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Smash 3DS Smash 3DS AI: the Good, the Bad, and the Just Plain Dumb

Casey_Contra

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Hello Smashers!

I've been playing the hell out of the smash 3DS demo, and one thing that really sticks out to me is the... interesting computer AI. I usually play with CPUs on levels 7 or 8 (or a combo of both), but find that different characters seem to be on completely different levels. For example, Mario and Pikachu are amazing - Pika is really good at using lightning and Mario is an edge guarding savant. Mega Man, on the other hand, is horrendous. He fails to recover from the shortest distances. I'll be on one side of the stage fighting Link or whomever, and then I'll just hear the Mega Man KO noise from across the stage (where he was alone).

Anyone else have any observations about Smash 3DS AI? I would love to hear from someone with the full game!
 

Wasserwipf

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I play against Level 9 only, but I can tell one thing. Prepare for Powershields, perfekt Rolls and ... can you call that "power-counter". Since thoes three things come out so fast in the game, the CPU simply reads your inputs and responds perfectly to it. However, sometimes they change things up and start beeing combo fodder. I dunno what the devs thought when they created them.

Another thing I noticed, the AI airdodges out of hitstun as soon as possible (hitstun cancel with airdodge). Once you figured that out, killing the CPU is really easy... hit them, wait for the Airdodge, and hit them again. You can 0 to Death them like that... easely.
Just one thing... watch out for counters.
 

Burnsy

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Why would you cheese the AI just to beat them? That's a waste of time, it don't make you any better.
 

Casey_Contra

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Why would you cheese the AI just to beat them? That's a waste of time, it don't make you any better.
Exactly! I like to work my way up to get better. The frustrating thing is when I choose random on level 8 I'll get either an appropriately difficult Mario or a Mega Man that might as well be level 4 or 5. Once it actually comes out I'll mostly be playing with other people, but it's still interesting to look for any other AI quirks - hence the creation of this thread.

For example, I noticed that whenever I shoot someone with Mega Man's side B they just kind of stop and shield until the blow up.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Something I've noticed about Smash 4 AI is that they're frequently inept with projectiles. Like, they're great with Mario's Fireballs, using them to cover their approaches and retreats and whatnot, but give them a Mii Gunner with Neutral Special 2 and they'll occasionally pop off a single shot instead of trying to get spacing and spamming it. Hint: That move pushes the foe back slightly without causing hitstun at all, so it's not the kind of projectile you want to fire one at a time. It's the kind where you spam it from maximum range to tack on as much damage as possible before the foe closes in again. I mean, I can see the merit to firing a single shot in close quarters under certain circumstances, such as to push Marth out of range as he goes for a tippered Forward Smash, but since it entirely lacks hitstun it's not a move you just throw out every now and then in close range. (And even if you are using it to narrowly avoid a Forward Smash from Marth, you may as well fire a second shot while he's in endlag.)

And even with a Mii Gunner with the default Neutral Special, the CPU will do stupid things with it like just partially charging it whenever and then using it close-range to tack on damage instead of their FAir. That's a kill move and/or "get away from me move", you idiot CPU! It's not a spam attack! Essentially, they spam both Neutral Specials the same way when neither of them are designed for that kind of use.

On another note, CPU Lucina likes to throw out empty Dolphin Slashes, leaving her highly punishable. This is probably a good thing, considering it's the only time you have a free shot at her without being hit with a perfectly-timed Counter.
 

Malkior7

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the CPUs seem much easier in this one (at least for me) in Brawl I could barely win against them but in this one I almost always win
 

Wasserwipf

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Why would you cheese the AI just to beat them? That's a waste of time, it don't make you any better.
Various reasons... learning possible strings, what works together (lagg/delay wise), etc. (You can train that because your "faking" a correct read of a human, maybe compare it to techchasing an opponent who always techs the same direction. After all, it improves your skill)
And spacing, because you still need to space your aerials correctly.
Timing, cause they will airdodge as soon as they can, however, you don't know when they can airdodge, but doing this you learn when wich character can move again at what percentage.
And off course, learning the timing of an enemy airdodge, and when theyre vulnerable after it.

Are those enough reasons or do you need more?
 

Reila

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The level 9 CPU is cheap as hell, I have a hard time beating them with Mega Man and Villager. I don't remember having trouble with CPU even in the hardest difficulties in Brawl. I am not complaining though, I love me some challenge in vidjea games.
 

