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Should transexuals be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice?

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Lore

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On November 23rd, a transexual woman was arrested for using the ladies' room. The source that I have for this isn't the best, but the comments are absolutely hilarious (and nsfw, I guess), so I'll post it. You can always check some other news site for confirmation.
http://bossip.com/311457/random-ridiculousness-******-55555/

This incident brings up a controversial topic: should transgendered people be able to use the bathroom of their choice?

I'm going to side with the pro-choice option, but I do not have time to post a lengthy OP with my reasons. I'll just jump in after someone else posts, if no one minds.
 

Amide

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This is actually a good topic, so I'm a little surprised at the lack of replies. It's a tricky issue, for sure. I do think that transexual women are less likely to feel safe in a men's bathroom than a woman's, so I think that they should choose where they feel safest going. Some may say "But what if a guy just wants to go to the girls bathroom to see. . . You know?!" but I find that really silly, unlikely, and it's not like they'd see anything anyway.
 

th3kuzinator

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But it apparently is a big deal if an individual was arrested for it. In places where unisex bathrooms don't exist, what is an accurate indicator for determining which sex bathroom should be used? Actual gender or preferred sexual preference?

I would actually be inclined to say the former, as the latter delves into the subjective and is much harder to regulate.
 

Evil Eye

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There's no such thing as "actual gender". Gender is a lot more about your personal mentality or perspective, hence "gender identity disorder" and all that. Your sex, on the other hand, is biologically defined, and a constant through your life. There's one actress, I forget the name, that is a transexual. Had extensive surgeries many years ago, pretty much doesn't even slightly resemble a man anymore, and generally plays characters that are biologically female, even with nude scenes! So that's a woman, right?

However, her sex is male. She is biologically male. This constant will not change.

So, to direct the flow of conversation a bit, I think the central issue is pretty apparent. Should designated bathrooms be governed by sex, or by gender? The prevalence of unisex lavatories, I feel, would suggest that they should be governed by gender, and not sex. That will be my stance unless someone tables an argument against it that I find logical, or that proves the existence of unisex washrooms to be either irrelevant or an objectively poor invention.
 

ballin4life

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Um ... transsexual = changed sex

Also how are you defining sex in a fashion that is unambiguous in all cases? If it's based on organs, then this transsexual actress would count as female. If it's based on chromosomes (which is dubious to begin with) then what about people who have XXY chromosomes?
 

KrazyGlue

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Um ... transsexual = changed sex
I think the word is just a mislabeling of what transsexualism actually is. Though you would be correct in your definition if you just combine the word parts "trans" and "sexual", the actual dictionary definition of transsexual is "an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their biological sex". EE is correct in his usage of "gender" and "sex".

Also how are you defining sex in a fashion that is unambiguous in all cases? If it's based on organs, then this transsexual actress would count as female.
Not necessarily. If I recall correctly, a sex change operation from, for example, a male to a female involves inverting the penis to form a vagina. Though this inverted penis mimics a vagina, the person would still not have ovaries, fallopian tubes, or a uterus, so they would not have the same biological functions of reproduction that a regular female would have.

I think "gender" vs. "sex" is a pretty unambiguous definition. I would also have to agree that bathrooms should be determined by gender, not sex. If a person has changed their gender, they should be allowed to identify with that. They wouldn't undergo a gender change operation just to go into the opposite sex's bathroom and harass them. It would actually be more awkward if a transsexual were forced to go into the bathroom of their original gender, as they could face harassment there.
 

Teran

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Um ... transsexual = changed sex
No it isn't.

Male to female involves cutting the penis and turning it inside out (crude description but that's what it is in a nutshell), along with extensive hormone replacement to grow breasts and soften features.

Female to male is basically a masectomy and lots of testosterone. If she wants a penis, only a prosthetic one can be placed, but otherwise the individual will always have a vagina.

Genetically, a MTF will always be XY, even if the person looks just like a woman, has breasts and a convincing vagina, the individual is still XY, thus making them biologically male no matter what, and vice versa for a FTM.

Basically, unless somehow someone's entire biology can be changed, they will always be born with a sex that is constant throughout their entire life. This is what EE was saying, but I thought it'd be nice to spell it out.
 

ballin4life

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I think the word is just a mislabeling of what transsexualism actually is. Though you would be correct in your definition if you just combine the word parts "trans" and "sexual", the actual dictionary definition of transsexual is "an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their biological sex". EE is correct in his usage of "gender" and "sex".
I've always heard of a distinction between "transsexual" and "transgender".

I'm still curious what your actual definition is, especially given hermaphrodites and XXYs.
 

Teran

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Well transgenders are people who identify themselves as the opposite gender, but still have the anatomical features of their sex.

Transexuals are post op transgenders who are more anatomically like the gender they indentify with.
 

