Should I Fast Fall When Ramen Noodling?

[Jackson]

With sheik, when I wavedash backwards to grab ledge, do I need to learn to fastfall to grab it faster? I can see why it would be good but I feel like when I try to do this I just fast fall through it. Is this important?

 

[Scroll]

yes, FF it

 

[Stride]

You're fastfalling too late, too early, or for too long; those are the only possibilities. You'll get used to it, just mess around with your timings and feel out where you're going wrong.

I can't see any situation where you wouldn't want to fastfall. I suppose it would be useful occasionally to let you mix up your timing, but there are better ways to do that.

 

[Scroll]

I wrote my reply in such a hurry - sorry for that.
You have a window to buffer the fast fall, before you become airborn, which is 3 frames. Remember to tap down quickly.
If you hold down you cannot grab the ledge and you will FF past it.
With that in mind practice some more.
FF is important if you want to optimize your game play and it's not super hard to get consistant with.

 

[Jackson]

I wrote my reply in such a hurry - sorry for that.
You have a window to buffer the fast fall, before you become airborn, which is 3 frames. Remember to tap down quickly.
If you hold down you cannot grab the ledge and you will FF past it.
With that in mind practice some more.
FF is important if you want to optimize your game play and it's not super hard to get consistant with.

Cool, so I basically just want to tap the stick down and let it return to neutral as I wavedash off?

Tapping it makes a lot of sense, i was only thinking of holding.

 

[Stride]

Cool, so I basically just want to tap the stick down and let it return to neutral as I wavedash off?

Tapping it makes a lot of sense, i was only thinking of holding.

You still have to hold it for a little bit after you wavedash off to fastfall for as long as possible (and therefore grab the ledge as quickly as possible). You only want to let go of it when you'd end up grabbing the ledge immediately afterwards.

The sequence of actions would be:
• Wavedash back
• Input fastfall just before falling off or as soon as you're airborne
• Keep holding downwards on the control stick to fastfall
• Release the control stick the frame before you enter ledge grab range (or later so long as you wouldn't fall out of range, but anything after this frame would be slower)
• On the next frame you'll fall into ledge grab range and grab the ledge

Since the timing never varies and you're doing it so often you'll probably end up being very consistently frame-perfect with this. There's a lot of leniency too; there are many frames where you'll still grab the ledge if you release the fastfall late.

 

[Jackson]

You still have to hold it for a little bit after you wavedash off to fastfall for as long as possible (and therefore grab the ledge as quickly as possible). You only want to let go of it when you'd end up grabbing the ledge immediately afterwards.

The sequence of actions would be:
• Wavedash back
• Buffer fastfall just before falling off
• Keep holding down to fastfall
• Release down the frame before you enter ledge grab range
• On the next frame you'll fall into ledge grab range and grab the ledge

Since the timing never varies and you're doing it so often you'll probably end up being very consistently frame-perfect with this. There's a lot of leniency too; there are many frames where you'll still grab the ledge if you release the fastfall late.

Great explanation, thank you. I'll use this as I practice, probably starting at 1/4th speed or so.

 

[Stride]

Great explanation, thank you. I'll use this as I practice, probably starting at 1/4th speed or so.

This may just be personal preference, but I really wouldn't recommend practicing at a slower speed. The problem isn't that you can't do the inputs in the right order (which slow motion would help with by letting you confirm it visually), it's that your timing is wrong. At 0.25x speed (or any alternate speed) you're going to improve your timing very little, if at all, compared to just practicing at the speed you'll actually need to perform at. What you're practicing in slow motion is effectively a different technique with a radically different timing to the one you're trying to learn.

I would recommend that you use normal speed. Start with what you're doing now, which is wavedashing and fastfalling just fine but continuing to fastfall for too long; then reduce the amount of time you fastfall for by a little bit at a time until you end up with a timing where you grab the ledge, then play around with timings around that point until you're grabbing the ledge a quickly as possible (this will mean fastfalling for a few frames but not for as long as possible).

You'll be able to feel it pretty easily with some practice. Even if you don't get it perfect, you'll be doing it so often in normal matches that you'll subconsciously adjust it until it is.

 

[Jackson]

This may just be personal preference, but I really wouldn't recommend practicing at a slower speed. The problem isn't that you can't do the inputs in the right order (which slow motion would help with by letting you confirm it visually), it's that your timing is wrong. At 0.25x speed (or any alternate speed) you're going to improve your timing very little, if at all, compared to just practicing at the speed you'll actually need to perform at. What you're practicing in slow motion is effectively a different technique with a radically different timing to the one you're trying to learn.

I would recommend that you use normal speed. Start with what you're doing now, which is wavedashing and fastfalling just fine but continuing to fastfall for too long; then reduce the amount of time you fastfall for by a little bit at a time until you end up with a timing where you grab the ledge, then play around with timings around that point until you're grabbing the ledge a quickly as possible (this will mean fastfalling for a few frames but not for as long as possible).

You'll be able to feel it pretty easily with some practice. Even if you don't get it prefect, you'll be doing it so often in normal matches that you'll subconsciously adjust it until it is.

Good points, thanks again. Another question, if you will; is fast falling to the ledge even needed with spacies? Or do they fall too fast as is?

 

[Stride]

Good points, thanks again. Another question, if you will; is fast falling to the ledge even needed with spacies? Or do they fall too fast as is?

Spacies benefit from fastfalling to the ledge, just not as much. Frame data is below for a few characters. It doesn't take long to test so I might do the rest of the cast sometime.

