smash 4 feels slow, like sf iv vanilla slow

[marvel b]

the speed is actually fast than i thought it would be!!!

 

[Roko Jono]

Speed depends on the player. Someone inexperienced may not know how to speed up their gameplay compared to those who do such as autocancelled moves. That being said, I like the speed. Faster than Brawl with enough time for commentators to commentate on the match (hopefully). I'd say the game is faster than VanillaSF4, maybe its at Third Strike speed if we're comparing those.

Speeding up the game would be a challenge. What would you like to speed up? I can think of...

Ground momentum
Air momentum
Fall speed
Knockback speed
Attack speed
Recovery speed
Everything all at once

That moment you play and people ask, "Are they playing lightning melee?"

 

[KingBroly]

The game feels slower with items off in the demo for me. Why I don't know.

 

[Gidy]

Then your hate isn't pure. :/

My hate for that game is purer than a religion. Competitively I hate Brawl more than I hate Sonic 06. But I still see Smash 4 as a new game.

 

[tttt]

Playing against other people in the demo is way different than just playing against computers. You can't judge the speed of the game just by some stupid computers, man. It feels fine but just not really melee. But that's okay, it is its own game.

 

[Viper Bite]

The speed is ideal for online play where occasional lag interruptions won't disrupt the flow as much. For offline play, I agree with the OP with the idea of increasing it slightly.

 

[Cpt.]

The speed is ideal for online play where occasional lag interruptions won't disrupt the flow as much. For offline play, I agree with the OP with the idea of increasing it slightly.

That is a good point. Perhaps this is why Sakuari didn't want it to be fast.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

The speed of the game is fine, but the lag after a lot of moves and severe lack of hit stun is hard to combo with, the rolling is also too fast IMO, its not the speed that is lacking, just the physics.

 

[RetroBro]

The game feels perfectly fine to me. Don't know why some people are still upset, honestly.

Probably because people look for things to complain about... that or they just have different tastes than you.

The nature of a fan service game will always be people ASKING for more. I don't know why people are so bothered by people being bothered! Just let people complain, or be happy.

 

[Mythra]

The game feels fine and fast for me (not Sanic fast but still fast) especially compared to Brawl, I havent tested the speed in a Human vs Human match but fighting against CPUs really shows the game's faster pace (quick shield drops, rolls, Fast Falling, etc.), you cant say that's is a Melee style fight experience but still is really enjoyable because it feels unique.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

The game feels fine and fast for me (not Sanic fast but still fast) especially compared to Brawl, I havent tested the speed in a Human vs Human match but fighting against CPUs really shows the game's faster pace (quick shield drops, rolls, Fast Falling, etc.), you cant say that's is a Melee style fight experience but still is really enjoyable because it feels unique.

I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, I've played the demo several times with my friends and rolling seems like its going to be a major part of the meta with how often my friends do it with little to no punish.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, I've played the demo several times with my friends and rolling seems like its going to be a major part of the meta with how often my friends do it with little to no punish.

The tricky thing about rolls in this game, especially if you're used to Brawl, is that in SSB4 the second half of the roll animation for most characters is completely lacking intangibility. In exchange though, a roll is in fact a perfect dodge, since the intangibility seems to come out on frame 1. This means you really have to either go for the read, or know for certain that your foe really is in hitstun, or else they'll just roll out of the way.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

The tricky thing about rolls in this game, especially if you're used to Brawl, is that in SSB4 the second half of the roll animation for most characters is completely lacking intangibility. In exchange though, a roll is in fact a perfect dodge, since the intangibility seems to come out on frame 1. This means you really have to either go for the read, or know for certain that your foe really is in hitstun, or else they'll just roll out of the way.

I feel like the lack of hit stun though makes it hard to follow up with a lot of moves, like after hitting link with my down tilt as Mario he was able to just roll away from the forward tilt that followed. I feel like rolling reads may truly only be effective at higher percentages with hard read kill moves.

 

[Thor]

I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, I've played the demo several times with my friends and rolling seems like its going to be a major part of the meta with how often my friends do it with little to no punish.

I know I can roll for days against some people and not get punished because those people are very bad at punishing rolls (as an example, someone once told me they could do 100% to me in the first two minutes of the match - thanks to my combination of rolls, spotdodges, and a few strategic times where I took to the air and airdodging, I was under 20% after two minutes. And I didn't even attack, just shielded and ran away. On FD. As Falco, who is not a fast character. Then I beat them). However, if I fight a good player, roll more than a few times and I'm often eating a partially charged smash attack.

