Should Melee HD Be A Thing?

[Roukiske]

After reading all the balance changes, not all of them are bad, but people around here say Melee's balance is good (some say PERFECT).

Playing a game that's perfectly balanced would actually make it boring. Think of it this way: Everyone is good. You can play whoever you want because everyone is good. There will be obvious counter-picks (if everyone was good and everyone was evenly matched that sounds even more boring) so now it goes to whoever picks the 2nd character.

Besides what you may believe about the balance of the game, the spacies actually have a pretty unique flaw in that they are fast fallers which to the inexperienced may not sound like a bad thing, but man is that an issue (and Marth is floaty which can also be seen bad/good depending on the matchup). Low tiers have specific combo's against fast fallers that work really well and it sets up some good hype moments. I feel perfect balance removes that magic.

Sure the game's not perfect, but it actually is setup in a good competitive environment given what we have. Ya, it says I main Fox, I main him only because I thought he was the flashiest in 2005. Kinda wanna play Falcon or Luigi now to be honest (Both have tools against fast fallers mind you).

Edit: Also your numbers are incredibly high. As a game designer, you should start with lower numbers and see where it goes and fix accordingly (I assume you have yet to test these numbers).

 

[Team Plasma N]

After reading all the balance changes, not all of them are bad, but people around here say Melee's balance is good (some say PERFECT).

Playing a game that's perfectly balanced would actually make it boring. Think of it this way: Everyone is good. You can play whoever you want because everyone is good.

Wouldn't that be good though? Because now people who actually main characters they like won't be pressured into bandwagoning a top character just to be considered good, and more character diversity will go around. Like, the reason to play Melee is for the fast pace and flashy combo game + mechanics, right? But only a handful of those characters are actually viable for that, or even viable for tournament play. That would be a bit frustrating for someone who mains a "bad" character.

 

[Roukiske]

Wouldn't that be good though? Because now people who actually main characters they like won't be pressured into bandwagoning a top character just to be considered good, and more character diversity will go around. Like, the reason to play Melee is for the fast pace and flashy combo game + mechanics, right? But only a handful of those characters are actually viable for that, or even viable for tournament play. That would be a bit frustrating for someone who mains a "bad" character.

That's true, I wouldn't ask for a complete overhaul of the game and I definitely wouldn't nerf anyone. Instead I would only slightly (and I mean SLIGHTLY) buff certain characters if I HAD to change anything. I love to be flashy too, but every now and then I play Ganon to slow play and punch the crap out of people with fair.

I guess you can say I don't want everyone to be "good", but if they were all viable or at least viable in counter-picks? That sounds good. Someone also pointed out a long time ago that the game is so diverse in options that learning 22 character matchups per character in this kind of game would take an eternity.

 

[Zef]

this is the worst post i've read in a long time

 

[Blarg]

I actually really want Melee HD, but with NO changes whatsoever except graphics and an online mode (that isn't just FD). It'll never happen though, Nintendo wants to push Smash 4 and not encourage Melee.

 

[jonnobigz]

That single DK change completely ruins him. He doesn't need to be stronger. You take away one of his best attacks and want to make it slow? How about you change his Fair? I'm sorry but a lot of the changes outlined here sound very uninformed.

 

[Chinaux]

Something tells me you just took the smash 4 characters and put them in melee. No thanks.

 

[The Slayer]

Why can't it be an update to graphics/sound and call it a day? The only thing I would probably see physically changed is Pichu not damaging himself with every electric attack. But outside of that, there's nothing good to come out of this.

 

[Ndrew]

Although I'm sure this has been said many times, I think that if we were to get melee HD it would have to be vanilla versions of PAL or NTSC. With the stubborn community we have (I'm part of this group), it would be unlikely that it would be well received if nintendo made balance changes.

 

[m0ll0y]

i think if they made Melee HD they should keep everyone how they are , but they should add stages that would benefit lower tier characters .

 

[Kim Steinbach-Reif]

no thanks, pal is the goat. i aint want no boring and balanced smash that makes everyone viable

 

[C_Mill24]

Melee HD in my opinion is a waste of time and resources as it is mostly catering to a minority in a game series' fanbase. There isn't really a point to it. It's just like most remakes, they usually aren't needed.

 

[Captain Zack]

nintendo would ruin it by patching it.

