Should Zelda be buffed?

[Luminario]

Yes, for many reasons YOU can't explain. It seems like all you can do is complain without even backing up your assumption with any solid reasoning other than "because she is at the bottom of the tier list". Get back at me when you can perform an actual argument.

Also, you are correct. I don't use Zelda and yet I can actually come up with better reasoning. Funny how that works isn't it.

Oh for ****s sake. I'll just chime in here to end this.
Zelda has terrible aerials of you miss the sweet spot
she has predictable specials and a very punishable recovery
she has smash attack that can be SDI'd out of easily
she is slow, floaty, and tall
all of her attacks are either terrible or have too much knockback and so she can't combo reliably.

She is terrible when it comes to competitive play but a lot of fun when it comes to casual fights (this is coming from someone who picks Zelda as their second in command, right after Peach)

 

[ChickenWing13]

Oh for ****s sake. I'll just chime in here to end this.
Zelda has terrible aerials of you miss the sweet spot
she has predictable specials and a very punishable recovery
she has smash attack that can be SDI'd out of easily
she is slow, floaty, and tall
all of her attacks are either terrible or have too much knockback and so she can't combo reliably.

She is terrible when it comes to competitive play but a lot of fun when it comes to casual fights (this is coming from someone who picks Zelda as their second in command, right after Peach)

1) Increase her Uair and Dair hitbox
2)Stated that already in previous post
3)I don't remember being able to DI out of any of her smash attacks
4)Already stated she should be faster/ of course she's floaty she is a princess/ What does height have to do with it. Besides there are plenty of characters taller than her who have no issue.
5) Saying all her moves are terrible is a pretty bold statement. What? She has plenty of combos ex. (Usmash>Nair>Fair) (Dtilt>Fair/ Dtilt>Fsmash>Din's Fire) Ftilt can also lead to plenty of follow-ups as well and I'm sure they're more.

That's 4 buffs she could use. Overall I think she's a solid character and I've seen many players (Brawl specifically) do well with her. I'm pretty sure it just depends on the player.

 

[TimeSmash]

Combos in Brawl? Teehee

 

[ZombieBran]

1) Increase her Uair and Dair hitbox
2)Stated that already in previous post
3)I don't remember being able to DI out of any of her smash attacks
4)Already stated she should be faster/ of course she's floaty she is a princess/ What does height have to do with it. Besides there are plenty of characters taller than her who have no issue.
5) Saying all her moves are terrible is a pretty bold statement. What? She has plenty of combos ex. (Usmash>Nair>Fair) (Dtilt>Fair/ Dtilt>Fsmash>Din's Fire) Ftilt can also lead to plenty of follow-ups as well and I'm sure they're more.

That's 4 buffs she could use. Overall I think she's a solid character and I've seen many players (Brawl specifically) do well with her. I'm pretty sure it just depends on the player.

1. Not enough. She needs to be able to combo into upair. Also, guess what, that is a buff! So I suppose you do agree she needs buffs.
2. kay
3. It doesn't matter what you remember. It's a known fact. This only reinforces my belief that you have little idea what you're talking about with Zelda.
4. Wow. Princess = floaty. Kay. Being tall, light, and floaty is a crappy combination. Zelda has terrible character stats, it's a fact. Easily knocked out, descends to the floor slowly, and is an easy target to hit. How can you not see the issue? The best we can hope for is that she returns to her Melee weight (basically light but not as light). Most other tall characters weigh considerably more than Zelda. Falcon, Link, Snake, etc. All much heavier, so you can't compare her with most tall characters.
5. lolno. Her moves, besides very few outliers (dsmash and dtilt??) are pretty bad in most circumstances.

I'll make this even simpler. Zelda was previously designed as a bait and punish character. The issue being that her bait (Din's) is awful and her punish is predictable, laggy, and escapable even when landed. Now, it's being said that you can't escape her multi-hitting moves in Sm4sh. I sure hope so.

 

[ChickenWing13]

1. Not enough. She needs to be able to combo into it. Also, guess what, that is a buff! So I suppose you do agree she needs buffs.
2. kay
3. It doesn't matter what you remember. It's a known fact. This only reinforces my belief that you have little idea what you're talking about with Zelda.
4. Wow. Princess = floaty. Kay. Being tall, light, and floaty is a ****ty combination. Zelda has terrible character stats, it's a fact. The best we can hope for is that she returns to her Melee weight (basically light but not as light). Most other tall characters weight considerably more than Zelda. Falcon, Link, Snake, etc. All much heavier.
5. lolno. Her moves, besides very few outlliers (dsmash and dtilt??) are pretty bad in most circumstances.