It's a question of being able to predict and punish rolls - as an example, Lucario has an incredibly safe roll in Brawl, all things considered (I believe it is invulnerable frames 3-20, and you can act again on frame 28, meaning you are vulnerable for only 7 frames at the end of the roll, AND he has one of the fastest rolls that is one of the longer rolls as well - there is a reason some people will call lower-level Lucarios Roll-carios, it's because Lucario has the best rolls in the game so many people rely on them too much). Many people who roll a lot have roll habits, so just like any other move, you can bait and punish a roll.

So if Smash 4 players can bait and punish rolls solidly (and players of all the games were able to in 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, Brawl-, Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, and pretty much every other mod), then rolling will not be a major part of the meta. Early on it may be important as some unfamiliarity with the game's roll frame data and general player inexperience in Smash 4 could make rolling seem good, but once people are used to the game and understand the best punishes for rolls, rolling will no longer seem very strong.

My thoughts on the topic; I don't think the game is that slow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkGk5S3nIas - and keep in mind this is a match with... well I won't spoil it but the announcers mention it early into the match).

Yeah this game feels like slow motion to me but it's not a bad game, just not enjoyable in an intense match, matches feel dull, I'm just not feeling hype or satisfaction. I want to like the Game

You should watch at least the first minute of the match above (I'm talking about the actual gameplay, since the video doesn't immediately start with the countdown/match). If it still feels slow, well, keep in mind how they're playing the matchup.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I know I can roll for days against some people and not get punished because those people are very bad at punishing rolls (as an example, someone once told me they could do 100% to me in the first two minutes of the match - thanks to my combination of rolls, spotdodges, and a few strategic times where I took to the air and airdodging, I was under 20% after two minutes. And I didn't even attack, just shielded and ran away. On FD. As Falco, who is not a fast character. Then I beat them). However, if I fight a good player, roll more than a few times and I'm often eating a partially charged smash attack.

It's a question of being able to predict and punish rolls - as an example, Lucario has an incredibly safe roll in Brawl, all things considered (I believe it is invulnerable frames 3-20, and you can act again on frame 28, meaning you are vulnerable for only 7 frames at the end of the roll, AND he has one of the fastest rolls that is one of the longer rolls as well - there is a reason some people will call lower-level Lucarios Roll-carios, it's because Lucario has the best rolls in the game so many people rely on them too much). Many people who roll a lot have roll habits, so just like any other move, you can bait and punish a roll.

So if Smash 4 players can bait and punish rolls solidly (and players of all the games were able to in 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, Brawl-, Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, and pretty much every other mod), then rolling will not be a major part of the meta. Early on it may be important as some unfamiliarity with the game's roll frame data and general player inexperience in Smash 4 could make rolling seem good, but once people are used to the game and understand the best punishes for rolls, rolling will no longer seem very strong.

My thoughts on the topic; I don't think the game is that slow ( - and keep in mind this is a match with... well I won't spoil it but the announcers mention it early into the match).



You should watch at least the first minute of the match above (I'm talking about the actual gameplay, since the video doesn't immediately start with the countdown/match). If it still feels slow, well, keep in mind how they're playing the matchup.

That match does change my perspective quite a bit of the pace of the game, however I do agree with the commentators that the K.O boxes on all the stages should be shortened drastically, and vectoring should just be changed out with DI again, it might just be because me and my friends play Link and Villager mostly, who are rather campy characters.

 

[Ffamran]

I think it's fine since it's not as erratic as Melee or as sluggish as Brawl. Still, it might be because we as players evolve over time and looking back, things that were slow or fast was due to our skill in them. For example, Melee's and Devil May Cry 3's fall speed felt ridiculously fast. Considering Melee's not realistic and DMC3's main character is a mothereffing half-Devil, you'd expect them to "hover" or have much more air time.

Then comes Brawl and DMC4 where things felt a bit sluggish. Brawl in general was slow and that made slow characters even slower. DMC4's combat was designed for one character: Nero and his playstyle is bit more straightforward, but rhythmic - his sword, Red Queen, works like Squall's gunblade. With most of the game focused on him, it made DMC4 feel slower than DMC3 where you could teleport almost everywhere while DMC4 was more grab and pull or grab and rush in. Dante's combat just felt off since the enemies weren't designed for him, but he retains that fast gameplay style, but more like Sonic in Brawl where they basically chipped enemies to death while Nero fought normally like say, Snake or Sheik.