 

[anikom15]

I bet Nintendo will release Melee on VC, but I wonder if they'd incorporate PAL changes into the NTSC versions like they did with Ocarina of Time.

 

[HolyHam]

Melee HD would be so hype! That's the problem as well, it wouldn't live up to expectations, and Sakurai would probably ruin it by nerfing everyone.

 

[Kude]

Just to be clear; You expect us to agree with completely arbitrary and random nerfs/buffs for melee HD? No thanks. Melee HD should be EXACTLY like Melee (though I find that unlikely), especially since Melee HD would be based on PAL, not NTSB) but just... prettier.

 

[zack0463]

looking good

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Melee HD should literally be Melee, in high-def, MAYBE with a few minor changes to low and mid tiers. Things like adjusting pika's fall speed to lighten the effects of sheik's dthrow chaingrab. This would allow Sheik to keep her chaingrabs on other characters, but let pika escape it much earlier. Just minor things like that.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

Hoestly, that was the worst list of changes I have ever seen in well... ever. I don't think you know what will balance the game. It's sad to see you admit you barely put effort to your list too. You have to put effort if you are really going to convince us and yet like I said, barely any effort to it. It doesn't help that you bash on people who disagree with it even though they are right. I have no respect for you man.

But an HD melee would be interesting. I would also like a 64 3D remake as well for 3ds. Knowing Sakurai though will do a lot of changes which is why I prefer if we only get a virtual console release.

 

[Deleted member]

After reading all the balance changes, not all of them are bad, but people around here say Melee's balance is good (some say PERFECT).

Playing a game that's perfectly balanced would actually make it boring. Think of it this way: Everyone is good. You can play whoever you want because everyone is good. There will be obvious counter-picks (if everyone was good and everyone was evenly matched that sounds even more boring) so now it goes to whoever picks the 2nd character.

Besides what you may believe about the balance of the game, the spacies actually have a pretty unique flaw in that they are fast fallers which to the inexperienced may not sound like a bad thing, but man is that an issue (and Marth is floaty which can also be seen bad/good depending on the matchup). Low tiers have specific combo's against fast fallers that work really well and it sets up some good hype moments. I feel perfect balance removes that magic.

Sure the game's not perfect, but it actually is setup in a good competitive environment given what we have. Ya, it says I main Fox, I main him only because I thought he was the flashiest in 2005. Kinda wanna play Falcon or Luigi now to be honest (Both have tools against fast fallers mind you).

Edit: Also your numbers are incredibly high. As a game designer, you should start with lower numbers and see where it goes and fix accordingly (I assume you have yet to test these numbers).

This post in particular caught my attention. Contrary to belief, i am a game designer/programmer too, i know that this might not be perfectly balanced, however, it was quick, costless, and somewhat conceivable as a "what if" changelog, so i began to work on it.

I'll put more time into an appropriate changelog when i get the power to do so (via hacking).

 

[JustYuck]

Melee HD should be Melee with updated character models/textures that support 1080p HD. Thats all. No changes should be made to character balance it is perfect the way it is. However I would like to see the ability to save rules sets and omega forms of maps like in sm4sh, just so we don't get sick of looking at FD all of the time.

EDIT: Also online play, that would be important to get more people into the whole competitive scene. I know lag would be a problem but it would be good enough for most.

 

[stancosmos]

I'd like it under these conditions:

1. All of Fox's moves become slower and weaker by at least 30%
2. All of Sheik's moves become weaker by 50%, but Sheik gets a 20% speed boost in Smash attacks (excluding down-smash).
3. All of Falco's moves beomce slower (by 45%), but stronger (by 20%)
4. Captain Falcon's Knee Smash now kills at 120%, and his non-sweetspotted Knee Smash kills at 170%, All of Falcon's other moves get slight KB Growth nerfs (by about 30%).

5. All of Marth's sweetspotted moves do 2% less damage and the rest of his moves (aerials etc) do 10% (math percentages, not Smash percent) less damage and knockback, but Marth gets an 8% speed buff.
6. Jigglypuff's ground speed get reduced by 45%, and it's ground attacks get weakened by 50%, in addition, Jigglypuff's fair become 12% slower, and it's bair become 7% weaker. It's weight value also goes down by 20pts.

