Should it be legal to look at your opponent's controller to see their DI?

[the muted smasher]

The mix ups on puffs D throw either make You jump forward or in place and float, no di will change that unless it'd let You escape anyhow.

I said 1/3 in event of it being usable vs tech chasing, but falcon players have gotten so good at it, it might worsen their tech chases at this point.

Maybe You could say out well fox could D throw tech chase now, but the di+tech mix ups alone make reading their stick fool hardly.

This ban can't change any "unhealthy" melee.

Drug use/person to person/crowd reactions are far more notable.

I really dislike this game being lawyered

 

[-ACE-]

The mix ups on puffs D throw either make You jump forward or in place and float, no di will change that unless it'd let You escape anyhow.

Reacting to essentially those 2 directions is melee. Knowing what direction is coming beforehand is not melee.

What if reads and fast reactions were no longer necessary? Would this game be anywhere near the same?

I said 1/3 in event of it being usable vs tech chasing, but falcon players have gotten so good at it, it might worsen their tech chases at this point.

Pointing out specific situations where this "technique" isn't viable doesn't prove anything.

This ban can't change any "unhealthy" melee.

Drug use/person to person/crowd reactions are far more notable.

I really dislike this game being lawyere

I honestly just can't imagine someone not seeing the obvious grime in looking to see someone's DI. I have a feeling you don't understand how important it is, and how easy it is to use in some situations.

No single rule serves as an attempt at nullifying every questionable practice of human behavior in a gaming community. When wobbling was banned, did a single person think the decision would force people to behave professionally in every way? This thought is ridiculous.

"Lawyered?!?!?" Asking someone not to cheat is "lawyering" the game? Defending someone's right to cheat is beyond me.

I mean, can you BELIEVE those Deutsche bagels that banned that pichu hacker guy?!?!? What a bunch of overzealous wannabe lawyers!

 

[the muted smasher]

I've timed out a kirby in a mm before, I literally don't care about grime. There are many people I can't stomach to watch or play against, but I deal with it.

What does looking at their controller allow You to do that You can't otherwise do in game? Thanks for agreeing with my what if someone mastered it as fox D throw idea.

It's not even completely impossible to react to the D throw as puff, just makes it easier.

You can't ban something because it makes something easier and You think it's grimy. Nor does this affect game play enough to prevent the same inputs from both players still happening.

Tell me how many sets You've personal won/lost because of this?

Honestly I enjoy time outs so till You bring up some applications why how this can break melee I'll out patince You I'm sorry.

 

[-ACE-]

I've timed out a kirby in a mm before, I literally don't care about grime. There are many people I can't stomach to watch or play against, but I deal with it.

That is not grime. It's part of the game.

What does looking at their controller allow You to do that You can't otherwise do in game? Thanks for agreeing with my what if someone mastered it as fox D throw idea.

This is not a valid argument against banning something. It's like knowing a chess move before it happens. You didn't know what he was going to do. You COULD have made the right move, which was possible whether you knew the future or not, but you didn't. Not knowing your opponent's next move makes chess a lot different, doesn't it?

I'd like to see you cheat to get winning lottery numbers, and argue that you "didn't do anything that couldn't be done without knowing the winning numbers in advance" just because something is possible means nothing.

It's not even completely impossible to react to the D throw as puff, just makes it easier.

It's also possible to grab Falco at 12% and kill him with Ganondorf. It's guaranteed. But no one on Earth can do it consistently. If they knew his DI in advance, there would be tons of people doing it. Knowing the future is an unfair advantage.

You can't ban something because it makes something easier and You think it's grimy. Nor does this affect game play enough to prevent the same inputs from both players still happening.

Uhhh, yes you can. Things are banned for those reasons all the time LOL.

Steroids makes hitting a homerun easier, it's grimey, and guess what? Banned. There are many examples, but that's besides the point.

Again, imagine playing chess against someone who literally knew the future. Should he be allowed in a normal human tournament, a competition for money? Would it be fair?

Knowing your opponent's move ahead of time doesn't just make something easier. It's an extremely unique and unfair advantage.

Honestly I enjoy time outs so till You bring up some applications why how this can break melee I'll out patince You I'm sorry.

.......ooook

 

[the muted smasher]

I literally can't imagine a smaller advantage to ban that could cost aa player everything.

That can be dealt with by gentleman rules like chain throwing in dittos.

Port wars matter more

 

[the muted smasher]

Worst part of this is the application of this is aimed at helping box D throw.

So either h box learns to react and this changes no results or we punish a top player for a niche case option.

