Shulk Smash Mode K.O. Percents

[Nammy12]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but here's a general list of when Shulk's moves kill (lightning effects) when he's in Smash mode.

All of these were tested on Wii U FD on level 3 CPU's. First from the center of FD and then from their starting positions.
Blastzones on the Wii U versions are smaller compared to the 3DS so you'll need about 5%-10% more on the 3DS version.

Smashes were uncharged, but Up-smash was sweet-spotted.
Charging the smash, sweetspots, rage, freshness, DI, crouching and positioning will all be variables in a real match.
Also, I may be off by a couple percents. (Particularly the throws due to positioning)

Heavyweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-109%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-97%

Up Smash-84%

Down Smash-101%

Forward Tilt-138%

Air Slash-132%

Back Air-130%

Back Slash (Front)-159%

Back Slash (Back)-100%

Dash Attack-130%

Up Tilt-123%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-86%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-77%

Up Smash-84%

Down Smash-77%

Forward Tilt-111%

Air Slash-102%

Back Air-102%

Back Slash (Front)-128%

Back Slash (Back)-81%

Dash Attack-130%

Up Tilt-123%

Down Throw-158%

Back Throw-145%

Mid-heavy:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-98%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-86%

Up Smash-80%

Down Smash-92%

Forward Tilt-125%

Air Slash-121%

Back Air-117%

Back Slash (Front)-144%

Back Slash (Back)-92%

Dash Attack-128%

Up Tilt-121%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-78%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-69%

Up Smash-80%

Down Smash-70%

Forward Tilt-101%

Air Slash-92%

Back Air-93%

Back Slash (Front)-116%

Back Slash (Back)-73%

Dash Attack-128%

Up Tilt-121%

Down Throw-142%

Back Throw-133%

Midweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-94%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-82%

Up Smash-75%

Down Smash--88%

Forward Tilt-119%

Air Slash-115%

Back Air-111%

Back Slash (Front)-104%

Back Slash (Back)-138%

Dash Attack-120%

Up Tilt-114%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-74%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-65%

Up Smash-75%

Down Smash-79%

Forward Tilt-96%

Air Slash-92%

Back Air-88%

Back Slash (Front)-111%

Back Slash (Back)-70%

Dash Attack-120%

Up Tilt-114%

Down Throw-136%

Back Throw-126%

Mid-light:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-84%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-74%

Up Smash-72%

Down Smash-81%

Forward Tilt-109%

Air Slash-110% (CPU set to Jump)

Back Air-102%

Back Slash (Front)-127%

Back Slash (Back)-80%

Dash Attack-118%

Up Tilt-112%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-67%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-60%

Up Smash-72%

Down Smash-66%

Forward Tilt-88%

Air Slash-86% (CPU set to Jump)

Back Air-81%

Back Slash (Front)-102%

Back Slash (Back)-63%

Dash Attack-114%

Up Tilt-112%

Down Throw-129%

Back Throw-119%

Lightweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-79%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-70%

Up Smash-57%

Down Smash-74%

Forward Tilt-101%

Air Slash-87%

Back Air-94%

Back Slash (Front)-117%

Back Slash (Back)-74%

Dash Attack-95%

Up Tilt-90%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-62%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-55%

Up Smash-57%

Down Smash-57%

Forward Tilt-81%

Air Slash-79%

Back Air-75%

Back Slash (Front)-95%

Back Slash (Back)-58%

Dash Attack-95%

Up Tilt-90%

Down Throw-117%

Back Throw-107%

 

[MarioFireRed]

This is some pretty neat info. I'll be sure to keep this in mind when going for the kill.

 

[Masonomace]

I dig this Nammy as this helps a lot, but I'm curious with your lab testing involving F-smash, D-smash, F-tilt, & B-air.

All of those moves have sweet & sourspots but the damage difference is minimum by ~1 - 3%. Though the knockback increase of Smash I feel is what will make the slight difference of % damage between sweet or sourspotting the moves a much larger difference, but for example:

D-smash 1st hit sweetspotted uncharged deals 14% x 0.5 x 1.00 = 7%
D-smash 1st hit sourspotted uncharged deals 11% x 0.5 x 1.00 = 5.5% aka 5%

Idk the knockback values of the sweet & sourspot of D-smash 1st hit but yeah.

EDIT: I also nominate B-throw & D-throw to be on the list to cover our greatest KO throws.

Disregard my Edit, I'm dumb. I'm surprised D-throw isn't our best KO throw with Smash on, but at the same time we probably use B-throw a lot for the damage so we end up staling it thus D-throw is fresh if we don't use it.

 

[Nammy12]

I dig this Nammy as this helps a lot, but I'm curious with your lab testing involving F-smash, D-smash, F-tilt, & B-air.