Code Bread

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I find the hardest level 9 to be Pikachu. When I play all it does is roll, thunder, standard a. It would be easy if it didn't read my inputs automatically and roll perfectly, but it does. Well, it's more obnoxious than difficult.

Level nines are very useful for learning combos, since they try to airdodge as soon as they can, you know when opponents will be able to escape.
 

PKPizza

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I'm not sure whether I'd really call the AI in this game good or not... I'm no Smash expert, but having exhausted myself fighting level 9 AI opponents in the Japanese version of the game, I've definitely noticed a lot about them.

As far as reacting to your moves goes, the AI in Smash 4 is probably around the best. The CPU players will read your button inputs and react instantly. They'll turbo mash out of grabs, perform perfect blocks on point blank attacks, and aim/time their attacks to match every little move you make. For instance, I've attempted to smash-attack Meta Knight, only for him to use his down-B on the very frame my attack started, causing him to disappear just in time for my attack to miss and then counter attack. Another example: Yoshi will react to your directional input when throwing eggs and ALWAYS aim perfectly with inhuman anticipation and accuracy. If the CPU is controlling a character with a counter move or reflector, they WILL abuse it to borderline unfair levels thanks to their ability to read your inputs. Fighting Little Mac (especially on his home stage) is an absolute nightmare thanks to this.

The computer players will commonly punish you with grabs and take advantage of the ending lag for your attacks. They will also edge-guard you, with some characters like Meta Knight chasing you in the air to the edge of the screen. I've seen occasions where they SD, but it doesn't happen too often.

Overall, the CPUs can be difficult to kill thanks to their immediate reflexes and quick ability to counter you. However, they have their fair share of stupid moments as well.

If you're fighting someone with a projectile, they will often spam it endlessly and will usually pay no mind to barriers. Mario will still likely keep shooting fireballs at Ness if he's using PSI magnet. They also have pretty terrible spacing judgment at times. Characters who have to charge projectiles don't seem to be very smart about rolling out of their charge to avoid an attack, and some characters are just plain stupid with the attacks they spam. Sheik leaves herself horribly wide upon trying to use her side-B, and Ganondorf loves spamming his down-B, which is easily punished.

If the computer-controlled character is far away from you and doesn't have a projectile or attack they like to spam, they will often just stand or walk around as if wondering what they should do. I've been able to fully charge Robin's thunder spell while Meta Knight just stood in one spot...

The AI can also be pretty stupid with their recovery moves. Sometimes, when they're knocked high into the air and being chased with aerial moves, they'll just randomly use their recovery move, leaving themselves to fall helplessly and be severly punished. They also seem to prioritize dodging before counter-attacking when being chased, so if you're edge-guarding them, they'll often just take it to the face.

It sometimes seems as though the AI isn't always aware of the differences between the characters they're controlling. I've had Ike try and punish me with a smash attack which may have worked if he were Mario, but his is so slow that I easily punished his attempted punish! Also, the CPUs aren't very careful around the Villager's tree or Pacman's fire hydrant (which has the force of a smash attack if it's sent flying), often resulting in them getting killed by these things.

Anyway, that's my ridiculous essay for the day...
 

PikaSamus

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Mega Man keeps trying to use his missile (forgot name) to recover. :\
 
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HipsandChips

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Just attack them in the air, they always use their air dodge right away, so you can juggle them easily with Mario's u air or Megamans U air
 

Enigma14

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Level 9 Mario is savage. He has perfect play AI and it keeps me on my toes. He's also a combo master and I just have trouble with him lol

The other AI are alright. The only one I think has issues is Pikachu and thats only because it can't recover all that well AI wise.
 

K-45

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The new AI puts up a fight I swear they read your inputs cuz they shield at the perfect time. Once in a while they will make a stupid mistake and kill themselves with low or 0%.

I can't w8 for the amiibos to come out I'm sure if u think they are 2 easy now just try and face a level 50 amiibo.

I will admit I lost the FIRST few times fighting them but at this point I'm able to beat all the level 9 CPU's with anyone (in the demo)
 
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PlayerOneTyler

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I did a whole lot of nothing at work today, so I had a lot of time to spend with the Demo. Link is my Demo main, so I just played as him with a bunch of 1v1 matches of random characters on level 9.

Mega Man is literally stupid. Don't even get me started. I was able to get kills in at like 30%-40%.