You would fail to chain throw a Falco as gannon even looking at a stick because they should be mashing anyhow till 40% and random di is honestly good vs that throw in general

 

[-ACE-]

I literally can't imagine a smaller advantage to ban that could cost aa player everything.

That can be dealt with by gentleman rules like chain throwing in dittos.

Port wars matter more

Worstpart of this is the application of this is aimed at helping box D throw.

So either h box learns to react and this changes no results or we punish a top player for a niche case option

Do you understand the importance of legality? This has only recently become an issue. The key is stopping it before it gets worse, or before it becomes the norm. This is why I asked in the OP if this was the direction we wanted to head in as a community. When someone starts doing something that's clearly cheating, if something isn't done, eventually everyone will do it. This is known as a "slippery slope". Do you want people constantly looking at each other's controllers to see their DI? Should we tell them which way we're going to DI instead?

I don't think you understand what kind of advantage is achieved in knowing DI in advance. Especially if you think this only applies to jiggs dthrow, and your suggestion that port wars matter more. In some matchups, yes port wars matter more, but ports matter more for chaingrabbing and grab punishes more than anything else, and knowing someone's DI in advance undoubtedly means more than getting 1 extra frame of throw lag.

I don't expect many people to be familiar with this, but I'm one of the best in the world at chaingrabbing spacies with Ganon. And let me just tell you, knowing their DI in advance is BROKEN. Ask TM or Magus420, I'm sure they'll agree. It can work with other chaingrabs too. This is 100% cheating and broken. Not only that, but it's pathetic. Hbox knows it too, he's trying to be sneaky af when he does it. If he thought it was legit he'd be much more obvious about it.

 

[the muted smasher]

Honestly as silly as it seems, this mightve better been put in the puff boards to look for a middle ground

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly as silly as it seems, this mightve better been put in the puff boards to look for a middle ground

Are you trolling? I just explained that this was broken for my own character. I'm obviously not just anti-puff, nor am I naive enough to think this only works for puff. Any time you can pummel you have enough time to check their stick for DI. Grime.com

 

[the muted smasher]

I'm probably trolling but You have been to guy xD

But really if You wanna really talk about this being broken go into teams in the event of a 1 vs 1 in say falco vs a tech chaser and the partner watches the controller of the Falco and just calls techs making it super free.

But I'm still completely against this being banned because this should be a T.O. call case by case like if there's a power outage and the match was about to be a 4 stock, would You make them play from start or try to more or less reset the near edge victory the one player earned?

If I T.O. ed and a team did that crap they'd be down a game and be given a warning and watched. I'm sure we could list many grimy out of game things, but that literally doesn't need to be a thick booklet for us to read and say oh boy this tournament I can watch hands.

In the puff case unless they are tearing through a tournament with throw rest hand watching that might be an issue. But once every other set I can't see merit in throwing matches or anything insane.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm probably trolling but You have been to guy xD

The only troll post I made had nothing to do with the issue. If you're going to troll, go to the social thread.

But really if You wanna really talk about this being broken go into teams in the event of a 1 vs 1 in say falco vs a tech chaser and the partner watches the controller of the Falco and just calls techs making it super free.

And you really think this should be legal?

No top players do this to my knowledge. Are they just dumb? Or do they, deep down, feel it is unethical?

But I'm still completely against this being banned because this should be a T.O. call case by case like if there's a power outage and the match was about to be a 4 stock, would You make them play from start or try to more or less reset the near edge victory the one player earned?

I essentially already proposed that this should be case by case when I stated that intent matters. Looking at someone's fingers as they multishine obviously shouldn't warrant a DQ.

I'm sure we could list many grimy out of game things, but that literally doesn't need to be a thick booklet for us to read and say oh boy this tournament I can watch hands.

No one is proposing a thick booklet of rules. I am proposing the notion of incorporating a common sense rule for the sake of the integrity of the community and to help preserve fairness in competition. This is ridiculous.

In the puff case unless they are tearing through a tournament with throw rest hand watching that might be an issue. But once every other set I can't see merit in throwing matches or anything insane.

NO. Either something is legal or it's not. It seems that you don't understand the importance of decisions regarding legality. You can't make a rule on the fly. If you admit there could be an issue, A RULE NEEDS TO BE IN PLACE! Simple!

 

[the muted smasher]

Wait now I'm confused You have conflicting points.

You make a case by case note

Not wanting there to be a detailed listing

And something should be set in stone legal or not.

