, but that's dependent on rage and their probably slightly improper DI. Blame rage, not Sheik's dthrow > uair.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I think Vanish needs nerfs of some kind. It is indisputably the most difficult recovery move in the game to edgeguard. Serving as both an attack and an airdodge as you simply point to the ledge. There's no difficulty in using the move, nor an element of risk of any kind. The amount of people that have died when edgeguarding shiek is astronomically higher than the amount of shieks that died when trying to simply vanish to the ledge. I often ask myself from a design perspective, "why is it necessary that she be unkillable offstage", and I don't have an answer. Her onstage presence is fantastic. Good aerial pressure, quick normal moves, needles that she can charge or throw to force the approach or just to pass time.

They could add more counterplay with needles. They trivialize matchups with characters that lack any zoning tools, but it's not like it deals all that much damage. Why not increase the startup before throwing and reduce the endlag so that the total frame count is unchanged? Shiek could still land a bouncing fish after an aerial needle barrage, and the grounded version that we're so afraid of has more of a warning before it comes out for us to shield.

And it would be unfortunate if Shiek didn't receive buffs to compensate for such critical nerfs. Off the top of my head, her multijab is absurdly easy to escape with good SDI, so a tweak on that modifier would be nice for at least the casual setting. I actually would like to see a stronger Uair and Bair. Not being able to kill after successfully breaking your opponents aerial zone is not fun, especially with such poor air speed. I really don't see a reason for grenade to put her in special fall. And Fsmash could stand to be useful in just one smash game. Drop the damage of kick 1 and add weight based knockback, then increase the damage of kick 2 so that it can kill at reasonable percents. I don't know what you can do about Dsmash. More total hits to catch ledge rolls? It doesn't currently serve a niche use for her from what I've seen.
 

John12346

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Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting these changes because I dislike Sheik as a character (and trust me, I'm definitely not a fan of Sheik). As I mentioned before, the primary driving force behind this kind of discussion mainly stems from the differences Sheik has from the rest of the cast. Mainly in how she affects the game where everyone else does not. As I mentioned before:

"A large amount of non-Sheik players mainly see things this way because Sheik has an observable zero weaknesses in her current 1.1.0 form... As it stands, each and every other top and high tier character has at least one check in terms of matchups, and for the most part, very obvious weaknesses that can be exploited, even if it is rather difficult to do so."

It's pretty clear that Sheik stands alone on this front as far as Smash goes. From my perspective, at the very least, it's a little disappointing that the game has the potential to be stifled a bit by her (Not a lot, mind you. This ain't no Brawl MK, and she's definitely the weakest "best" character to date in a Smash game). No other character really has the potential to do that primarily because they all have their own sets of checks and weaknesses, allowing for a much more dynamic metagame to exist.

Bottom line: I and hopefully everyone else here are discussing this objectively because the way this character is handled directly impacts the game at a core level, not because we are salty. Of course, there's no way of proving that for everyone but I hope it's the primary driving factor behind this kind of discussion.

Indeed. The 50/50 of "should I jump and DI away or should I air dodge like an idiot and die for it?"

there is no percent where uair will true combo /and kill/ as long as you DI away and jump. Maybe there is on some light characters like ZSS Fox or Sheik assuming Sheik has a lot of rage, but that's dependent on rage and their probably slightly improper DI. Blame rage, not Sheik's dthrow > uair.
Is this actually true? Because I've labbed this a lot as many different characters at many different rage levels with a crewmate who plays Sheik, and from what I can tell proper DI and mashing the crud out of jump isn't enough to escape. Do you have to do something special?
 
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ShinRamen

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I'm positive that there's a 50/50, but the percentage range where you can't jump from up air and it'll still kill is very limited; one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give for anyone going up against Sheik is to learn this percentage range (with rage too) so you don't end up airdodging in a situation where jumping would've escaped everything. As Sheik, it's very hard to force a grab at these percents (since it's the main thing the opponent should be trying to avoid), and it's often the case that by conditioning to sheild with needles and fair, by the time we get the grab, no throw will convert to anything.