Villager is easy enough to edge guard against because he seems to use his Gyroid as a recovery, then he falls down, and I just send him back in the direction he came from over and over with the AAA combo. The only thing that was annoying is that he kept using this combo where he'd grab and down throw, then down smash (shoveling me into the ground), then when I'd inevitably pop up, he'd use his up smash (fireworks) on me.

Pikachu was pretty difficult. We were pretty even. He spams Thunder like crazy, but even worse, he spams Thunder Jolt. I heavily rely on Link's dash attack (the new jumping swing), and Thunder Jolt cancels it even in mid attack. My saving grace was my Bow and Arrows. If I could get him off the side, I was able to edge guard with those, believe it or not, and if he recovered, I'd get under him and up smash.

Mario was a PAIN IN THE BUTT. He spams the HELL out of the Fireballs, which apparently take priority over Link's entire moveset. I had to continuously shield, and could hardly get hits in. I was occasionally able to grab him with the Hook Shot, but he breaks free so quickly. Needless to say, I never won against Mario, but I've had a few sudden deaths. That counts for something right?

Link vs Link is impossible, never doing it again.
 
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Joe73191

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Another thing I noticed, the AI airdodges out of hitstun as soon as possible (hitstun cancel with airdodge).
I thought that it was confirmed that you can't cancel out of hitstun?

As far as fighting cpu's, fighting a level 9 is okay once in a great while for fun, but making sure you get your muscle memory down on your combos against lvl 1s is how you become more consistent.
 

DJ3DS

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Level 9 Villager seems to use his Gyroid absurdly often and rarely deals with it being caped. Level 9's in general feel much stronger fighting on the ground than in the air - in the air they are comparatively weak and spiking seems by far the easiest way to get a kill against them overall.
 

bc1910

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Why would you cheese the AI just to beat them? That's a waste of time, it don't make you any better.
I know those of us that only have the demo (myself included) have no other option for the most part, but I'd argue that fighting the AI at all is basically a waste of time (in any Smash game) whether you cheese them or not. They have impossibly fast reactions but also make mistakes that a human player would never make, and no matter how much you try to avoid doing so you will fall into a "beat the AI" playstyle. I don't think fighting the AI ever really makes you better.

I think fighting the AI is useful for getting to grips with the game and definitely helpful in getting your head round the controls, though.
 

SirIanAsh

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It took me 4 hours to beat link as link level 9 in brawl, now I beat everyone pretty easily... The game is awesome though!
 

HeavyLobster

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Level 9 Villager seems to use his Gyroid absurdly often and rarely deals with it being caped. Level 9's in general feel much stronger fighting on the ground than in the air - in the air they are comparatively weak and spiking seems by far the easiest way to get a kill against them overall.
Overall, level 9s seem to be much better designed than in previous games, but their recoveries are still an area of weakness. They always have the same predictable and punishable recovery and airdodge patterns, even though they're great at punishing your mistakes and shielding everything. While they do reward skill and smart play more than in previous iterations, they still leave much to be desired as training partners.
 

SirIanAsh

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Oh and by the way, lvl 9's DO NOT stop shielding, they make the game really fun. QUICK TIP! if I want to go on training mode I just put mario on level one and he just walks around and doesn't really punch you, lvl 1's are REDICULOUSLY EASY!!!
 

Fire Tactician

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Some Lv 9s are pretty good, such as Pikmin and Olimar/Alph who just relentlessly throws Pikmin and grabs and just overwhelms me. Then, there are the ones like the Wario I just faced, who started the match off with his standard combo about five times at a distance from be and let me pelt him with three Thorons before he even attempted an approach.

Also, Luma's AI really needs to step its game up. Can Lumas even dodge? If so, they're doing a terrible job at it. Most of the time I attack Rosalina, she dodges or puts her shield up. Luma is too slow (or unable?) to dodge/shield so it keeps getting sent careening off the field way too early.
 

backlot

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If level 9 Megaman ever gets hit off stage with a leaf shield up he falls to his death pretty much every time. The AI must not be smart enough to get rid of the leaves before trying to recover.
 

Fire Tactician

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If level 9 Megaman ever gets hit off stage with a leaf shield up he falls to his death pretty much every time. The AI must not be smart enough to get rid of the leaves before trying to recover.
Those leaves are such a hassle. I can hardly get rid of them in time for Rush to even be effective.
 