I think there are to many possible minor cases of grime to be needed for it to be typed out and between public shaming and a good T.O. call on any complaints all issues should be handled as has. Now did anyone complain to the T.O. s at said events and if they wouldn't listen when it changed the out come then why would it now?

Also listening could be thrown in like when You listen for a mash and quick throw like peach f throwing to kill or marth f throw f smash on bad di or ics random d smash for early wobble kills that mightve failed otherwise.

Both listening/looking reach the same goals of making the correct di impossible

 

[-ACE-]

Also listening could be thrown in like when You listen for a mash and quick throw like peach f throwing to kill or marth f throw f smash on bad di or ics random d smash for early wobble kills that mightve failed otherwise.

Both listening/looking reach the same goals of making the correct di impossible

NO dude, come on. If you HEAR someone press a button or slam a stick, it's much different than looking to see exactly what direction they've inputted. You're not purposely trying to cheat. That's like someone yelling during a test "THE ANSWER TO #13 IS B!!" You didn't TRY to cheat.

Intent matters. This is why I didn't contradict myself. The example you stated that might be an issue in your opinion was a jiggs player hardcore controller watching every match and dominating. That is an an example of grime; intending to cheat. Looking at someone's controller while they multishine is NOT grime; not intending to cheat. It's VERY easy to tell the difference, both in theory and IRL.

I literally can't believe I'm having to explain this.

 

[Crooked Crow]

The only feasible way of stopping controller watching is to put some sort of barrier up between the two players, or situate them on opposite sides of the room.

It's definitely grimy and you know it. Not to mention the advantage it'd give someone who's trying to tech-chase; an integral part of Melee.

 

[-ACE-]

There still should be a rule.

As of now, someone can say "are you looking at my controller?? Dude, stop... that's messed up" and Mr Grime can say "there's no rule against it" which is bogus.

If people started talking hateful **** to their opponents during tournament, we'd have to make a rule against that also if it got out of hand. You can't just require headphones, there HAS to be a rule against talking hateful inappropriate ****.

The pros for having a rule for this far outweigh the cons.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I agree there should be a rule.

 

[Kataquax]

no matter if it stays legal or not
i think there should be a rule that it is allowed to put some kind of wall between the players if one of them wants it (and at best the TO provides one)

 

[-ACE-]

no matter if it stays legal or not
i think there should be a rule that it is allowed to put some kind of wall between the players if one of them wants it (and at best the TO provides one)

If the players are on separate chairs, the player can move his chair slightly behind Mr Grime so that no controllers can be seen. Lol, one good reason to have controller with a long cord.

 

[iAmMatt]

What about more setups like what we had at g3? 2 crts, with their backs to each other

 

[-ACE-]

What about more setups like what we had at g3? 2 crts, with their backs to each other

In theory those are great, but the amount of setups will rarely allow for it

 

[Ten of Nine]

I think this thread is a bit ridiculous

Just make Hbox and the other grimers wear blinders that block their side to side view (like they do with horses)

Also I like how so many people on here are always talking about how much they like Hbox all the time and how his sets are so good in top 8 and what not.....and he does this stuff. Dumb.

 

[-ACE-]

I think this thread is a bit ridiculous

Are you capable of elaborating on this?

Why is asking "should there be a rule in place?" a ridiculous request?

So far no one has come up with a great reason not to have a rule, and everyone claiming this seems to have a lot of trouble backing up their own views.

Your suggestion, although an unwarranted obvious troll, is what I would call ridiculous.

 

[Ten of Nine]

ACE cry about it some more, I'm not trolling. Seriously make them wear blinders as punishment. What do you suggest? Eyeball police instead? Do we stop the match and review footage to verify? How do we know they weren't just looking down or blinking?

Your initial post by your own standards is ridiculous and trolling. Set up a scenario where you can flawlessly CG any spacie player on any stage. Let's even have a video camera pointed right at their hands and a monitor just for you right beside the set CRT.

You wouldn't be able to 0 to death a player even with all that extra help. You don't realize why?

Let me explain -

1. The player can just change their DI up until it's active, a player doesn't just have to hold one direction wait for you to look and continue holding. Like Mang0 often does he will just randomly combo DI and toggle directions quickly. I can sit there and just do a dash dance motion with he analog and you'd never be able to CG me on reaction any more than if you weren't looking (and because of the wiggle as a bonus I'd break out if early on if you tried to stall the throw as mix up).
2. You still have to split your concentration, you would mess up even with all this unfair help and them not changing DI.