In my opinion, Sheik is in a good place as it is. Fwiw (and since the balancing team is exposed mostly to Japanese tournaments), not a single Sheik placed top 8 at the previous Umebura (with a few rosas in there), and I believe only Edge placed top 8 at Hyper-Sumabato, losing to Ranai's villager in GF.

Even in the US, the only truly dominant Sheik is ZeRo, and I don't think it's disputable that most of that can be accredited to his player skill.

Perhaps my biggest issue is that these are the very same conversations people had regarding original Diddy Kong. Now that Sheik is #1, all the whining is directed towards her, and I'm not hopeful at all that if she gets nerfed, the same treatment won't be directed to the next in line.
 

John12346

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Trust me, I can understand how insanely people can hate on the best character in the game. The Diddy wars were hilarious to watch, that's for sure. The only reason I'm participating in this kind of business now is because I have actually held these opinions about Sheik from long before Diddy got patched. I never really thought anything of pre-patch Diddy was insurmountable (although he WAS really stupid), and IF Sheik does get canned down the line, I have no intent of discussing Rosalina or ZSS like this at all, mainly because I believe the metagame will be able to reach a climax if that happens. Hopefully that's worth something, although I'm sure there are plenty of people ready and willing to bandwagon if that does end up happening.

Anyway, thanks for the intel. I'll have to give the details on this Dthrow business a good rechecking.
 
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Jerodak

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@ ShinRamen ShinRamen Good point, of things are taken out of hand, then we could end up going the way of Brawls slippery slope arguments in a hurry.

That being said, while I do admit that I would welcome Sheik adjustments if they were made, my chief aim here is to participate in the discussion, and more importantly, to understand the character. This is another reason why my posts are so heavily influenced around counter play.

I figured that if I brought it up then maybe, if I were wrong, which is entirely possible, then someone who understood the character more would be willing to set the facts straight. In fact, thanks to this discussion, I even ended up revisiting my old paradigm and even started to consider some new ideas.

However, if I did come off as whiny or irritating then I do apologize, and thanks for letting me know.
 

Powerman293

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Add a few frames of endlag on some her moves and nerf the range of needles and I'll be fine. Seriously, needles do not need that much range. I was messing with Sheik in training mode today and using them on battlefield, they crossed over at least 50% of the stage. I find that disgusting that Sheik has an automatic dominance over the stage with a projectile that is quickly charged and creates easy punish set ups no matter if you block them or not.

Also, Sheik mains, you're crazy if you don't think Sheik isn't gonna get nerfed one more time.
 
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Gamefreak561

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Add a few frames of endlag on some her moves and nerf the range of needles and I'll be fine. Seriously, needles do not need that much range. I was messing with Sheik in training mode today and using them on battlefield, they crossed over at least 50% of the stage. I find that disgusting that Sheik has an automatic dominance over the stage with a projectile that is quickly charged and creates easy punish set ups no matter if you block them or not.

Also, Sheik mains, you're crazy if you don't think Sheik isn't gonna get nerfed one more time.
She won't get nerfed from what I can tell. She is balanced that is all. I don't mind needle nerf as long as it doesn't affect her air needles. Quick like a ninja and racks up damage with ease in exchange for lack of kill power 120%+. The only kill moves she has are BF and a good uair read or fair off ledge from fthrow and vanish. All of which can be easily dodged with good reaction time or good DI even at high level play. People like you aren't helping the community like this. Either we buff the low tiers or nerf the high tiers. At the rate we (smash 4 community) are in, we are more in favor for buffing low tiers than nerfing high tiers to keep the game balanced.
 

S_B

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If Bowser just jabbed
Ironically, the only thing Bowser can really do against Sheik without getting punished is jab. :\

As for Sheik and the whole balancing act, it's infinitely easier to bring the top tiers down than it is to try and bring all of the bottom tiers up to top tier. Though, Sakurai IS obligated to balance the game around both 1v1 situations and FFA because we have various modes where the game can be played in those circumstances. It's no longer just the competitive scene turning SSB into a 1v1 game. Online 1v1 tournaments exist now, and they need to take those into balance consideration as well.

But honestly, looking at the problems we have with Sheik, I think there's a simpler fix for her than we think...