Now, we have SSB4 and DmC: Devil May Cry where speed is between the past two (extreme) games. It's not fast nor is it slow. Gameplay was balanced so that everyone works on everyone, though how effective depends on the character. For example, Ganondorf can fight everyone, but let's say Sonic's way too fast and annoying for him or that Rosalina's range-game is difficult for him to get in and dish out damage King of Evil-style. Likewise, Dante wouldn't work on Vergil-specific enemies well - he can't even fight them without hacking the game - nor would Vergil fare well against enemies where you have to grab them since Vergil lacks Ophion. Otherwise, ignoring exclusive enemies, they'd fare well, but different play-styles calls for different approaches.

Skill level. Oh, imagine jumping into Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening. For those unaware: the Japanese version had "normal" difficulties; easy was easy, normal was normal, etc. In the US and probably overseas, all the difficulties were ramped up; easy was normal, normal was hard, hard was Dante Must Die, etc. That's like getting thrown in, but playing that game and learning more makes DMC4 easier which leads to DmC being much easier which was a part of development since DmC wanted to reach a broader audience, so it was easier compared to past games, but that didn't it was a cake walk.

Every games, sport, or challenge is like that. A previous or related challenge will prepare you for the next. Playing Zelda, Mario, Metroid, SSB, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Fire Emblem, etc. all makes future games that much easier. I remember relying on a guide for Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, but with Twilight Princess, Darksiders - a weird mixture of Zelda, DMC, God of War, and more -, and Skyward Sword, I just went in and felt this rhythm or was aware of the patterns in Zelda games. Metal Gear prepared me for shooters and stealth games - it was my main schtick of sneaking in during Bad Company 2 multiplayer. You get this feeling; this awareness of how to respond to patrols, line of sight, etc. Splinter Cell when I first played it was horrible, but recently, I went through just fine. Also, Ninja Gaiden's not that hard if you had previous hack 'n' slash, fighter game experience, or know exploits. Demon's/Dark Souls? I take a "stealth approach"; caution always. If I played horror games, I think I would have done the same with Demon's/Dark Souls as I did with stealth games.

The game's not that faster. Granted, it is faster than Brawl. You, however, are "faster".

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I think it's fine since it's not as erratic as Melee or as sluggish as Brawl. Still, it might be because we as players evolve over time and looking back, things that were slow or fast was due to our skill in them. For example, Melee's and Devil May Cry 3's fall speed felt ridiculously fast. Considering Melee's not realistic and DMC3's main character is a mothereffing half-Devil, you'd expect them to "hover" or have much more air time.

Then comes Brawl and DMC4 where things felt a bit sluggish. Brawl in general was slow and that made slow characters even slower. DMC4's combat was designed for one character: Nero and his playstyle is bit more straightforward, but rhythmic - his sword, Red Queen, works like Squall's gunblade. With most of the game focused on him, it made DMC4 feel slower than DMC3 where you could teleport almost everywhere while DMC4 was more grab and pull or grab and rush in. Dante's combat just felt off since the enemies weren't designed for him, but he retains that fast gameplay style, but more like Sonic in Brawl where they basically chipped enemies to death while Nero fought normally like say, Snake or Sheik.

Now, we have SSB4 and DmC: Devil May Cry where speed is between the past two (extreme) games. It's not fast nor is it slow. Gameplay was balanced so that everyone works on everyone, though how effective depends on the character. For example, Ganondorf can fight everyone, but let's say Sonic's way too fast and annoying for him or that Rosalina's range-game is difficult for him to get in and dish out damage King of Evil-style. Likewise, Dante wouldn't work on Vergil-specific enemies well - he can't even fight them without hacking the game - nor would Vergil fare well against enemies where you have to grab them since Vergil lacks Ophion. Otherwise, ignoring exclusive enemies, they'd fare well, but different play-styles calls for different approaches.

Skill level. Oh, imagine jumping into Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening. For those unaware: the Japanese version had "normal" difficulties; easy was easy, normal was normal, etc. In the US and probably overseas, all the difficulties were ramped up; easy was normal, normal was hard, hard was Dante Must Die, etc. That's like getting thrown in, but playing that game and learning more makes DMC4 easier which leads to DmC being much easier which was a part of development since DmC wanted to reach a broader audience, so it was easier compared to past games, but that didn't it was a cake walk.

