Should counters be like they were in melee

[McDizzle!]

Nothing else short of maybe Mac's KO Punch or Wario's Waft comes even close to that level of absurd power.

And you don't see how that could be over the top broken? Somehow a 'hard read' immediately justifies insta-ko from center stage? You need to work with me here.

No YOU need to work with me here. The Mii managed to hit you with a counter, which means he predicted your actions and punished you accordingly. Maybe you shouldn't use a glass cannon full offense Yoshi if you don't want to be killed at 0%.
P.S.: I don't think you can even USE equipment in tournaments, so it isn't really broken, is it?

 

[Arle Nadja]

The Mii managed to hit you with a counter, which means he predicted your actions and punished you accordingly.

He could've hit me with a reversed warlock punch and it probably wouldn't have been nearly as devastating whilst being much more difficult a move to land. Your point is lost on me.

The risk reward for counter is extremely lopsided. I could've hit him with six of those fairs and it probably wouldn't have killed him. One counter is all he needs.

That's broken.

 

[Talpr1]

He could've hit me with a reversed warlock punch and it probably wouldn't have been nearly as devastating whilst being much more difficult a move to land. Your point is lost on me.

The risk reward for counter is extremely lopsided. I could've hit him with six of those fairs and it probably wouldn't have killed him. One counter is all he needs.

That's broken.

It's not broken because this **** would've never happened without equipment on.

 

[McDizzle!]

It's not broken because this **** would've never happened without equipment on.

EXACTLY. That's what I've been trying to say all along.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

They would be alright if I didn't die at 120% because I jabbed a counter.

 

[McDizzle!]

They would be alright if I didn't die at 120% because I jabbed a counter.

They don't need to be changed at all, dude.

 

[JAZZ_]

Lets face it, anyone who has presented a gripe about counters just sucks at playing against one. next your going to say Samus charge shot is OP if you get beat by it. Or Jiggys rest, or marths tipper, or bowsers Fsmash.

This topic is just silly now,

He could've hit me with a reversed warlock punch and it probably wouldn't have been nearly as devastating whilst being much more difficult a move to land. Your point is lost on me.

The risk reward for counter is extremely lopsided. I could've hit him with six of those fairs and it probably wouldn't have killed him. One counter is all he needs.

That's broken.

No NO NO NO and NOOO... god dang it

the argument is broken in iteslf.
glass cannon yoshi, lets see, super high knock back power and damage with defense of a piece of lint, so light that samus' Nair could kill at the edge at 0% So ANY move is a potential kill move at low percents against a glass canon.

you add a little more knockback in a counter to a move with extremely buffed knockback against an already light character with Negative tolerance to knockback??? NO FREAKIN DUH YOUR DYING.
Im sorry but your mindset is that of a toddler confused about why Dora the explorer is able to talk to her.

Im sorry but i cant help it, your just to dumb to understand a lick of logic thrown your way.

 

[McDizzle!]

Lets face it, anyone who has presented a gripe about counters just sucks at playing against one. case and point, next your going to say Samus charge shot is OP if you get beat by it. Or Jiggys rest, or marths tipper, or bowsers Fsmash.

This topic is just silly now,

No NO NO NO and NOOO... god dang it

the argument is broken in iteslf.
glass cannon yoshi, lets see, super high knock back power and damage with defense of a piece of lint, so light that samus' Nair could kill at the edge at 0% So ANY move is a potential kill move at low percents with a glass canon.

you add a little more knockback in a counter to a move with extremely buffed knockback against an already light character with Negative tolerance to knowback??? NO FREAKIN DUH YOUR DYING.
Im sorry but your mindset is that of a toddler confused about why Dora the explorer is able to talk to her.

Im sorry but i cant help it, your just to dumb to understand a lick of logic thrown your way.

Lol thank you, thank you so much.

 

[Arle Nadja]

ANY move is a potential kill move at low percents with a glass canon

That's not even remotely true. You're lying and throwing around oddly specific insults to derail the discussion.

As I said before, this is not the case and my Yoshi was perfectly capable of surviving the vast majority of hits at 0% from center stage. There's no reason counter needs to hit that much harder than the attack it's blocking. It skews the risk reward greatly in the counter's favor if used sparingly.

