Should Pokemon Stadium be banned?

[Captain Phobos]

The main problems I see with Pokemon Stadium are the stuck spots where you can easily put at least 200% on your opponent, and the occasional glitch where you fall through the floor. I would be fine with Pokemon Stadium being legal if stages like Yoshi's Island 64 and Venom were legal, but they're not :\

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Well, the stage is a counterpick for a reason. and have such cloying advantages here. For example, master Fox being able to infinitely drill shine y'all to death on the ground or fire layouts or that his main finishers are more effective here due the somewhat low ceiling. But thankfully the layouts appear at random and that they are temporary. So no, it shouldn't be banned.

 

[-ACE-]

I wouldn't mind if it was banned, but in a perfect world there wouldn't be any transformations. The initial transformation adds a useful dynamic to the stage list with no upper plat. Without PS, FD is your only choice of eliminating the upper plat.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Also, the side platforms are much further from the edges than other stages. But not being able to see yourself under the ledges is pretty bad.

 

[-ACE-]

not being able to see yourself under the ledges is pretty

I hate that!

 

[Smashplayer11]

Look the reason venom and Yoshi's island are not it's bc venom has unfair stage hazards and Yoshi's island walls are wayyyyyyy to big and the clouds don't help. In my opinion Pokémon stadium is fine and landing an infinite. Combo is hard so if you get it you deserve it. And also if there is 1 stage that should be legal it's Kongo jungle 64.

 

[SquidKid]

A big ding against Stadium is how Pikachu can infinitely jab in the rock pit.

 

[Divinokage]

I'd ban that stage in a heartbeat. It's not because it gives an advantage to spacies but because there's no more mix-ups or movement happening when the stage transforms to the fire or mountain stage. You literally have to sit there for 40 seconds before anything else can happen. It sucks for the viewers and for the definition of being able to fight fairly. It's also why games often get drawn out to 5 mins + for that reason.

 

[Rockenos]

PLEASE ban this freaking stage. There's absolutely no reason for it to be legal. It's a counterpick stage primarily for Fox and Falco, who are already insanely good characters. The stage list is VERY biased against floaties currently. In terms of fast fallers vs floaties, fast fallers have 2 strong counterpicks (typically yoshis and pokemon) whereas floaties only have one strong counterpick (typically Dreamland). There's just no reason to have such an imbalanced stage set, particularly considering it benefits the characters that are widely considered to be the two best. It's also obviously a glitchy pile of **** and basically all of the transformations are essentially unplayable in terms of competitive play. The only reason this stage hasn't been banned is because there's no real Melee Backroom deciding rulesets anymore. It's just up to TOs, and as long as the community is relatively split on an issue, it can be difficult to change because the TOs will face pressure from those resisting the change. Mew2king is extremely guilty of exacerbating this issue. He's personally stated before that he will never attend a tournament where Pokemon Stadium is banned. It's clear that he realizes that Pokemon should be banned, but because it does not benefit him to ban, he will staunchly oppose the banning.

tl;dr melee players are children please ban this awful stage

 

[-Spark-]

Reasons to ban:
- Benefits Fox more than any other character (low ceiling, infinites)
- You can't see on the edges
- You can be clipped through the stage
- The inner part of the right edge is technically a grabbable edge, so you can wall tech/wall tech jump on it, which is gross and doesn't make sense
- Transformations are gross because there are different slopes and walls, ground friction difference can make "true" combos unreliable, and transformation RNG often decides games
-Getting caught on the inner part of the white things on the edges is really gross

Reasons not to ban:
- Windmill combos can be cool I guess
- Don't want to have too few stages

 

[iAmMatt]

If we got rid of pokemon stadium, I think we would see a real change in tournament results. Fox wins most of the time on PS, with the exception of maybe marth. Perhaps we would even see some of the demigods coming up and taking majors off of the gods.

 

[20XXwingleborgXxx]

I like the Jank! But people are ******* and wont appraoch during transformations. (plz dont ban the stage )

 

[SuperShus]

imo, get rid of PS, then make the stage game 1 is played on invulnerable to DSR

 

[frankxthexbunny]

imo, get rid of PS, then make the stage game 1 is played on invulnerable to DSR

this

pokemon stadium ruins the pace of a match at least twice a match. it has terrible ledge mechanics. it favors spacies to a ridiculous degree. Top players consistently complain about it. It adds way too much variance to be considered fair do to its random nature.

people saying "i like the jank" are probably low level or spacies, probably both, because no one likes to be ahead super hard in the first 40 seconds of a match and then lose the lead to a stage transition.

 

[-ACE-]

PS only favors fox heavily. It favors falco lightly/moderately.