Every games, sport, or challenge is like that. A previous or related challenge will prepare you for the next. Playing Zelda, Mario, Metroid, SSB, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Fire Emblem, etc. all makes future games that much easier. I remember relying on a guide for Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, but with Twilight Princess, Darksiders - a weird mixture of Zelda, DMC, God of War, and more -, and Skyward Sword, I just went in and felt this rhythm or was aware of the patterns in Zelda games. Metal Gear prepared me for shooters and stealth games - it was my main schtick of sneaking in during Bad Company 2 multiplayer. You get this feeling; this awareness of how to respond to patrols, line of sight, etc. Splinter Cell when I first played it was horrible, but recently, I went through just fine. Also, Ninja Gaiden's not that hard if you had previous hack 'n' slash, fighter game experience, or know exploits. Demon's/Dark Souls? I take a "stealth approach"; caution always. If I played horror games, I think I would have done the same with Demon's/Dark Souls as I did with stealth games.

The game's not that faster. Granted, it is faster than Brawl. You, however, are "faster".

Since the games were using in this thread is SF I'd imagine that Melee is the third strike in this situation

 

[JUr]

Or maybe you are moving too fast!

Personally I think that the speed of the game is fine and contributes to the general feel of smoothness that makes Smash4 so fun to play...

I think that you don't need to fight to do moves (due to lagginess like in Brawl or a short window of input like in Melee), instead you must know your character and fight with the other people playing...

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Or maybe you are moving too fast!

Personally I think that the speed of the game is fine and contributes to the general feel of smoothness that makes Smash4 so fun to play...

I think that you don't need to fight to do moves (due to lagginess like in Brawl or a short window of input like in Melee), instead you must know your character and fight with the other people playing...

Though it may be true that the simplicity makes it more oriented around knowing your character, the simple lack of available tech and hitstun still leaves it lacking in room for combo creativity, I feel like this game is the Street Fighter 4 of this franchise, were its scene is more based around mind games rather then crazy combos and tech skill. This game I can see having an amazing competitive scene. But Third Strike like Melee, will continue to be played for years to come.

 

[Ffamran]

Since the games were using in this thread is SF I'd imagine that Melee is the third strike in this situation

More like Nth Strike, am I right, or am I right?

Or maybe you are moving too fast!

Personally I think that the speed of the game is fine and contributes to the general feel of smoothness that makes Smash4 so fun to play...

I think that you don't need to fight to do moves (due to lagginess like in Brawl or a short window of input like in Melee), instead you must know your character and fight with the other people playing...

Don't go too fast or else you'll end up like Sonic or what almost happened to the Flash in Justice League. A world of cardboard they say.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

More like Nth Strike, am I right, or am I right?


Don't go too fast or else you'll end up like Sonic or what almost happened to the Flash in Justice League. A world of cardboard they say.

Sonic was going to be in Melee but he accidentally flew out of it.

 

[Japsy]

Am I the only person who thinks the speed needs to be slightly increased?

Air speed is mediocre, and the fact that you dont carry momentum into jumps is bull****, but other than that it feels fine

 

[Ffamran]

Sonic was going to be in Melee but he accidentally flew out of it.

More like he ran pass the competition. He was so fast that he wasn't visible to anyone and if he did touch someone, the momentum from his speed would instantly kill not KO, but KILL them. Sonic didn't want to risk that, so he watched and picked-up some tricks on fighting them.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Air speed is mediocre, and the fact that you dont carry momentum into jumps is bull****, but other than that it feels fine

How the **** am I suppose to fly at people with my Knee now! Falcon was this awesome loose cannon and ever since brawl they took away his gunpowder!

More like he ran pass the competition. He was so fast that he wasn't visible to anyone and if he did touch someone, the momentum from his speed would instantly kill not KO, but KILL them. Sonic didn't want to risk that, so he watched and picked-up some tricks on fighting them.

He saw how slow brawl was, and saw it as his opportunity to join the fight.

 

[Japsy]

How the **** am I suppose to fly at people with my Knee now! Falcon was this awesome loose cannon and ever since brawl they took away his gunpowder!

Yeah it's dumb, momentum into jumps is platforming 101, just look at any classic Mario or Sonic game. Just a reminder that you will never be able to pull cool **** like this off again in Smash Bros:

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Yeah it's dumb, momentum into jumps is platforming 101, just look at any classic Mario or Sonic game. Just a reminder that you will never be able to pull cool **** like this off again in Smash Bros:

I can understand wave dashing since that wasn't exactly suppose to be part of the game, but taking out something that is a fundamental in a plat former style game like smash bros is just blasphemy. Taking out momentum doesn't just get rid of combo potential, but it also just gets rid of a lot of what made characters fun to play as, flying falcon punches were cool as ****!