Break the "tinder combo".

That's right: make it so Sheik can no longer Fair escort players across the stage, be in through making Fair no longer auto cancel or something.

Then, to compensate, buff all of her smash attacks to deal more damage and kill at earlier %, and require less sweetspotting to get the full potency of the hit.

This would actually POWER UP Sheik in casual play while making her a bit more reasonable in competitive play. How often do you even see Sheik's smashes get used in competitive play? They're not THAT slow, they just lack killing power and have generally wonky hitboxes, AND they're just about the only moves of Sheik's that are really punishable on whiff.

I've seen ZeRo use the platforms on BF to land some sweetspotted Usmash kills, but other than that, I rarely see anyone go for smashes, probably because there are always better options for both damage AND KO confirms.

Keep in mind that Sheik still has plenty of other combos: Fthrow to bouncing fish, dthrow to the 50/50, etc. This is just the one combo that I feel makes Sheik such a terror to most of the cast.

What do folks think? Less combo potential in exchange for less NEED to combo via usable smash attacks?
 
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ArikadoSD

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I have an idea to buff Marth.

Remove his sword.

That's right, remove his sword, and give him the same smash attacks as Falcon but make them faster and stronger to compensate for the no range cuz of no sword.

Also dthrow doesn't lead to 50/50, @ S_B S_B
 
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S_B

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I have an idea to buff Marth.
Lousy comparison, even for sarcasm. :p

If Sheiks are leaning as hard on the tinder combo as Marth is his sword, then that basically proves my point...

And after Diddy's hoohaa was toned down, his smashes were buffed to compensate (either in the string connecting better or the damage and KB of Dsmash).

It's not even the tinder's damage that's the biggest problem but its ability to gimp and/or setup for bouncing fish that makes Sheik such a bad matchup for so many characters (like poor, poor LM...).

Heh. He managed to hit a a good number of your pet peeves all at once, huh @ ArikadoSD ArikadoSD ?
Apparently so...
 
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John12346

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Strictly speaking, I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that Sheik should retain all of her frame data throughout the balance updates. It's what makes Sheik... Sheik after all. The nimble ninja who strikes quickly... like a ninja. There are ways to adjust the effectiveness of Sheik's moves without touching the framedata, though. I've mentioned a few of these possible changes in a previous post. Changes that would slightly reduce the overall effectiveness of a Sheik player's gameplan without actually changing what the gameplan should be. That's what's most important IMO when examining what should be changed with a character.

But at the end of the day, do you not agree that her Fsmash and Dsmash could use some touching up? Even outside of some knockback increases, just changes on the hitboxes to make them more consistent/useful too, y'know?

Keep in mind, I'm of the opinion that very little needs to occur in terms of Sheik changes. I don't want to see her castrated or anything like that. Ideally, I would like to see Sheik stay in Top Tier, even as #1 if the devs could manage it, but in a way that she's only SLIGHTLY BETTER than the likes of ZSS and Rosalina, for example. Whoever you think are #s 2 and 3.
 
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S_B

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But at the end of the day, do you not agree that her Fsmash and Dsmash could use some touching up? Even outside of some knockback increases, just changes on the hitboxes to make them more consistent/useful too, y'know?
I like _Tree's idea of reducing the range of Fair simply because it's just WAY too safe right now. Now only does it tinder, but it's just a very safe move to poke with.

And yeah, make the smash attacks not suck for hitboxes.

Pre-nerf, Diddy players were leaning heavily on hoohaa because it was just the best way to rack damage, get kills, and put your opponent at a disadvantage, pretty much everything that the tinder combo does (except BF usually finishes the stock).

Diddy got too much mileage off of a single throw, Sheik gets a bit too much off of a single Fair.

Now, Diddy focuses on good banana play to set enemies up for his (buffed) smash attacks. That's his niche.