I'll make this even simpler. Zelda was previously designed as a bait and punish character. The issue being that her bait (Din's) is awful and hre punish is predictable, laggy, and escapable even when landed. Now, it's being said that you can't escape her multi-hitting moves anymore. I sure hope o.

1] Nah, it's enough. Pretty sure she could combo into it, try again. I restated that she needed buffs in my earlier posts. You clearly weren't paying attention.
2]kay kay
3]If it is as known as you make it out to be then provide some evidence. Or do other SWF have to do it for you?
4]Thank you for proving my point =)
5]Again no evidence to back up your statement. Just utter ignorance.
6] Glad you can count. Guess you're not as dumb as I thought. Congratulations

I'll make this even simpler. Zelda was previously designed as a bait and punish character. The issue being that her bait (Din's) is awful and her punish is predictable, laggy, and escapable even when landed. Now, it's being said that you can't escape her multi-hitting moves in Sm4sh. I sure hope so.

Well in that case hopefully they change what doesn't need changing. Good luck with that.

 

[Luminario]

1] Nah, it's enough. Pretty sure she could combo into it, try again. I restated that she needed buffs in my earlier posts. You clearly weren't paying attention.
2]kay kay
3]If it is as known as you make it out to be then provide some evidence. Or do other SWF have to do it for you?
4]Thank you for proving my point =)
5]Again no evidence to back up your statement. Just utter ignorance.
6] Glad you can count. Guess you're not as dumb as I thought. Congratulations


Well in that case hopefully they change what doesn't need changing. Good luck with that.

Okay I don't really think this discussion is getting anywhere. Technically WE are the evidence since we (or at least I) play Zelda extensively and know her strengths and (many many) weaknesses.
If you don't believe us about the SDI thing then try it out for yourself. Her smash attack are so easy to get out of, they're like a smaller smart bomb explosion.
There is a reason she's at the bottom of the tier list. She needs buffs like combo potential and reliable moves. You mentioned a few combos a while ago but they're unreliable in the competitive scene.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Okay I don't really think this discussion is getting anywhere. Technically WE are the evidence since we (or at least I) play Zelda extensively and know her strengths and (many many) weaknesses.
If you don't believe us about the SDI thing then try it out for yourself. Her smash attack are so easy to get out of, they're like a smaller smart bomb explosion.
There is a reason she's at the bottom of the tier list. She needs buffs like combo potential and reliable moves. You mentioned a few combos a while ago but they're unreliable in the competitive scene.

*Says discussion is going nowhere yet continues to have the same discussion*

My final verdict was that Zelda does need some buffs in a few areas. I don't see why this is even still a conversation lol. I'm gonna drop the ball here but you guys can continue to play with it if you like. Good day

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

*enters the thread*

Ok ok, I'm glad that you think she needs buffs, but... Leave it to the mainers. I mean, if you don't remember that her Smashes are escapable through SDI and if you think she have good combos, there's clearly a lack of knowledge of the character

 

[Luminario]

*Says discussion is going nowhere yet continues to have the same discussion*

My final verdict was that Zelda does need some buffs in a few areas. I don't see why this is even still a conversation lol. I'm gonna drop the ball here but you guys can continue to play with it if you like. Good day

Yeah I was kinda going against my own point.
A FEW areas? so more than just the recovery? we got through to you~

*enters the topic*

Ok ok, I'm glad that you think she needs buffs, but... Leave it to the mainers. I mean, if you don't remember that her Smashes are escapable through SDI and if you think she have good combos, there's clearly a lack of knowledge of the character

I love that gif. its just... so stupidly dramatic.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Yeah I was kinda going against my own point.
A FEW areas? so more than just the recovery? we got through to you~

I mention the increased hitboxes on her aerials and her becoming a faster character (if that helps at all). Go back and read my posts.

*enters the thread*
Ok ok, I'm glad that you think she needs buffs, but... Leave it to the mainers. I mean, if you don't remember that her Smashes are escapable through SDI and if you think she have good combos, there's clearly a lack of knowledge of the character

It's pretty hard to believe when I can't see it for myself.

 

[ZombieBran]

What a waste of time.

I'm not going to constantly post known facts for you when you can find them yourself. You admit to not knowing Zelda and yet you continue to disagree with several Zelda mains on facts that we have known for years. I've added you to my ignore list to save some time in the future.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the altered air dodge may have indirectly buffed her Din's Fire.