 

[-ACE-]

ACE cry about it some more, I'm not trolling. Seriously make them wear blinders as punishment. What do you suggest? Eyeball police instead? Do we stop the match and review footage to verify? How do we know they weren't just looking down or blinking?

Your initial post by your own standards is ridiculous and trolling. Set up a scenario where you can flawlessly CG any spacie player on any stage. Let's even have a video camera pointed right at their hands and a monitor just for you right beside the set CRT.

You wouldn't be able to 0 to death a player even with all that extra help. You don't realize why?

Let me explain -

1. The player can just change their DI up until it's active, a player doesn't just have to hold one direction wait for you to look and continue holding. Like Mang0 often does he will just randomly combo DI and toggle directions quickly. I can sit there and just do a dash dance motion with he analog and you'd never be able to CG me on reaction any more than if you weren't looking (and because of the wiggle as a bonus I'd break out if early on if you tried to stall the throw as mix up).
2. You still have to split your concentration, you would mess up even with all this unfair help and them not changing DI.

-Gets asked if he can back up his claim.
-says "cry more". I guess that answers that.

So you're not trolling about the blinders. Lol. That's truly awesome dude.

If we couldn't tell the difference between blinking and looking at the opponent's controller at an ideal opportune moment to gain an advantage, how would anyone have noticed this to begin with? You'd have to be oblivious to how DI works to not see the difference.

I see you're attacking my chaingrab example. Here's the facts. I can already do it starting at 50% with reasonable consistency. Knowing someone's DI makes it absolutely free. Sneaking in 2 free extra regrabs is easy and essentially makes it a 0-death. BTW, are you aware that I never claimed I could do a 0-death? Only low percent. This is very feasible and only seems like a troll to the unfamiliar.

But as for your explanation, someone would have to actually know you're a grimey player and know that you're trying to look. That scenario isn't happening right now. The person is sneakily finding out his opponent's DI without anyone but spectators knowing. This is because no one really did this before, so there is a lack of awareness on this issue. This is one of the things having a rule helps to alleviate. And you are just further displaying how unfamiliar you are with this scenario by claiming the person chaingrabbing would mess up.

 

[Yashoku]

Ugh, now it's not just the heavy crts I have to lug around but walls too?

Feasibility honestly should have no play in whether or not anything should be banned.

Dan Salvato pointed out that it's incredibly unfeasible to stop all melee hackers. Does this mean we should allow hacks? Are we only going to put rules in place only if we can easily enforce them? I believe this thread should be on discussion of whether or not controller peeking SHOULD BE illegal or not, not if it can be enforced.

On that, I do belive it should NOT be illegal for a fairly simple reason: Players should be able to do anything within their abilities that do not hinder other players' abilities or the games functionality itself.
Using that rule is why things like headphones are okay to use or fox's infinites aren't illegal and why wobbling is a gray area (does it defeat game functionality, ie too op or not).
On this, I think that being able to look at someone's controller, interpret it, then change your actions because of controller peeking I would see that as a skill and not cheating. As that still takes talent and training while not being game breaking, therefore shouldn't be illegal.

 

[-ACE-]

On that, I do belive it should NOT be illegal for a fairly simple reason: Players should be able to do anything within their abilities that do not hinder other players' abilities or the games functionality itself.
Using that rule is why things like headphones are okay to use or fox's infinites aren't illegal and why wobbling is a gray area (does it defeat game functionality, ie too op or not).
On this, I think that being able to look at someone's controller, interpret it, then change your actions because of controller peeking I would see that as a skill and not cheating. As that still takes talent and training while not being game breaking, therefore shouldn't be illegal.

I respect your opinion, but I also feel that these same points work for cheating on an exam. You aren't hindering the other students or the functionality of the exam. It takes some talent as some people are better at cheating than others, and it is not game breaking. But it's definitely not allowed.

Plus, aren't you hindering your opponent if you take away his ability to surprise you with his DI?

 

[captainmar]

I'd put this in the same boat as screenpeeking in goldeneye/halo/ect. while everyone should be focused on what they are doing it is impossible to ban it outright. If it is a major deal for someone they would just have to bring a shoebox or something to hide the controller. This is pretty similar to the coaching ban thread a few weeks ago where it is a huge grey area that probably doesn't apply to most people but could be a detriment to the community. I'd say we should just move to the 20XX future and just settle everything with RPS.

 

[-ACE-]

It's certainly not impossible to ban. People will get around it, but people getting around rules isn't a deal breaking issue imo. It's a grimey practice, and having a rule makes a lot less people do it. You should never have to bring a shoebox, a wall, a hand towel, etc just to keep things fair at a tourney.