Is Sheik's niche REALLY carrying people off of the stage using the same move 6+ times in a row? :p
 

ArikadoSD

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Your comparison is very flawed. The mileage Diddy got from dthrow isn't even close to the mileage Sheik gets from a fair. It's just that they both got mileage. You're not looking at how good the mileage actually is or how useful it would be. Diddy could kill with dthrow uair at 80%. Sheik could get a fair at 80% and... do nothing, just one fair. Maybe if there's not much rage we could get fair > bf but that's only 17% damage and a bit of stage positioning depending on where you did it.
Is Sheik's niche REALLY carrying people off of the stage using the same move 6+ times in a row? :p
yes.
 

S_B

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Your comparison is very flawed. The mileage Diddy got from dthrow isn't even close to the mileage Sheik gets from a fair. It's just that they both got mileage. You're not looking at how good the mileage actually is or how useful it would be. Diddy could kill with dthrow uair at 80%. Sheik could get a fair at 80% and... do nothing, just one fair. Maybe if there's not much rage we could get fair > bf but that's only 17% damage and a bit of stage positioning depending on where you did it.
...Or, as I said earlier, Sheik can use it to push characters off the stage beyond their ability to recover with relative ease, making some matchups insanely one-sided.

Yeah, Diddy got a lot of mileage off of one throw, but at least he had to get a person up high enough in % to land that kill. One Fair combos into guaranteed death for characters like LM.

Then try not to be too surprised if Fair gets nerfed again.

It's clear Sakurai isn't happy with it, and I'm sure he didn't intend for it to be as effective as it is. I'm guessing he's trying to find a balance for it where it'll still be a good move but not negate the existence of certain characters.

Really, we've seen from Ryu the kinds of "combos" Sakurai likes (also Sheik's intro video), and they don't involve using the same move 6+ times on end (not counting the infinite elbow because I expect that's not intended and will be patched at some point, just like Fox's jab carry EVENTUALLY got patched).
 
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MagiusNecros

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You could bring Bowser up to the same level as Sheik currently, but it honestly feels like it'd have to be done in seriously degenerate ways, such as giving him huge amounts of armour on a lot of his moves. Little Mac overall just seems like a really poorly designed character to me. He would need an overhaul on an intrinsic level in order to be made better, which isn't something that can be done just through buffs.
It isn't necessary to give Bowser armor. Just increase the Tough Guy knockback threshold value to match or exceed the threshold a set of needles do by 1 therefore letting Bowser use his passive armor to not worry about Needles until like 60% or some such.

The TG value currently sits at a knockback negation value of 20.

Sheik still deals the damage but Bowser at least has a chance to not have to stop what he is doing and lets him get at least a chance to put in work.

Tough Guy as it is right now is a poorly designed mechanic meaning when it does work it generally ****s over Bowser.

LM Smash attack cheese is disgusting IMO.
 

Athorment

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Either we buff the low tiers or nerf the high tiers. At the rate we (smash 4 community) are in, we are more in favor for buffing low tiers than nerfing high tiers to keep the game balanced.
while that is majorly true here's a crazy idea.... Why not buff low tiers AND nerf/tweak bits of the high tiers?
Diddy Kong had Kill confirms off of a HooHah while Sheik has to put on the work with 6 Fairs >BF. What do you think deserved the urgent patch more?
Diddy Kong got nerfed. YAY! He is still High Tier, but now a Lower tier like Wii Fit Trainer will have a better chance of landing any hit at all on him (Bless fixed hitboxes) with no risk of dying from a Hoo Hah.

No one wants to see a broken character... neither from a Brawl Metaknight side of the spectrum nor a Wii Fit Trainer who can't hit crouching people. Nerf what needs nerfing, While characters get Buffs to catch up.
 

jet56

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just want to point this out, Shiek was not in top 4 at paragon today. ill be honest, i want sheik to be touched up, but just touched up, a needles slight nerf and thats it. leave the rest of her alone, she's a fine character. and this is coming from a mac main, who has a terrible matchup against the character, and whose character was unjustly nerfed because of too many people whining. needles, and done. besides, fair stales so fast, it does 2% after hit 5 i think.
 

MagiusNecros

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Needle nerf is all that is required.

Problem is all the patches do is nerf damage and nerf knockback and vice versa.

So unless they make it do no knockback whatsoever it won't be changed.

Not sure if they would increase the cooldown on build up or endlag.
 
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