Infinites, death glitches, no visibility at ledge, wack transformations that both kill the pace of the match and favor fox even more, and especially, not a good stage for Ganon. Sounds like a good candidate for a full blown BAN.

25% Kidding.

 

[Loup]

Ban stadium, its only been kept around this long because it's a pro fox stage and all the top level players play fox. Why the hell does melee have a counter pick stage at all? It's like saying, we know this stage is broken due to the transformations, but man, I still need my fox counter pick. Literally the only other character other than fox that enjoys this stage is falcon and marth, and both get screwed over by the transformations.

 

[Matt Little]

How about instead of banning it, we use frozen pokemon stadium?

 

[Anuran]

I agree with making 20xx standard with frozen stadium

 

[Farkus]

The problem with removing stadium is that now there are only 5 legal stages meaning in a Bo5 you are either forced to play all of the stages, removing any sense of stage counter picking or you have to go back to a stage you have already lost on. We could add another stage on to the rotation instead, but the next best option after stadium is DK64. If you thought stadium was bad against Fox, DK64 is much worse since he can circle camp most of the cast, and no one wants to watch that. And any other potential pick is just as bad, every other stage either has hazards, permanent walls, walk offs, is a moving stage, or is big enough that circle camping is viable.

And we can't make frozen stadium a standard pick because at that point we are no longer playing melee, we are playing a mod. And while there is nothing wrong with playing a mod, they are still different games. Yes, 20XX is used at tournaments but the only changes that are allowed to be used are at most aesthetic and not gameplay changing.

 

[Miko]

This question is framed awfully for a number of reasons:

1) You're including in the premise that an alteration to the legality of Stadium should be made before any other stage
2) You're including in the premise that banning is the only option presently available to us
3) You're not actually asking the core question you're trying to ask, which I can only assume is because you have an agenda (banning Stadium)

Personally, I don't think Stadium is presently the most problematic stage of those presently legal, but I'm not going to get into that (and the stage I have a problem with is a stage other than Stadium and FD); you shouldn't be dictating the frame of discussion in this way as if it's the only option, you should be asking "What, if any, changes should be made to the current stage list?".

Similarly, banning isn't our only option - simple mods have become vastly more accessible to the average player now than they were 16 years ago, and it's worth asking if we should consider making slight modifications to the stages - or rather, if we should be using these versions of the stages in tournament (e.g. Frozen versions of Stadium, Yoshi's Story, and Dreamland).

In my mind, transformations / shy guys / wispy all detract from the stages they are present on, and our next step forward with regards to stages should be to make the current and, for all intents and purposes, sufficient stages that we presently play on more geared towards being fair, before we think about adding or removing more stages (if we, as a community, decide this type of modding is the way forward).

If we don't go down the modding route, then I firmly believe we should keep Stadium. I don't believe there is sufficient reason to change its legality, however there is more than sufficient reason for keeping it, primarily that it is the only stage with platforms that does not have a very high or "top" platform, which makes an incredibly important difference when compared to FD and the other stages in some matchups.

 

[-ACE-]

Miko, stadium is definitely the worst legal stage. And I don't see how he said banning is the only option. It really just looks like he wanted opinions.

 

[Farkus]

Miko, stadium is definitely the worst legal stage. And I don't see how he said banning is the only option. It really just looks like he wanted opinions.

It isn't so clear cut, lots of people would argue that FD is worse.

 

[Kaoak]

To be completely honest I feel like the stage will remain legal until a top level match ends by somebody falling through the stage and then the discussion will be had.

 

[Fishaman P]

Are there any merits to unfrozen Stadium being a GOOD stage?
In a vacuum, not worrying about the other legal stages, counterpicking, etc.

 

[Farkus]

Are there any merits to unfrozen Stadium being a GOOD stage?
In a vacuum, not worrying about the other legal stages, counterpicking, etc.

Unfrozen on its own, or compared to frozen? The merits of unfrozen on its own is the far side platforms and lack of a top platform. Additionally, PS has much smaller platforms than other stages allowing them to be covered easier if someone misses a tech on them. PS is also the longest stage in the game by a decent amount allowing long combos.

Compared to frozen, frozen is just better. However frozen is not an option in vanilla Melee, and I do not see any future in which modded melee will be standardized in tournament play.

 

[Jesus!]

>unplayable/janky transformations
>random lips in stage
> low platforms/ceiling benefit provide an amazing counterpick for the best character
>annoying ass vibrating/dust when transforming
>major random elements(worse than wispy/shyguys)

shouldve been banned with kongo

 

[Ezekiel Hamilton]

don't ban this stage the neutral is way too damn good

 

[-ACE-]

It isn't so clear cut, lots of people would argue that FD is worse.