Evil Eye

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He already gave you the definition -- transsexualism simply isn't what its name implies. You cannot change your sex. It's in your DNA. It's in your anatomy (penis vs vagina isn't a single percentile of the issue!). It's in so many things that are completely and irrevocably out of our control with current technology, and likely will remain as such into the far and foreseeable future.

Males and females are born as a particular sex -- male or female. They also have an attached gender, essentially by default. Now, if I decide that I am female, right now, my sex will not change to female. Personally, I would argue that my gender would not have changed yet, either, but I'm not sure where the actual objective crowd lies with that term. But my present understanding is that I'd be a man with gender identity disorder.

So I get an operation, called a "sex change". However, as unpopular as this opinion may be from a politically correct point of view, a sex change is not a change of your biological sex. It's simply a change of the sex that you portray. An actualization of your gender. You are female, for all (or, I guess, most) intents and purposes, but you have not changed your biological sex. However, I do think at this point you should (and can, if I have the law right in my head) be legally considered as having changed your sex.

But biologically, it can't be done. I studied forensic anthropology last year -- there are untold dozens of ways to determine your sex just from your bones. Somehow I doubt we'll ever be able to change that.

I'm not sure what your point is with hermaphrodites and XXYs. The fact that complications exist doesn't mean that in the case of XX female and XY male, things aren't exactly as clear-cut as biologists and geneticists would suggest. It bears mention that the very wikipedia article you linked to specifically refers to them as "XXY males" in its entirety. In the abstract at the very beginning, it explicitly states that Klinefelter's Syndrome "is the most common sex chromosome disorder in males", and even cites this sentence onward to a presumably scientific textbook. The primary characteristics are small testicles and fertility difficulties. The most likely feminine trait I can find is a slight increase in breast tissue (believe it or not we dudes have breasts too). Did you read your source before you used it?

Here's the most telling quotation:

In mammals with more than one X chromosome, the genes on all but one X chromosome are not expressed; this is known as X inactivation. This happens in XXY males as well as normal XX females
In other words, the extra X chromosome represents, to them, potential health risks or deformities, and they are otherwise just a regular ol' male. I don't know if you just thought that because females are XX and males are XY then XXY must be indefinable, but it isn't, and your own source showed that. So, thanks for doing that research for me. It was an interesting read.

As for hermaphroditism, the condition is exceedingly rare, and simply looking at the causes makes it clear that this is an abnormality that defies conventional logic, and therefore also does nothing to shun it. Have a looksee:

It can be caused by the division of one ovum, followed by fertilization of each haploid ovum and fusion of the two zygotes early in development.

Alternately, an ovum can be fertilized by two sperm followed by trisomic rescue in one or more daughter cells.

Two ova fertilized by two sperm will occasionally fuse to form a tetragametic chimera. If one male zygote and one female zygote fuse, a hermaphroditic individual may result.
Thus I conclude standing firmly on my earlier definitions of both sex and gender, and all the implications of my original post on this subject.
 

ballin4life

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XXYs are referred to as male because they have male sex organs (one could just as easily think of them as "female with an extra Y chromosome"). But if your definition is based on organs, then changing one's sex organs would change one's sex. I also think that there are cases of people with XY chromosomes that grew up female due to some strange circumstances, but whatever.

Anyway, my point is that you are just playing a definition game. I don't really care whether you call them male or female or whatever else.
 

GoldShadow

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XXYs are referred to as male because they have male sex organs (one could just as easily think of them as "female with an extra Y chromosome").
This is not a correct assumption.

XXY are not "females with a Y chromosome."

Anything with a Y chromosome is male, as the Y chromosome contains the genes that are activated during gestation to create a male fetus. Essentially, the "default" sex and morphology for a human is female. Once you add the Y chromosome, however, the SRY genes cause differentiation of fetal tissues to create a male organism, regardless of how many Xs you throw in there.

Also, there is no such thing as a human hermaphrodite (ie, intersex) in the sense that you are thinking of, but AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) might come closest to what you're referring to.

With AIS, the fetus does not respond to sex hormones secreted during development and thus, does not fully develop sex characteristics. This can range anywhere from mild to severe. If the individual has an XY genotype, then they might have genitals that are only partially masculinized, or they might have a full-on female phenotype (ie, outwardly, they are woman because again, the default sex without certain types of intervention from a Y chromosome is female). Interestingly, these XY individuals with strong AIS are outwardly female, but because of the presence of the Y chromosome (which does still have influence) they have testes NOT ovaries; also, they don't have a uterus. So in this case, they may be genotypically male but phenotypically female, at least, on the outside. However, this isn't really hermaphroditism because they don't have sex organs of both sexes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_Insensitivity_Syndrome

Ultimately, however, it's not just a definition "game". The definitions are very clear and, well, defined. Anybody with a Y chromosome is genotypically male, ie, their sex is male.
 
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