Since you suffer lag if you dodge too close to the ground, it can be great for punishing wanton jumping.

And if they try to rush you on the ground you've got the Phantom.

 

[ECHOnce]

I think the altered air dodge may have indirectly buffed her Din's Fire.

Since you suffer lag if you dodge too close to the ground, it can be great for punishing wanton jumping.

And if they try to rush you on the ground you've got the Phantom.

Good point, but given that Dins still have senselessly long endlag, we wont really be able to punish their laggy air dodge anyhow

 

[meleebrawler]

Good point, but given that Dins still have senselessly long endlag, we wont really be able to punish their laggy air dodge anyhow

??? Are you trying to say Din's Fire recovers too slowly to follow up with?

Well, you're probably right but it can still force the opponent to watch their jumps lest they get predictable and roasted.
And we all know what happens when you try to jump right at her on the ground.

 

[.Shìkì]

Good point, but given that Dins still have senselessly long endlag, we wont really be able to punish their laggy air dodge anyhow

Saw the "weaker" Dins kill someone at like 95% from midstage on Boxing Ring Omega Form. Why combo out of it when you can simply punish with an attack that KILLS? I mean landing the sweetspot on a character standind still should be doable for most people...

 

[ECHOnce]

Saw the "weaker" Dins kill someone at like 95% from midstage on Boxing Ring Omega Form. Why combo out of it when you can simply punish with an attack that KILLS? I mean landing the sweetspot on a character standind still should be doable for most people...

Really not sure where you saw that, but if that's true, it was prob the sweetspot, and...idk how far away it was, but if it wasn't close to Zelda, then the enemy should have had ample time to react appropriately. If it was read well, the sweet. Maybe it'll even be something we could do consistently...against someone a few matches until they adapt. Maybe that's all we'll need to make it through a few tournies. But ppl will learn the meta against that over time, and sooner or later, we won't get reads like that.

Also for the record, non-sweetspot dins have set-knockback, meaning that they do the same amount of knockback regardless of %, so yeah. They are weaker, afaik. There's vids of her barely missing sweetspots in sudden death, and the opponent doesn't even get launched high enough to land on the top platform of battlefield. That's pretty weak if you ask me, considering non-sweet spotted dins could kill around 100% ish if in the air in brawl. Easily dodged there, but the point is...KB-wise, they're fairly weak. Maybe the sweetspots nice, but that thing is TINY, and when something's already so easy to dodge, adding on extra difficulties doesn't really fly as all that swell when evaluating one's options.

 

[.Shìkì]

Really not sure where you saw that, but if that's true, it was prob the sweetspot, and...idk how far away it was, but if it wasn't close to Zelda, then the enemy should have had ample time to react appropriately. If it was read well, the sweet. Maybe it'll even be something we could do consistently...against someone a few matches until they adapt. Maybe that's all we'll need to make it through a few tournies. But ppl will learn the meta against that over time, and sooner or later, we won't get reads like that.

Also for the record, non-sweetspot dins have set-knockback, meaning that they do the same amount of knockback regardless of %, so yeah. That are weaker, afaik. There's vids of her barely missing sweetspots in sudden death, and the opponent doesn't even get launched high enough to land on the top platform of battlefield.

It was the sniping Dins and he didn't even hit from that far away. You can't stay that far from a character standing right in the center of FD Boxingring, anyway.

 

[ECHOnce]

It was the sniping Dins and he didn't even hit from that far away. You can't stay that far from a character standing right in the center of FD Boxingring, anyway.

Vid or vod with the time provided would be nice, if you remember it or know where to find it. I'm all for being proven wrong about it being bad >>

Also didn't add much, but you quoted my post right before I was done editing it lol. Not trying to be inconsistent or anything, just a heads up.

 

[.Shìkì]

Vid or vod with the time provided would be nice, if you remember it or know where to find it. I'm all for being proven wrong about it being bad >>

Also didn't add much, but you quoted my post right before I was done editing it lol. Not trying to be inconsistent or anything, just a heads up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofv8fvTs4V8&t=6m10s

Here ya go. Chauzu posted this earlier, its him playing at a little online tournament.

 

[Chauzu]

Yeah that really surprised me. I'd been trying to hit it the whole match and I thought I did a few times but the hitbox on that custom move is kinda odd... And small.