 

[Talpr1]

That's not even remotely true. You're lying and throwing around oddly specific insults to derail the discussion.

As I said before, this is not the case and my Yoshi was perfectly capable of surviving the vast majority of hits at 0% from center stage. There's no reason counter needs to hit that much harder than the attack it's blocking. It skews the risk reward greatly in the counter's favor if used sparingly.

What equipment was the Mii Swordfighter using? It's likely that he was using offensive boosting pieces as well. Even then, the game is balanced without equipment takem into account, if you're complaining about dying at 0% with glass cannon Yoshi you might as well complain about how broken Crazy Orders farming Mario is.

 

[McDizzle!]

That's not even remotely true. You're lying and throwing around oddly specific insults to derail the discussion.

As I said before, this is not the case and my Yoshi was perfectly capable of surviving the vast majority of hits at 0% from center stage. There's no reason counter needs to hit that much harder than the attack it's blocking. It skews the risk reward greatly in the counter's favor if used sparingly.

And how far was Yoshi launched when he did get hit? I'd wager a good distance. And how much knockback does the fair have in full offense? I would say quite a bit. Now, a counter does knockback depending on how powerful the move is.

Now, let's put that together. High knockback attack + low defense + an easily baitable risk reward move that does damage and knockback based on the attack it is countering (counter) = Early kill. Again, what did you expect.

 

[JAZZ_]

And how far was Yoshi launched when he did get hit? I'd wager a good distance. And how much knockback does the fair have in full offense? I would say quite a bit. Now, a counter does knockback depending on how powerful the move is.

Now, let's put that together. High knockback attack + low defense + an easily baitable risk reward move that does damage and knockback based on the attack it is countering (counter) = Early kill. Again, what did you expect.

kittens and rainbow, thats what they probably were expecting. Its easy math to everyone else.

That's not even remotely true. You're lying and throwing around oddly specific insults to derail the discussion.

As I said before, this is not the case and my Yoshi was perfectly capable of surviving the vast majority of hits at 0% from center stage. There's no reason counter needs to hit that much harder than the attack it's blocking. It skews the risk reward greatly in the counter's favor if used sparingly.

since you clearly enjoy equipment why not rig it to where you dont fight with -180 defense
PROBLEM SOLVED

 

[Arle Nadja]

since you clearly enjoy equipment why not rig it to where you dont fight with -180 defense

I'm pretty sure that's not even possible. My Yoshi's negative defense was just a fraction of that, so... Could you not? With the making random stuff up and insulting people? You've made posts like that twice now and it's getting very hard for me to find any way to reply to you that isn't circular.

Obviously, I stopped using offensive equipment pretty much immediately after realizing that counter alone more or less destroyed it's viability. However, if you were hoping to argue that counter is not broken you might want to avoid bringing up the fact that it single handedly turns 1/3rd of all equipment into a gimmick. That's... not a good thing. No other move in the game does that.

 

[Talpr1]

I'm pretty sure that's not even possible. My Yoshi's negative defense was just a fraction of that, so... Could you not? With the making random stuff up and insulting people? You've made posts like that twice now and it's getting very hard for me to find any way to reply to you that isn't circular.

Obviously, I stopped using offensive equipment pretty much immediately after realizing that counter alone more or less destroyed it's viability. However, if you were hoping to argue that counter is not broken you might want to avoid bringing up the fact that it single handedly turns 1/3rd of all equipment into a gimmick. That's... not a good thing. No other move in the game does that.

How about we stop to talk about balance in a meta(the equipment meta)that isn't supposed to be balanced?

 

[Arle Nadja]

How about we stop to talk about balance in a meta(the equipment meta)that isn't supposed to be balanced?

I mean, there's a world outside of tournaments. The thing about counter is that I don't think 0% to death from center stage is fun whether you're a casual or not. I just think that if it the damage / knockback ramp up was a bit less strong it would remove some of these balance issues and ultimately improve the game with virtually no consequence. That's all.

It's not like it's ruining the game for me, but I do think it would be an improvement.

 

[JAZZ_]

I'm pretty sure that's not even possible. My Yoshi's negative defense was just a fraction of that, so... Could you not? With the making random stuff up and insulting people? You've made posts like that twice now and it's getting very hard for me to find any way to reply to you that isn't circular.