7. Peach can no longer pull stitch turnips, bombs, or beam swords. In addition, Peach's down smash get reduced to 4 hits that properly connect and do 3% each uncharged. The move also has 20% less knockback growth to balance it out.
Peach's fair also gets weakened
Peach's uair now hits two times, each hit doing 4%, and it can combo now
Peach's nair gets a 48.98% base knockback nerf
Peach's side-b gets sped up to around Smash 4 speed.
The Toad from Peach's n-b now does 4% damage and can kill at about 200%. If anyone gets hit by Toad's hitboxes, then the fungus counter will automatically initiate, but it will be 70% weaker than usual and have very low knockback growth.

8. During a grab, the Ice Climber's jab attack gets slowed and weakened by at least 58%, and Nana can only use an attack after Popo's grab attack animation ends. This is obviously, to get rid of wobbling.
In addition:
Nana now does 50% less damage than Popo, but Nana is 50% faster to balance it out. This was done so that the Ice Climber's combos wouldn't be so deadly, and so that SoPo could have some viability to him.

All of the Ice Climber's attacks are 30% faster but are 40% weaker than before.
Fair, however, is 20% slower than it was before, yet it is also 40% stronger than before.
In addition, the Ice Climber's chain grabs are gone, and replaced with throws that can always combo into any aerial that isn't fair.

9. Doctor Mario is actually slower than Mario for a change. He is slower than Mario by 50%, and is now 40% stronger and can kill 50% faster than Mario, regardless of what the ratio was before.

10. Pikachu's attacks are now 45% faster, yet now they are 10% weaker. The moves also have better trajectories, enforcing more offensive play.

In addition, Skull Bash has been slightly sped up (25%), but is now slightly weaker (35%)

11. Samus' extended grapple is gone, however, now Samus' normal grapple beam is 75% longer and by using the input that previously allowed for the extended grapple beam, Samus can now use a damaging, electrocuting grapple beam that is a multi-hit move and deals a total of 8% if all of the multi hits connect, it then ends in Samus jerking the grapple beam back and the enemy gets hit by a poweful electric strike that does 4% damage and sends the foe towards Samus, and with proper timing, Samus can follow up with some fancy attacks.

Samus' Power Missile now takes on it's Smash 4 appearance. But that's only an aesthetic change.

Samus' attacks now do 30% more damage/knockback, but are 20% slower.
Samus' weight is also 20% lower.

12. All of Ganon's moves get slight KB growth nefs (by about 30). This was done to match his nerfs to that of Falcon's, so he could stay true to his clone name.

Though Ganon's side-smash gets replaced by a sword slash that does 14% uncharged, and has good Base KB and KB Growth, being able to kill at about 110%.

Also, Skull Breaker has been nerfed up a bit to accommodate for the Knee Smash nerf.

13. Luigi is now 40% slower, and his wavedash now traverses 40% less distance than before. These things were done to make him worst than Mario.

14. The Knockback Growth on all of Mario's moves has been improved by 48%, yet his speed stats have been buffed so that he can still combo.

15. Young Link is now 30% faster.
In addition, Young Link's aerials have 32.45% less landing lag on them.
Young Link's wavedash now takes him 20% further than before.
Young Link's Arrows now do 2% flame damage (with no knockback growth) if they land on the ground and somebody touches them.
Young Link's Boomerang is now 40% more stiff, which means that you can no longer angle it as well.

16. Link's attacks are now all slightly stronger (by about 10%)
In addition, Link's dair now can spike.
Also, Link's bombs can now kill at 130%
And his Boomerang can kill at 180%, but it can still combo
Link's fully charged arrow can kill at 110%
Link's up-throw can now kill at about 140%.

17. Donkey Kong is now 30% stronger.
And Donkey Kong's bair gets replaced with a much slower, more powerful backwards punch that deals 14% damage and can kill at about 100%.

18. Yoshi's Double Jump no longer has super armor on it
However, Yoshi's up-b now takes him 40% further than before and can be used up to three times before you stop getting vertical momentum from the move.

19. Zelda's weight gets increased by 40%.
Also, The sweetspot on Zelda's moves have a 50% larger hitbox.
In addition, all of Zelda's moves received a 30% speed buff.

20. Roy's sweetspotted moves received a 25% Knockback buff, whereas his sourspotted moves received a 25% Damage buff.
All of Roy's moves are slightly faster (by 23.25%)
But Roy's weight is now 40% lower than before.