TheNin10doUltra

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I find Lvl 9 CPU's running from me. It's annoying and don't know why lol
 
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Substitution

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In terms of Mario, the easiest way I found to defeat him (with Mario) is to Cape his Fireballs, use D-Thows, punish accordingly, and hope to God you live when off the edge (the only way I found to counter him sitting close to the edge is to use Super Jump Punch in a way where you miss the ledge and end up hitting him instead).

Mario was a PAIN IN THE BUTT. He spams the HELL out of the Fireballs, which apparently take priority over Link's entire moveset. I had to continuously shield, and could hardly get hits in. I was occasionally able to grab him with the Hook Shot, but he breaks free so quickly. Needless to say, I never won against Mario, but I've had a few sudden deaths. That counts for something right?
Oh just you wait. I've found that Link is really vulnerable to Down Throw + U-Tilt x2-3 + U-Smash/Super Jump Punch/Down Throw. I've been able to get him into the 40%-50% percents. And that's only the beginning.
 
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fearless.leader

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omg those little mac counters.. its actually brutal if you dont resort to some sort of cheap trick to beat them.
 

TroperCase

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Speaking as someone who plays a lot but doesn't strive too hard to master all the ins-and-outs...

After almost an hour with the demo playing lvl 9s, I'm finding them easier with items, harder without (Omega Mode in the demo). Mega Man on Omega Mode is actually the one I've had the most trouble against, so far.

The good - they nicely toe the line of being MK Walker-ish (shielding\rolling\attacking\countering with precise timing) without actually being nearly as annoying as that and delivering a good variety of attacks.
The bad - Well, recovery is a mixed bag, as is edge guarding. They also fail to take advantage of your current condition (e.g. if you're helpless).
The just plain dumb - Bombs (Bob-ombs specifically). in my experience they're really bad with these. They've always been I guess, but they're definitely no better here.

I'm having a lot of fun on Omega, YMMV. I haven't looked for ways to out-and-out exploit their behaviour yet either.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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Demo impression: CPU players wiggle out of grabs, daze, and pitfalls way too quickly. I grabbed a Level 4 CPU Pikachu as Mario when Pikachu was at 50% damage, and he escaped before I could complete a single pummel. I DSmashed Level 4 CPU Mario as Villager at around 40%, and he wiggled out before I could hit him with FTilt. They regularly escape Boss Galaga when already at over 60% damage before being grabbed.

Pikachu always recovers high. if you get him to the right spot, he will always Quick Attack straight up and then straight horizontally. It's really easy to take advantage of it as Mario. Wait right where Pikachu is about to come in and just start charging an Up Smash as soon as he starts Quick Attack. He will fall right into it.

Overall though, CPU levels in this game are actually pretty clever, aside from their ridiculous skill with reflectors and grab escapes. Low-level CPUs tend to act like actual competitive players with poor reaction time, which actually serves to train the player into playing intelligently. Like a Level 4 CPU will put their shield up slightly too early to get a perfect shield, and will then hold it out for you to pressure it for a bit. They'll hang onto the ledge for a little while after their ledge invincibility ends, allowing you a wider window to poke them off.
 

bigbro2233

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I find the Level 9 CPUs to be pretty challenging, always rolling around and using perfect shielding. Honestly, it's a change I like, it keeps you on your toes. For once, the CPUs feel like real rivals, but still not at the level of advanced players.

Also, the Level 1 CPUs are just dumb. Only once in two minutes did they try to attack me, I was able to plant three Trees as Villager before they even walked up to me.
 

VKatana

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It seems to me like Level 6 CPUs are the most realistic training for fighting against actual players, or maybe Level 7s. Level 8 and 9 CPUs are more defensive than any player would be, whereas 6 and 7 tend to be a little more aggressive with attacks and recoveries while also defending.
 

rodroid321

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During sudden death, when I use Link, i just charge my bow all the way and the CPU's just walk up to me and I shoot them in the face with my bow and they die. Even the ones with projectiles :/
 

K-45

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It seems to me like Level 6 CPUs are the most realistic training for fighting against actual players, or maybe Level 7s. Level 8 and 9 CPUs are more defensive than any player would be, whereas 6 and 7 tend to be a little more aggressive with attacks and recoveries while also defending.
He's 100% right the computers do play a little more human when on level 7. I feel playing computers on levels 8,9 will force u to learn bad habits when the full game comes out. The habits u learn from facing level 9 players won't be to useful when u face another human player.
 
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