Obviously, I stopped using offensive equipment pretty much immediately after realizing that counter alone more or less destroyed it's viability. However, if you were hoping to argue that counter is not broken you might want to avoid bringing up the fact that it single handedly turns 1/3rd of all equipment into a gimmick. That's... not a good thing. No other move in the game does that.

lets see,
villagers pocket does that

look at it this way
You cant argue about a core mechanic in the game being broken when your point of reference is a time when you used a modified character. As soon as a player modifies the stats it alters the game balance TREMENDOUSLY. I entered tournament mode in 1v1 customs For Glory (why is this a thing) and swept everyone, no contest, because the Samus set had extreme attack value

Charge Shot ATE THROUGH EVERYTHING.

How ever.. Is Samus core mechanic, her charge shot, OP and unfairly broken because it breaks shields at half charge when I MOD it? NO
Anyone will tell you Samus is a flawed character and the fact she cant charge in the air makes it the worst charge move in the game.
The simple fact is counter is a tool, and in the main competitive core of the game is NOT OP, or BROKEN, or FLAWED. what may be giving you trouble is that your opponent is reading you too well and to you it seems unfair.
to me this is a petty issue, one that needs not be addressed. Counters are tools, if used well you get rewarded. If used Sloppily you get punished. Like any move, or attack in the game, theres a risk if you miss (except for shiek and the like :[ ) reward if you hit.

If you want try playing with a counter for a change, Its not as OP as it looks, and it may show you the game is much more structurally sound in this area then you once thought.

There are far more troubling things in the game to worry about then a counter, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U *cough cough*

Seriously though, try playing with a counter, then comeback and state your findings.

 

[Arle Nadja]

The simple fact is counter is a tool, and in the main competitive core of the game is NOT OP, or BROKEN, or FLAWED. what may be giving you trouble is that your opponent is reading you too well and to you it seems unfair.

Of course, there are multiple ways to enjoy the game and I can enjoy and criticize both can't I? This thread is, after all, not in the competitive discussion forum right? As I mentioned to Talpr1, I feel like a nerf in the damage rampup would make For Fun play funner without really impacting competitive play. That's pretty much the only reason I'd like to see this changed, because I feel like there's virtually no consequence for changing it.

I like to play Lucina and Roy sometimes, but it's been a very long time since I last played with equipment on. I wouldn't want to cheese people like that anyway. That wouldn't feel good for me and it'd probably make people ragequit and not want to play with me anymore, lol. But yeah. I'd agree it's not OP... in competitive play.

 

[CCTANK93]

Of course, there are multiple ways to enjoy the game and I can enjoy and criticize both can't I? This thread is, after all, not in the competitive discussion forum right? As I mentioned to Talpr1, I feel like a nerf in the damage rampup would make For Fun play funner without really impacting competitive play. That's pretty much the only reason I'd like to see this changed, because I feel like there's virtually no consequence for changing it.

I like to play Lucina and Roy sometimes, but it's been a very long time since I last played with equipment on. I wouldn't want to cheese people like that anyway. That wouldn't feel good for me and it'd probably make people ragequit and not want to play with me anymore, lol. But yeah. I'd agree it's not OP... in competitive play.

Well to be fair, isn't for fun play meant for crazy situations like that. I mean I was playing with friends and we decided to play with equipment on. I was Lucina and I countered my friend's forward smash from Bowser and he had +200 attack. My other friend, who was Shulk, decided to jump in and counter my counter. This lead to the most hilarious double KO is ever seen. I mean one really can't complain about something being broken when you decide to play with settings that make the game broken. I mainly play no items, 1 on 1 but when I'm playing for fun, we love to let crazy things happen wether they are "OP" or not.

 

[Sünta]

Yeah the counters are pretty silly in this game for some reason. I agree with having it as it was but with a tiny buff because I believe that a counter should just be a little punish, not a game winner.

 

[Arle Nadja]

Well to be fair, isn't for fun play meant for crazy situations like that.