This is with a 315°/225° wavedash angle (the corner notch on the controller) on Battlefield, in case that makes any difference. Some of the edge cases might differ by a frame on Yoshi's story or with a really extreme wavedash angle, but I haven't checked.

As you can see: all characters save a considerable amount of frames by fastfalling. Floatier characters save relatively more frames while also being able to fastfall for longer before they drop too low to grab the ledge. Although "floaty" is a pretty nebulous term considering it encompasses falling acceleration, terminal aerial velocity, aerial drift control, fastfalling velocity increase, etc.

Character|Airborne frames without fastfall|Minimum airborne frames with fastfall|Maximum airborne frames with fastfall|Maximum number of frames saved by fastfalling (airborne frames without fastfall - minimum airborne frames)|Leniency when fastfalling (maximum airborne frames - minimum airborne frames)
Fox|9 (grab on 10)|4 (grab on 5)|7 (grab on 8)|5|3
Falco|10 (grab on 11)|4 (grab on 5)|6 (grab on 7)|6|2
Sheik|13 (grab on 14)|5 (grab on 6)|8 (grab on 9)|8|3
Luigi|17 (grab on 18)|6 (grab on 7)|11 (grab on 12)|11|5

The same data in list format below. The format is:
Character
Airborne frames without fastfall
Minimum airborne frames with fastfall
Maximum airborne frames with fastfall
Maximum number of frames saved by fastfalling (airborne frames without fastfall - minimum airborne frames)
Leniency when fastfalling (maximum airborne frames - minimum airborne frames)

Sheik
13 (grab on 14)
5 (grab on 6)
8 (grab on 9)
8
3

Falco
10 (grab on 11)
4 (grab on 5)
6 (grab on 7)
6
2

Fox
9 (grab on 10)
4 (grab on 5)
7 (grab on 8)
5
3

Luigi
17 (grab on 18)
6 (grab on 7)
11 (grab on 12)
11
5

 

[Jackson]

Spacies benefit from fastfalling to the ledge, just not as much. Frame data is below for a few characters. It doesn't take long to test so I might to the rest of the cast sometime.

This is with a 315°/225° wavedash angle (the corner notch on the controller) on Battlefield, in case that makes any difference. Some of the edge cases might differ by a frame on Yoshi's story or with a really extreme wavedash angle, but I haven't checked.

As you can see: all characters save a considerable amount of frames by fastfalling. Floatier characters save relatively more frames while also being able to fastfall for longer before they drop too low to grab the ledge. Although "floaty" is a pretty nebulous term considering it encompasses falling acceleration, terminal aerial velocity, aerial drift control, fastfalling velocity increase, etc.

Character|Airborne frames without fastfall|Minimum airborne frames with fastfall|Maximum airborne frames with fastfall|Maximum number of frames saved by fastfalling (airborne frames without fastfall - minimum airborne frames)|Leniency when fastfalling (maximum airborne frames - minimum airborne frames)
Fox|9 (grab on 10)|4 (grab on 5)|7 (grab on 8)|5|3
Falco|10 (grab on 11)|4 (grab on 5)|6 (grab on 7)|6|2
Sheik|13 (grab on 14)|5 (grab on 6)|8 (grab on 9)|8|3
Luigi|17 (grab on 18)|6 (grab on 7)|11 (grab on 12)|11|5

The same data in list format below. The format is:
Character
Airborne frames without fastfall
Minimum airborne frames with fastfall
Maximum airborne frames with fastfall
Maximum number of frames saved by fastfalling (airborne frames without fastfall - minimum airborne frames)
Leniency when fastfalling (maximum airborne frames - minimum airborne frames)

Sheik
13 (grab on 14)
5 (grab on 6)
8 (grab on 9)
8
3

Falco
10 (grab on 11)
4 (grab on 5)
6 (grab on 7)
6
2

Fox
9 (grab on 10)
4 (grab on 5)
7 (grab on 8)
5
3

Luigi
17 (grab on 18)
6 (grab on 7)
11 (grab on 12)
11
5

Another very in-depth answer, thank you. And I'm getting better at this with Sheik

 

[soap]

practice with marth to see the importance, then practice with fox, he has an even tighter window

then you'll just do it naturally with everybody

 

[Arrestme]

General FF business: Upon first succumbing to "SHFFL fever", make a note to neither underestimate nor forget the better neutral fall spacing & timings. Hard to not habitually FF elsewhere if u go nuts with..ahem.. "SHFFL fever".

This wd business backwards off a ledge, why? Sure FF it & grab faster. But without it u can normal speed WD to Bair / etc. Basically don't get stuck in any winning combination. Muscle memory actually becomes ***** more than anything else & will be your final obstacle before becoming high-skilled. In the case of snatching that ledge from, let's say; across stage, Needle-U-Turn 3/4's of the way there & drift backwards the rest of the way down. Also, I'd suggest not "looping" yourself edge camping with Sheik. Not until you can actually Shino Stall 100%. Same with ledge standoffs when looping FF to DJ fastfallen UpB ledge grabs. Recovering by skipping the DJ & quickly using an Up-B pays out pretty often. But this is beginning to sound like one of my "notes". You can trust me, I'm a Smash Cadet.

TLDR; F u c k.

 

[Stride]

I posted a more complete table in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/wavedash-ledge-grab-frame-data.404871/

 

[dude it's raining]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZYFovQ3vRY