Lots of people are also on reddit too, but....

 

[Farkus]

Lots of people are also on reddit too, but....

Sure, but the people on reddit aren't top level players voicing their opinions on the current stage list.

 

[Divinokage]

Sure, but the people on reddit aren't top level players voicing their opinions on the current stage list.

Will they ever at this point? We don't really have a backroom anymore and the notable TOs and top players do their own thing most of the time. We don't have a section where we can talk privately. These days if 2 top players argue on twitter let's say it becomes a cluster**** of who can get the most likes.

 

[zerks]

A big ding against Stadium is how Pikachu can infinitely jab in the rock pit.

only on the platforms. honestly its not even a good stage for pikachu in most matchups

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Okay, could any of y'all sugar pies fill me in on something here? Y'all say Stadium has a glitch or two but I have never fallen victim to it/them the hundreds of times I played on here.

 

[Captain Phobos]

Okay, could any of y'all sugar pies fill me in on something here? Y'all say Stadium has a glitch or two but I have never fallen victim to it/them the hundreds of times I played on here.

It's not just the glitches. The random transformations can lead to players being trapped in infinite damage spots, and there are too many places to camp.

 

[Farkus]

https://youtu.be/7UtmFlNwi34

It is most common on the fire transformation and happens on both sides of the tree.

 

[SSG SAX GAMER]

I think we should ban pokemon stadium. I think it's a problem that the transformations are determined by an rng since it can literally determine who wins the game. Game 5 of chudat vs hungrybox at dreamhack austin shows this as chudat got really bad transformation rng's which make it so easy for hbox to camp it out. I think that combined with how easy it is to camp makes for bad scenarios where one player can win without actually outplaying their opponent.

I don't think you can even blame the players for the camping and waiting out the transformation. fox stays in the place where he can infinite since he is safe there and gets a free stock if the opponent goes in. The opponent doesn't go in because if he goes in, he will get hit by an infinite. This means it's the stage's fault for creating situations these situations.

Speaking of it benefiting fox, I don't think the issue is a stage benefiting a certain characters since all characters have a best stage. I think it is the extent to which it favors fox. The infinites and transformations give fox a huge advantage that many would say is "too big". I believe this is the reason why corneria was also banned.

The waiting can really kill the hype and intensity of a match. Invisibility at the ledge is sort of an issue, but i wouldn't say it's as bad as the other since other stages like battlefield and fd have pretty jank ledges.

I think the glitch where you can fall through the stage is pretty note worthy although rare since it does happen on occasion. I think it happened recently on Armada's stream and it would be an issue if it were to happen in a big top 8 scenario. Imagine if someone like mang0 or armada lost in grandfinals because they fell through the floor. This creates ruling issues about whether it should be a redo or not and makes things really messy since even if it were to be redone, it would kill any momentum that someone brought with them into the game.

In my opinion, freeze mode on tournament edition is the best way to go since it keeps the counterpicking value of it (still benefits spacies cuz low ceiling and lots of room to run around with lasers), but removes all the "unfair advantages" like winning because you got a lucky transformation, or your opponent happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time while the transformation was happening and you get infinite drill shine and die, or falling through the stage.

Someone earlier brought up about how banning it creates an issue of too few stages where eventually you'll have to play on every stage in a bo5 (assuming we straight up ban it without using TE). I think because of this we should try to find a replacement stage cuz it will probably be less bad than pokemon stadium

PewPewU is against using TE frozen mode and he said that the reason was because things like shy guys and wind on dreamland are elements of the game and you can't just remove it and that players have won because things like shy guys and such.

I'd have to disagree with this because you could say that same thing about items and stages that are banned. The game wasn't made to be competitive so it has elements that are random and don't reward skill so it makes sense to remove these random elements even if they are part of the game because they are a part of the game that goes against the idea that the better player wins. Even if players won because these hazards it wasn't because of skill. If a peach hides behind shy guys to protect herself from falco lasers or sheiks needles then that player got lucky. They got lucky because the RNG gave them something that helps protect them from the other players skill

 

[turdnugget]

Look the reason venom and Yoshi's island are not it's bc venom has unfair stage hazards and Yoshi's island walls are wayyyyyyy to big and the clouds don't help. In my opinion Pokémon stadium is fine and landing an infinite. Combo is hard so if you get it you deserve it. And also if there is 1 stage that should be legal it's Kongo jungle 64.

In certain MUS, this counterpick doesnt just give an advantage, it makes the match for the loser of the stage mu literally unwinnable. (Ganon VS Peach)