While absurd things can certainly be fun, there's a line to be drawn where something crazy becomes over centralizing and loses it's amusement value. Counter could still do things like what you described, but maybe not at 0% from center stage with only one person countering a fair. I believe my Yoshi had about +130'ish attack and -40'ish Defense because I used one defensive item to mitigate the defense issue a little whilst giving him a walk speed boost. So in hindsight it wasn't even technically a full offense build.

I mean one really can't complain about something being broken when you decide to play with settings that make the game broken.

Well, why not? Is my opinion less valid than the next person's? All I'm saying is that I think the game would be better off with an adjustment to the damage ramp up. Right now it seems to scale at a flat rate. I think it would be tamer if there were some diminishing returns to keep it from getting slightly too crazy in certain common situations.

 

[xDizxy]

If you play dk, bowser or ganon or any strong character, and you go up against someone who has an counter, you're basically screwed.

 

[JAZZ_]

If you play dk, bowser or ganon or any strong character, and you go up against someone who has an counter, you're basically screwed.

no you are not, Bait the counter, go for grabs, find your opponents pattern and punish, done and done. trust me, I play a bottom tier character thats broken. Patience and smart play make counters look like someone flinging confetti at you. I personally love fighting people who have counters, or reflectors, high risk high reward defensive moves are EASY to punish if your ready for them

 

[xDizxy]

no you are not, Bait the counter, go for grabs, find your opponents pattern and punish, done and done. trust me, I play a bottom tier character thats broken. Patience and smart play make counters look like someone flinging confetti at you. I personally love fighting people who have counters, or reflectors, high risk high reward defensive moves are EASY to punish if your ready for them

I don't play those characters, I was talking to those who do play them. Luckily the only strong character I play is bowser jr. Also there's some people who can predict the future and counter all the time. I'm not talking about those who spam counters and you're going to tell me to get better but you shouldn't be forced to do extremely well for such a tatic, not everyone wants to play seriously. Counters should do 10-15%. That's my opinion.

 

[JAZZ_]

While absurd things can certainly be fun, there's a line to be drawn where something crazy becomes over centralizing and loses it's amusement value. Counter could still do things like what you described, but maybe not at 0% from center stage with only one person countering a fair. I believe my Yoshi had about +130'ish attack and -40'ish Defense because I used one defensive item to mitigate the defense issue a little whilst giving him a walk speed boost. So in hindsight it wasn't even technically a full offense build.



Well, why not? Is my opinion less valid than the next person's? All I'm saying is that I think the game would be better off with an adjustment to the damage ramp up. Right now it seems to scale at a flat rate. I think it would be tamer if there were some diminishing returns to keep it from getting slightly too crazy in certain common situations.

Your arent considering Mii's own buffs with equipment. plus yoshi has insane knockback in all his moves adding + 130 is OP and if bounced back with a smidge more will kill normal yoshi given he's kinda light, but with -40 defense, sorry buddy thats gonna hurt. and suppose the mii had just +70 equipment in attack that just makes it a solid kill. the way I see it, you shouldnt be hounding a move thats fine in all other modes for this, Turn your head to the customs themselves, theyre the sole issue your faced with here

 

[JAZZ_]

I don't play those characters, I was talking to those who do play them. Luckily the only strong character I play is bowser jr. Also there's some people who can predict the future and counter all the time. I'm not talking about those who spam counters and you're going to tell me to get better but you shouldn't be forced to do extremely well for such a tatic, not everyone wants to play seriously. Counters should do 10-15%. That's my opinion.

you dont have to play extremely well dude, geez, if they spam just watch them spam. Im not telling you you need to get EXTREMELY well to compete. and its not predicting the future either.

In a game where shielding and grabing are essential the counter seems like a bad move to throw out. Good smash dont predict, good smashers first observe then apply what they observed.
all you need to do against a character with a defensive counter is to not play so hefty to start, observe what they do if you run at them, if you jump approach them, things like that. and aggressive player wont use counter hardly at all unless their on the backfoot. a defessive player will wait for you to come to them and bait out an attack to counter.
in a game where nearly every character can grab throw combo %40-50 in off one grab a counter seems stupid to throw out.

No one is saying you must be a wizard to deal with counters, you just have to play intelligently by watching how they react to you and then switch things up as needed. I feel like im giving a lecture on Smash 101

seriously counter is not op, doesnt need a nerf, and can get you killed if you miss the counter (especially in this game).