21. Mewtwo's Shadow Ball now travels 10% faster and is 10% smaller, it's pattern is also 10% less jagged.
Mewtwo's fair now has 35% more range
Mewtwo's dair now has only half of the starting lag, yet 20% more ending lag
Mewtwo's tilts now do 5% more damage and have 10% more knockback
Mewtwo can now act out of teleport with anything but another teleport (even an airdodge).
Mewtwo's Disable can now hit foes facing away from him
Mewtwo's Disable in the air now always has knockback/hitstun, and it launches opponents horizontally. It can kill at about 125%.
Mewtwo's Confusion is now much different: Mewtwo will still do the usual nigh-ee! move, but once Mewtwo grabs an opponent, he throws them forward like he would a Beam Sword or Crate (with an identical, if not the same, animation). The move does 12% damage, launches you in a horizontal direction, and can kill at 120%. One thing to note though, is if you hold up, down, or backwards before Mewtwo starts to throw the opponent, he will instead launch them upwards, downwards, or backwards, with the upwards, downwards, or backwards throwing animation respectively.
And to top it all off, all of Mewtwo's moves get a 15.00% (get it?) speed boost.

22. Mr.Game&Watch can now L-Cancel all of his aerials.
GameWatch's moves are now all 20% faster and 34% stronger.
GameWatch's uair now has a windbox (i'll get to that later).
GameWatch can now absorb his own patties for a quick bucket, yet the patties don't hurt him, the downside is that a patty-filled Oil Panic only deals minimal damage, and it has poor knockback stats.
GameWatch's dair can now spike easier and it is 40% stronger (compared to vanilla GameWatch) all around.
GameWatch's throws can actually kill now. They kill at about 150%.
GameWatch's vertical momentum no longer gets cancelled when using his n-b.
GameWatch's air speed is 12% faster.
Game&Watch's weight can been lowered by 40%.

23. All of Ness' attacks deal 30% more damage
Ness' weight has been increased by 25%.

24. Bowser is 30% larger.
Bowser is also 50% stronger all around.

25. Pichu is 10% faster.

26. Kirby's throws can no longer be escaped anymore, and they can combo.
Kirby's up-throw can kill at 120% now.
Kirby's inhale has now been changed up: When Kirby inhales a foe, if he presses A, they will get released as normal, only the move can actually combo now. If Kirby presses B, he'll copy both the opponent's Neutral Special and their Side Special. And if Kirby presses Down on the analog stick, he'll copy both the opponent's Up Special and their Down Special.

Kirby's attacks are now 40% stronger and 30% faster. In addition, Kirby's air speed is now 12% faster, allowing him to keep up with his targets for combos.

Also some of the following return from Smash Wii U:

Autolink angle
Windboxes
Red Lightning when you are about to die
That bouncing effect that occurs when you are spiked or meteored and land on the ground
The removal of Meteor/Spike cancelling
All of the Pivot Techniques (although they're easier to use)
All of the extra Smash 4 characters, only Melee-ized
The Custom Stage feature, which will be a combination of Brawl's and Smash 4's, with a few unique thing in the mix
Online Mode
For Fun
For Glory (only most-all of the omega stages will have platforms and different layouts, in addition, with some stages, the platforms will actually move around, identically to that of Smashville's and other stages with balanced moving platforms)
The ability to vote on stages to fight on in wifi battles (like in Brawl)
The ability to play custom stages against your friends
All of the extra Smash 4 stages only balanced.
-----
Also, Melee's stages will be balanced but fun too. And don't worry, the speed/depth/wavedashing/l-cancelling/dashdancing will still be in the game.

This is some terrible balance patching. Nintendo gets a lot of flack for it's smash 4 patches, but we should be thankful that at least it's not this guy doing it.

 

[Pippu]

Some of these buffs and nerfs are super ridiculous and I feel such a biased with some characters. Heavily nerfing one top tier and then buffing another is dumb.
I know this is a what if scenario but I feel a biased with characters and wants. Melee isn't your game. I highly doubt it'll ever get a HD rerelease anyway
The competitive smash scene isn't what Nintendo is going to cater to. Nintendo is a business, it takes money and resources to make games and the melee fandom isn't that big enough to support the time and effort of updating a 13 year old game.

 

[BBOY15]

I think if Melee was like this list when it came out, then it wouldn't be such a bad thing. But the meta has been developed so much around the game being exactly like it is that we shouldn't mess with any of the top tier characters. If we wanted to balance the game though, we should buff low tiers a lot, make minor buffs to A tiers, and keep S tiers exactly the same. Then it wouldn't rip a hole through the established meta, and only force people to re-learn some non-S tier matchups.