All of the moves above have sweet & sourspots, & the difference is minimum because of slightly weaker percentages by ~1 - 3% & the range of the move spaced or not affected the knockback, but for example:

D-smash 1st hit sweetspotted uncharged deals 14% x 0.5 x 1.00 = 7%
D-smash 1st hit sourspotted uncharged deals 11% x 0.5 x 1.00 = 5.5% aka 5%

Idk the knockback values of the sweet & sourspot of D-smash 1st hit but yeah.

EDIT: I also nominate B-throw & D-throw to be on the list to cover our greatest KO throws.

Disregard my Edit, I'm dumb. I'm surprised D-throw isn't our best KO throw with Smash on, but at the same time we probably use B-throw for the damage so we end up staling it thus D-throw is fresh if we don't use it.

I'm pretty sure I got the sweetspots (its the blade right?), the only one I'm not totally sure is with Air slash on the lighter characters since they kind of float out of it unless they're jumping. I'll double check tomorrow.

Also, back throw kills earlier in these tests since I'm grabbing them with the edge to my back so there is technically less distance to send them.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm pretty sure I got the sweetspots (its the blade right?), the only one I'm not totally sure is with Air slash on the lighter characters since they kind of float out of it unless they're jumping. I'll double check tomorrow.

Also, back throw kills earlier in these tests since I'm grabbing them with the edge to my back so there is technically less distance to send them.

Yeah the red blade in all of those attacks are the sweetspot area so I think you got the sweetspots of the moves correct (It varies, because visually the Blade & Beam aren't exactly accurate with their location in the attacks. F-tilt & U-tilt are mostly spot-on, but F-smash's sourspot is near the tip of the Beam, & D-smash's sourspot in the 1st hit is barely outside the range of the red blade spinning around isn't as spot-on), & Air Slash does have a sourspot in the first hit but I'm not sure if the 2nd hit has a sweet or sourspot that may affect the lighter characters from escaping it. The augmented knockback from Smash mode makes this difficult too.

The B-throw positioning makes sense, even the slightest amount of distance due to direction-facing alters. Perhaps scooting them back a bit to get in their position near the ledge would optimize the accuracy of the KO percentages, albeit the difference of positioning would only slightly affect it by a ~1 - 2% margin so it may not matter that much. Technically every % counts, but eh.

 

[MarioFireRed]

Just for fun I tested out some more throws on those same characters in Smash Art (default special). I tested this out on the 3DS in normal FD so remove around 5% if you're doing this in the Wii U.:

Heavyweight

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 245%

BThrow - 206%

DThrow - 219%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 220%

UThrow- 267%

Mid-Heavy

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 220%

BThrow- 190%

DThrow- 197%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 193%

UThrow- 264%

Midweight

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 208%

BThrow- 184%

DThrow- 191%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 190%

UThrow- 243%

Mid-light

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 188%

BThrow- 168%

DThrow- 173%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 167%

UThrow- 242%

Lightweight

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 178%

BThrow- 161%

DThrow- 159%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 162%

UThrow- 195%

 

[erico9001]

So that's why I KO'd little mac so early today... he was at the edge at ~70% and I ko'd him with forward smash.

Btw F-Smash does kill earlier if tilted up.

 

[Nammy12]

So that's why I KO'd little mac so early today... he was at the edge at ~70% and I ko'd him with forward smash.

Btw F-Smash does kill earlier if tilted up.

I'll have to retest f-smash tomorrow.

 

[Masonomace]

Just for fun I tested out some more throws on those same characters. I tested this out on the 3DS in normal FD so remove around 5% if you're doing this in the Wii U.:

Heavyweight

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 245%

BThrow - 206%

DThrow - 219%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 220%

UThrow- 267%

Mid-Heavy

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 220%

BThrow- 190%

DThrow- 197%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 193%

UThrow- 264%

Midweight

Middle of FD

Spoiler

FThrow- 208%

BThrow- 184%

DThrow- 191%

Edge (starting position)

Spoiler

FThrow- 190%

UThrow- 243%

I'll do Mid-light (Mac) and Lightweight (Puff) later.

Ahh I dig the Vanilla KO %s. Though 'd be salty if a Vanilla Shulk KO'd me with U-throw. That's so much disrespect xD.

More importantly, B-throw vs D-throw on Bowser is a much larger % gap than Ike & Mario. I'm interested to see the even lighter character's results. Because of these numbers, I'm starting to think about using other throws besides B-throw unless Buster is active, so that I keep B-throw fresh.

 

[MarioFireRed]

Updated with Mac and Puff info. I forgot to mention all of these kill percents are taken in normal Smash MArts.

 

[Masonomace]

Nice, I find it interesting that lighter weight characters have a less diminish between using B-throw or D-throw, while Heavies are more prone to be using B-throw for the KO over D-throw.