 

[McDizzle!]

you dont have to play extremely well dude, geez, if they spam just watch them spam. Im not telling you you need to get EXTREMELY well to compete. and its not predicting the future either.

In a game where shielding and grabing are essential the counter seems like a bad move to throw out. Good smash dont predict, good smashers first observe then apply what they observed.
all you need to do against a character with a defensive counter is to not play so hefty to start, observe what they do if you run at them, if you jump approach them, things like that. and aggressive player wont use counter hardly at all unless their on the backfoot. a defessive player will wait for you to come to them and bait out an attack to counter.
in a game where nearly every character can grab throw combo %40-50 in off one grab a counter seems stupid to throw out.

No one is saying you must be a wizard to deal with counters, you just have to play intelligently by watching how they react to you and then switch things up as needed. I feel like im giving a lecture on Smash 101

seriously counter is not op, doesnt need a nerf, and can get you killed if you miss the counter (especially in this game).

People just don't get it, do they? We've said the SAME THING almost 7 times now...

 

[Arle Nadja]

the way I see it, you shouldnt be hounding a move thats fine in all other modes for this, Turn your head to the customs themselves, theyre the sole issue your faced with here

I already know how the mechanics work. See, the way I see it anything that does 0% to death that isn't a final smash, gimp or edge guard is simply broken straight up. That's my personal opinion and I'm sticking to that. I also feel that nerfing counter is a much simpler solution than redesigning customs to be balanced against that one move. After all, there is literally no consequence for nerfing it. None. Zero. It would fix a problem without causing any new ones.

I mean, when you have a free fix to a problem with no consequences... Why not, exactly? Simply give counter diminishing returns and it will make it less crazy frustrating for fun matches whilst being basically just as strong in normal play.

People just don't get it, do they? We've said the SAME THING almost 7 times now...

One does not simply enter a discussion thread and ask the others to stop discussing and agree with them. This is after all a matter of opinion, not cold logic. There is no one correct answer. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[McDizzle!]

I already know how the mechanics work. See, the way I see it anything that does 0% to death that isn't a final smash, gimp or edge guard is simply broken straight up. That's my personal opinion and I'm sticking to that. I also feel that nerfing counter is a much simpler solution than redesigning customs to be balanced against that one move. After all, there is literally no consequence for nerfing it. None. Zero. It would fix a problem without causing any new ones.

I mean, when you have a free fix to a problem with no consequences... Why not, exactly? Simply give counter diminishing returns and it will make it less crazy frustrating for fun matches whilst being basically just as strong in normal play.



One does not simply enter a discussion thread and ask the others to stop discussing and agree with them. This is after all a matter of opinion, not cold logic. There is no one correct answer. Wouldn't you agree?

Um... It IS logic... You're running a glass cannon Yoshi and you expect to survive a move that amplifies knockback... It's not an opinion to say it's broken, it's simply being salty and completely failing to see how your argument is flawed.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

If you play dk, bowser or ganon or any strong character, and you go up against someone who has an counter, you're basically screwed.

Correction: If you were to play with those characters against someone who uses counter, then you are basically screwed, considering that you fall for situations that can be easily worked around.

You seriously don't know what you are talking about here which makes us even more wary about what you have to say about Counters.

One does not simply enter a discussion thread and ask the others to stop discussing and agree with them. This is after all a matter of opinion, not cold logic. There is no one correct answer. Wouldn't you agree?

Opinion or not, it doesn't make the statement seem less misinformed. An opinion that lacks common knowledge or bases its foundation on a misguided premise is bound to be flawed more than others that have a solid reasoning behind it; you know kinda like how TC is doing. "The Sun is cold", "Let's jump off this bridge!" are examples of opinions that are wrong or just bad.

When you do a counter you commit yourself to a hard read it is actually riskier for the user than for the opponent. And of course the damage you will receive back depends on the counter's multiplier and the move you used; if you commit yourself to do a hard hitting attack at a considerably high percentage then you must gauge the moment to avoid being a predictable and consider the possibility that the opponent might punish you with a counter. Working around this is really simple because throwing a counter just like that is pretty much a free opportunity for your opponent, but if you succeed because you anticipated your opponent then you get rewarded; I say it's fair because at the end of the day a counter can only work if you overextended and went a for a predictable move. In Mii's case, it's counter multiplier is 1.25x which isn't even that much.