 

[anikom15]

I like Link. He needs the buffstick.

 

[gmBottles]

I like Link. He needs the buffstick.

If they made Melee HD, I would hope that no changes are made outside of the obvious graphic changes. That's why it'll probably never happen, too many changes would likely be made.

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Contrary to belief, i am a game designer/programmer too...

I'm the head artist of a game design club at my college, and recently, we had a "game designer" that pitched us the idea "Let's make Ice Climbers, but put it in space, and make it harder." The title "game designer" doesn't mean jack **** unless you have polished, professional-level products to support it, so don't just go throwing that around thinking it will give all of us no choice but to respect your opinion.

Your changes are unbalanced and biased. Your responses to criticism contain more baseless backlash than the average Fanfiction.net author's note. You obviously don't care about this game. Why does this post even exist?

 

[peachbomr]

Definitely think there shouldn't be any character mechanic changes except maybe to separate Sheik/Zelda as two different characters. Updated graphics/music and maybe a bigger stage list for both competitive and casual so everyone can be happy.

 

[Spak]

Definitely think there shouldn't be any character mechanic changes except maybe to separate Sheik/Zelda as two different characters. Updated graphics/music and maybe a bigger stage list for both competitive and casual so everyone can be happy.

If they split Shiek and Zelda up, what would their Down-Bs be?

 

[peachbomr]

If they split Shiek and Zelda up, what would their Down-Bs be?

You know what, I didn't think about that. I don't suppose someone could create moves?

 

[Spak]

You know what, I didn't think about that. I don't suppose someone could create moves?

Maybe. I would say Nintendo could just use their Sm4sh Down-Bs, but that would make Shiek more godly in Melee.

 

[TimeSmash]

Keep the Zelda buffs, lose everything else.

Zelda is now high tier

 

[GameRat]

You shouldn't change character's stats.
Melee's characters are fine the way they are.

If anything, you should probably make it easier to wavedash and do shorthops.

 

[TimeSmash]

Melee's characters are fine the way they are.

Are they though?

 

[Deleted member]

Eh, I think it's fine as it is, but upgrading the graphics a little bit should be fine.

 

[Spak]

Are they though?

Half of them are, but I wouldn't change characters people have been trying to play for 14 years, no matter how bad they are. SDR is trying that and hasn't met much community success thus far.

 

[TimeSmash]

Half of them are, but I wouldn't change characters people have been trying to play for 14 years, no matter how bad they are. SDR is trying that and hasn't met much community success thus far.

As far as a remake goes, I totally understand having carbon copies of characters and their movesets from a traditional and nostalgic aspect. But at the same time, you have characters like Zelda who has only a handful of moves to use. I'm not saying there should be huge radical changes, but at the same time an increase in viability for some characters would be nice. Though, as brought up by your SDR point (which I'm not familiar with, but will be an interesting read!), it's not the easiest or most accepted thing to do. I would propose that players who enjoy traditional Melee to stick with that, while others can move on to this hypothetical remake, but that of course brings the issue that A. the community would be playing two different versions of Melee, B. we'd definitely see some sort of Brawl/Smash4 vs. Melee-esque type of forum flooding and C. some other forms of minutia that would collectively add up to other issues.

In the face of those facts though, I think it's ambitious to at least try. With the same dedication and intricacy we've seen in the original Melee, obviously.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Mewtwo is the only reason that Smash still operates.

lol wat.

 

[Roukiske]

I said this already in another Melee remake thread:

Either:

• Do not change anything, but have a graphical update
• Attempt to balance the game, BUT let there be an option to play the an untouched version with a graphical update.

Puzzle Fighter HD Remix did this. Normal mode (untouched arcade edition) and Remix mode (attempt to balance the counter gems on problem characters)

Yes, the community could potentially split, but seriously there's no pleasing everyone without a possible chance of a split regardless. Even making a sequel to a game gives the chance for a split, unless you do it right.

 

[SadFlyersFan]

"Lets make fox ****ty and mewtwo overpowered bc i like mewtwo and hate fox."

Somebody seems salty their main isn't viable. Also, changing falcon's knee is legitimately the worst idea you have. It's like you actually hate fun.