MatchUp wise, this really helps me decide what Throw to keep fresh against Heavy or Light characters. Thank you @ Nammy12 & @ MarioFireRed to the max. Even if the % difference is slight, a strong throw like B-throw to deal a good 12% fresh & deal more knockback than D-throw is favoring me to use B-throw less, or unstale B-throw quicker. I'll abuse B-throw on Lightweights, & finish with D-throw no problem; for Heavies I'll rely on more F-throwing generally, D-throwing with Speed or Buster, U-throw with Jump or Buster, & use Smash for securing B-throw KOs. It feels so right now~

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I'm interested in finding out when Shulk can KO a D3 or a Bowser Jr. Will you be completing the list sometime in the future?
Knowing the percents could really help me out.

Really cool information, by the way.

 

[Nammy12]

I updated the info and included F-smash tilted up. I didn't think that there would be THAT much of a difference but wow...
(I need to start tilting my smashes more)
I'll do F-smash tilted down tomorrow.
I also wouldn't mind doing the rest of the characters (I like this kind of stuff for some reason) but it'll have to wait until the weekend.

 

[Mike444]

how does fsmash tilted down affect it? What's the benefits of using each? Also, what's the easiest way to input it using the c-stick?

 

[erico9001]

Tilted down should do the same knockback as untilted (unless something changed with v1.04). Tilted down can hit people on the edge and crouched jiggly/kirby/etc.

You need to be careful with tilted up since characters can crouch under it, but it has much more knockback. It obviously is better at hitting aerial opponents.

 

[Masonomace]

how does fsmash tilted down affect it?

tilting the F-smash downwards influences the knockback to launch them more downwards than it would normally or upward.

What's the benefits of using each?

F-smash tilted upwards KO's sooner than a regular F-smash without any tilt influence. It also works pretty well on Light characters who "pop" up more than the heavier characters do.

F-smash without any tilt is standard without benefits. Just a regular launch

F-smash tilted downwards can be used specially for edge-guarding, because the Beam shooting out can poke characters hanging on the ledge. If a character has poor horizontal recovery, use this tilted smash to ruin their chances. And iirc F-smash tilted downward doesn't grant more knockback than the regular F-smash.

Also, what's the easiest way to input it using the c-stick?

Easiest way for the F-smashes with the tilting is to be flicking or holding the C-stick sideways for the charge, but holding up or down on the control stick meanwhile to make it tilt up or down.

Visual: or + or

EDIT: Erico 'd me, although to follow-up from what he mentioned, F-smash tilted upward can easily hit taller characters even if they try crouching in hopes to avoid the hit.

 

[erico9001]

tilting the F-smash downwards influences the knockback to launch them more downwards than it would normally or upward.

F-smash tilted upwards KO's sooner than a regular F-smash without any tilt influence. It also works pretty well on Light characters who "pop" up more than the heavier characters do.

F-smash without any tilt is standard without benefits. Just a regular launch

F-smash tilted downwards can be used specially for edge-guarding, because the Beam shooting out can poke characters hanging on the ledge. If a character has poor horizontal recovery, use this tilted smash to ruin their chances. And iirc F-smash tilted downward doesn't grant more knockback than the regular F-smash.

Easiest way for the F-smashes with the tilting is to be flicking or holding the C-stick sideways for the charge, but holding up or down on the control stick meanwhile to make it tilt up or down.

Visual: or + or

EDIT: Erico 'd me, although to follow-up from what he mentioned, F-smash tilted upward can easily hit taller characters even if they try crouching in hopes to avoid the hit.

Oh, downward changes the angle though? Good to know.

I had a thought from some Shulk dittos I had a few days ago: Might F-Smash untilted have the best horizontal range? If the beam length was constant as the sword got more of an angle, the attack would have less horizontal distance. It matters on whether or not they purposefully extended the hitbox to account for this or not.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh, downward changes the angle though? Good to know.

I had a thought from some Shulk dittos I had a few days ago: Might F-Smash untilted have the best horizontal range? If the beam length was constant as the sword got more of an angle, the attack would have less horizontal distance. It matters on whether or not they purposefully extended the hitbox to account for this or not.

Physics-wise tilting it would make it shorter, but every time I use F-smash tilted downward, it looks so deceptive that I feel it has more range than a regular F-smash. O_o

EDIT: It would also vary on the character you're hitting, with their hurt-box involved & such; perfect example of why a F-smash angled upward would have more range than a regular F-smash would be from hitting a Yoshi because aiming for it's big nose. A slender yet tall-ish character like Zero Suit Samus or WFT would have little change, but if they were to crouch, F-smash tilted downward would surely reach a distance further beyond.