 

[LancerStaff]

Counters have a counter of sorts in . Multihit moves such as, well, half of Pit's moves can just outright beat counters, and if not you took about .3% (decimal intentional) due to the counter only multiplying one hit and can punish many counters even though you were hit by them. Pit also has advantageous matchups against anybody with a counter besides maybe Lucario and Greninja but his isn't exactly spamable and already does set damage. (Although I think Pit's at least even in these matchups but whatever.) Ryu's Focus Attack obviously chokes hard on multihit moves.

If not Pit then you have characters with command grabs like (?) and conveniently beat counters with ease. Like, a fifth of the cast has ways to just outright destroy counters.

 

[Xermo]

After all, there is literally no consequence for nerfing it. None. Zero. It would fix a problem without causing any new ones.

Except you're making an already unsafe and niche move even more useless outside of casual play.
Even then, casuals will still only reap little benefits from throwing out a move that wont kill and will only leave them vulnerable to attack from players not running into their counter.

Also, I don't see how you have any room to consider calling counter broken if your 14-15% damaging attack with spike knockback is buffed by a +130 badge and you have -40 defense, hitting a counter that multiplies by 1.25x with potential attack customs on (if the mii had any).
For sake of argument, I ran a quick +61atk / -44def yoshi, and f-air dealt 21% off of the sourspot hit (from 15% originally). I'm not even surprised you'd die when the attack would now deal around 27-28%. You were pretty much throwing out mini warlock punches and expecting to live with negative defense.

Don't you think it's a bit silly to base your opinion on a situation that's objectively going to be broken when in actuality there's no counter that can kill at zero without a special set up.

 

[Arle Nadja]

An opinion that lacks common knowledge or bases its foundation on a misguided premise is bound to be flawed more than others that have a solid reasoning behind it

As I... just finished saying literally in my last post I understand the mechanics just fine. I know how it works and understand that they can be played around. I still don't care for for them. I've even suggested a simple mathematical solution to the problem I have with those mechanics that would have no impact on counter's viability in competitive play. (Linear growth vs Logarithmic growth)

...Y'know, for if Nintendo listened to random nerds like me on fan forums~ ;o

I don't think my premise is misguided either. Do I even have a premise? I thought I was just giving my opinion and explaining why I have it. Maybe you can explain that one to me.

In Mii's case, it's counter multiplier is 1.25x which isn't even that much.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken Mii's counter is the third strongest in the game behind Roy's and Shulk's in terms of it's multiplier. Roy has 1.35x, Shulk has 1.30x and everyone else has 1.20x.

That's not including the freshness multiplier, which scales with the counter multiplier. Mii Swordsman gets an effective 1.31x multiplier after freshness. The result is counter just going out of control and becoming insanely powerful in equipment matches, skewing the risk reward grossly towards their favor. Getting one or two hard reads in a battle is usually pretty easy.

It's not an opinion to say it's broken, it's simply being salty and completely failing to see how your argument is flawed.

I don't feel like we're on the same page here. Let me define what an opinion is.
"an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something." - Oxford American College Dictionary

My opinion is not flawed. You just disagree with it, which is okay.

Except you're making an already unsafe and niche move even more useless outside of casual play.

Nnnno. The solution I offered was for counter to use logarithmic growth for it's ramp up instead of a flat rate. As in, this type of growth:

What this means is that in normal play, where the damage being dished out is much less absurd, you'd see little to no difference. Possibly even slightly more damage/knockback. However, once people start stacking on offensive equipment and getting absurd the growth tapers off a bit. I just think it would make the fun game mode a bit more fun, personally.

 

[McDizzle!]

That seems pretty cool... It's a good compromise.

 

[LancerStaff]

Smash could use some caps/lower scaling on multiple multipliers like this, rage + smash vulnerability also comes to mind, but ultimately it's not a big deal.

 

[Buffoon]

Lol no what are YOU talking about. It clearly states in the wiki 7% damage.

I believe Xermo is referring to Roy's Melee counter, which had some VERY nasty knockback at higher percents in addition to making your opponent suddenly drop at an awkward angle.