But even so I think it is viable (and probably the best option?). It's so fast, it can travel from one end of Gaur Plains to the other in mere seconds. And as we saw in the vid it can obviously still kill if it hits.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Oh wow, that was you? ha I watched that vid but didn't make the connection to your username. Good matches!

 

[Chauzu]

Oh wow, that was you? ha I watched that vid but didn't make the connection to your username. Good matches!

ty was fun to get a chance to use the custom moves. Can't wait for the game to be out worldwide and being able to have more regular tournaments online with custom moves.

 

[.Shìkì]

Yeah that really surprised me. I'd been trying to hit it the whole match and I thought I did a few times but the hitbox on that custom move is kinda odd... And small.

But even so I think it is viable (and probably the best option?). It's so fast, it can travel from one end of Gaur Plains to the other in mere seconds. And as we saw in the vid it can obviously still kill if it hits.

I noticed that you had a hard time getting it to hit or even close to people offstage though, because it lacks horizontal movement. Also should make hitting the sweetspot even harder. I'd guess it really depends as what you want to use it as. Some people had really questionable custom moves in that tournament though, Robin using the explosive Arcfire against Pikachu instead of the zoning/trapping/combo-starting normal one made me cringe.

 

[Chauzu]

I noticed that you had a hard time getting it to hit or even close to people offstage though, because it lacks horizontal movement. Also should make hitting the sweetspot even harder. I'd guess it really depends as what you want to use it as. Some people had really questionable custom moves in that tournament though, Robin using the explosive Arcfire against Pikachu instead of the zoning/trapping/combo-starting normal one made me cringe.

Yeah I'd never really used the move before haha so wasn't sure how to use it properly.

And I remember that Robin. Standard Arcfire is stupidly good (I remember M2K calling it broken) and replacing it was facepalm worthy.

 

[.Shìkì]

Yeah I'd never really used the move before haha so wasn't sure how to use it properly.

And I remember that Robin. Standard Arcfire is stupidly good (I remember M2K calling it broken) and replacing it was facepalm worthy.

If M2K calls that "broken", I can't imagine what he'd call pikachu getting access to a paralyzing thunderjolt... Or Ganondorfs custom moveset-options, for that matter. Oh well, i really hope that custom moves will become legal and that they don't split the scene in "with customs" and "without customs". Those Brawler-Miis looked quite fun and strong, and it really gives players options. Not sure how i should feel about custom equipment though... A Ganondorf rocking +12 Speed - 12 Attack might just be a bit annoying. also the variations of boosts/statlosses seem just so huge...

Oh well, at least the characters I am going to main are good, but not too good X) At least from what I've seen so far.

 

[ECHOnce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofv8fvTs4V8&t=6m10s

Here ya go. Chauzu posted this earlier, its him playing at a little online tournament.

Yeah that really surprised me. I'd been trying to hit it the whole match and I thought I did a few times but the hitbox on that custom move is kinda odd... And small.

But even so I think it is viable (and probably the best option?). It's so fast, it can travel from one end of Gaur Plains to the other in mere seconds. And as we saw in the vid it can obviously still kill if it hits.

Suddenly I'm 10x more supportive of (viable) custom moves. Would anyone happen to know the changed properties of her custom specials, or at least for dins?

 

[Chauzu]

Suddenly I'm 10x more supportive of (viable) custom moves. Would anyone happen to know the changed properties of her custom specials, or at least for dins?

Well I have made a vid showing of all of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwoOo_0QQ8

But I'm happy to do more tests if there is something in particular to check, although some things can be hard against CPU's.

 

[ECHOnce]

Well I have made a vid showing of all of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwoOo_0QQ8

But I'm happy to do more tests if there is something in particular to check, although some things can be hard against CPU's.

; ^; bootiful. Also noticed how Farore's Wind Drop let you move horizontally immediately after you reappeared in the helpless stage. Would you happen to know if the other two versions of her up-B do so as well? That'd be huge for her recovery game. 2nd variation of down-B could be good as...basically a weird and more limited version of marth's shield breaker as shield pressure (in a game with meh-ish shields already), and the 3rd is just one more kill move for Zelda...but it's faster than some others and (correct me if I'm wrong) seemed to not get roy zoned when you walked right up to the cpu and used it. Do the others get roy zoned when up close, am I just misunderstanding it, or is it just unique from the others in that way?

But...din residue...oh nintendo. Not really trying to hide any similar ideas shared with a certain non-nintendo developed smash game huhu. Don't mind at all. But that Nayru's explosion thing...whaaaaat