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah it's dumb, momentum into jumps is platforming 101, just look at any classic Mario or Sonic game. Just a reminder that you will never be able to pull cool **** like this off again in Smash Bros:

Not as bad as Watch_Dogs. Basic physics is completely ignored there. Just look up the train video and how water does not react to bullets when stuff like that happened on the Nintendo 64!

 

[Reila]

No, the speed is perfectly fine. It isn't ridiculous and studipdly fast like Melee, but it isn't slow like Brawl. It is perfectly balance between Brawl and Melee. It is very close to the speed of the original (aka the best) game in the series.

In comparison 4 is more of a successor to Brawl than to Melee.

I agree and that is a good thing.

 

[thatoneguy1]

It's what Brawl should've been imo.

came in to post this lol. maybe we can play in lightning and pretend it's melee.

 

[Tino]

Speed feels great to me. It's definitely faster than Brawl.

 

[kaliskonig]

The speed is fine I think. Not to slow like Brawl and not to fast like Melee. Unless you were expecting Melee levels of speed I don't think the speed is an issue for most.

 

[Awake514]

The game feels perfectly fine to me. Don't know why some people are still upset, honestly.

Unfortunately because its not a HD Melee...

I enjoy this game way more then I do Melee.

 

[ZombieBran]

I laugh at the thought that Melee is "too fast". It isn't hard to follow what's happening.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

It wasn't exactly that Melee was just faster , but it was just easier to get kills in general. The fact that you have to get to like 150% to kill is bs, hense why this one is 3 stock compared to 4. This game is again going to be much more mindgame oriented, were Melee is much more style oriented.

This game is a ton of fun to play but like third strike again, Melee isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[ZombieBran]

It should be noted that the issue isn't the speed of movement or attacks.
Like the poster above said, the overall speed of a match is just slow. Kills are harder to get than ever.

It's not a terribly bad thing, but it is noticeable.
I will enjoy this game but I will certainly not drop Melee for it.

 

[TheAnvil]

People need to take the nostalgia goggles off.

 

[ZombieBran]

People need to take the nostalgia goggles off.

"People like a different game more? Must be nostalgia!"
Yep. Nostalgia is definitely why Melee has outlived Brawl, even before Smash 4.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

People need to take the nostalgia goggles off.

Nostalgia doesn't affect my opinion on any of the games, I've played brawl recently and I've played Melee recently, and the only thing Brawl has on Melee is better graphics and more characters, every thing else is just fundamentally worse.

Heck I played smash 64 after I played Brawl and Melee, and I still like that one more then Brawl.

 

[Thor]

Yeah it's dumb, momentum into jumps is platforming 101, just look at any classic Mario or Sonic game. Just a reminder that you will never be able to pull cool **** like this off again in Smash Bros:

I actually did that in Brawl once - kneed them offstage, ran to the ledge, RAR to get facing backwards, reverse Falcon Punch them out of their Falcon Dive (dittos). It was completely unnecessary and then I recovered to the ledge then SD'd right away to see if the game hadn't been too long to record it, but it had It was still my greatest Smash moment pretty much ever.

It's not actually a combo in any of the games (very specific percents/properly L-cancelled and nearly frame-perfect in Melee and PM is the only way to do this, and that's very, VERY hard so I barely count that...), but you're correct that it's easier to do in Melee than in the other games (but in Smash 4 it should be easier to come back onstage after attempting the Sacred combo).

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I actually did that in Brawl once - kneed them offstage, ran to the ledge, RAR to get facing backwards, reverse Falcon Punch them out of their Falcon Dive (dittos). It was completely unnecessary and then I recovered to the ledge then SD'd right away to see if the game hadn't been too long to record it, but it had It was still my greatest Smash moment pretty much ever.

It's not actually a combo in any of the games (very specific percents/properly L-cancelled and nearly frame-perfect in Melee and PM is the only way to do this, and that's very, VERY hard so I barely count that...), but you're correct that it's easier to do in Melee than in the other games (but in Smash 4 it should be easier to come back onstage after attempting the Sacred combo).

Now that sounds incredibly awesome, but that still doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to keep the speed you had running into a jump. C.Falcon use to fly…. like a Falcon, now he just kinda jumps pretty high, like a falcon?